Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[MeoTwister5]

The idealist and the realist are butting heads again, as they have been since the dawn of mankind. With Kyoko sort of falling into the same trap that Sayaka and Mami did in the past, Urobuchi is slowly thinning the ranks of the idealist MGs and leaving realists like Homura, who is also the last known MG in the immediate vicinity.

The episode again asks whether the ends justify the means. I understand entropy differently, as a chaotic and destructive gain of energy rather than the loss that Inkyubeytor describes, so as to how his short explanation is meant to validate his methods needs more explanation. So far "entropy" feels a bit like a copout. It's going to feel like a shallow and incomplete reason unless we hear more as to what entropy is defined as in the show's universe. It feels like a copout right now because the only way to in/validate that Ikyubeytor is being a utilitarian is if you could measure it, and since he says it's on a universal scale, that's just too massive a system to even scratch the surface of. Even real world physics can only suggest and predict heat death of the universe, everything else is just so massive to really know for sure.

Ethically speaking we can at least say now that Inkyubeytor has some sort of moral code that seems to be systematized for his whole race/culture, so it isn't simply a personal subjective one for himself. Again, justifiability and good/bad/right/wrong is still another problem altogether. It's still being pitted against Madoka's personal beliefs, and honestly her beliefs have been on the losing end of the spectrum since Mami kicked the bucket, so for what it's worth you have to give her props for sticking to her guns this long even if you could call it naive, stupid or even downright dangerous.

There is something I didn't find that was clear: was the cause in the increase in entropy due to Inkyubeytor's race themselves and they're using the MGs as fuel to rectify the the outcomes of their own actions, or is this more or less something due to the collective existence of everything?

(everything else after this is speculation so I'll take it to the other thread later.)

[Fandal]

If Kyuube is right and Madoka is the key to saving the universe for whatever reason it's broken (my guess is his race broke it and he's not saying why his race broke it) and he's trying to turn Madoka into a magical girl on that dangerous night.....

What happens if Madoka dies in that dangerous night? Will Kyuube stop Madoka from dying and thus cancel the earth invasion? If this is the case, is he bluffing? Will he force a contract?

[guenthar]

Kyuubey is pretty much saying that his people are using the girls as a power source for their technology so that they slow down the rapid disbursement of energy that they are causing through their high use of energy which was going to destroy the universe. They are saving the universe from themselves by using human girls as a power source so it is entirely for selfish reasons when they could try to lower their power usage instead.

PS. The whole dispersal of energy is scientific fact and all energy in the universe is dispersing all of the time and eventually planets, solar systems, and galaxies will be pulled apart by this and it would be the end of the universe. The problem with Kyuubeys description is that this won't happen for billions of years. If their universe is the same as ours that means their extreme usage of energy is causing this dispersal to accelerate drastically so the tearing apart of the universe is going to happen much sooner.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

"Unimportant"?
To whom?

QB knows that no Magical Girl was ever pleased about the truth concerning the soul gem. So the only reason he refuses to mention it to fresh victims, was because he knows it would affect his ability to get contracts.

Only important information are left out. That's why they are left out; because to screw people over, you need to tell only the nice bits of the story. You know, like how every girl QB ever contracted have either been killed or became Witches.

It's like finding out that every patient who visited a certain doctor have all died, or that every business who borrowed money from a certain bank have all gone bankrupt. It is important information.

You are preaching to the choir, hence why I put "Unimportant" in quotes. He leaves out what would basically make his sales pitch hard to swallow. All he cares about is the contract, so that he keeps the cycle going and that his people gets the energy they desire. What I want to know is that if the entropy thing was caused by his people. That would have been another inconvenient truth he would have neglected to inform.

Originally Posted by guenthar

Kyuubey is pretty much saying that his people are using the girls as a power source for their technology so that they slow down the rapid disbursement of energy that they are causing through their high use of energy which was going to destroy the universe. They are saving the universe from themselves by using human girls as a power source so it is entirely for selfish reasons when they could try to lower their power usage instead.

Exactly what I think as well.

[DangoMochi]

So what's going to happen to Sayaka's body now? I'm guessing Homura will probably attempt to get rid of it and Madoka will be unable to prevent it from happening.

I'm curious what Homura meant about Sayaka's body being trouble.

[Fandal]

Originally Posted by guenthar

Kyuubey is pretty much saying that his people are using the girls as a power source for their technology so that they slow down the rapid disbursement of energy that they are causing through their high use of energy which was going to destroy the universe. They are saving the universe from themselves by using human girls as a power source so it is entirely for selfish reasons when they could try to lower their power usage instead.

PS. The whole dispersal of energy is scientific fact and all energy in the universe is dispersing all of the time and eventually planets, solar systems, and galaxies will be pulled apart by this and it would be the end of the universe. The problem with Kyuubeys description is that this won't happen for billions of years. If their universe is the same as ours that means their extreme usage of energy is causing this dispersal to accelerate drastically so the tearing apart of the universe is going to happen much sooner.

If this is true, I wonder what they are using all that energy for? Since this is a Japanese Anime, my guess is they want to be "god".

[Proto]

I'm curious what Homura meant about Sayaka's body being trouble.

Hey girls, what are you guys doing with the dead body of someone reported as missing some days ago?

[guenthar]

Whatever they are doing it would take an astronomical amount of power to have that effect and would be in the range of billions of suns worth of power.

[Hagoshod]

After seeing the subbed version of Kyubey's conversation with Madoka revealing what he is, why magical girls exist, and what he plans to do, I'm officially changing my "this feels like the second half of My HiME rewritten so it actually makes sense, but it may just be a coincidence" theory. Gen Urobuchi literally had to have sat down, watched My HiME, recognized all of the exact same stuff I thought was stupid and forced, and intentionally made it his primary objective to revise it so it actually worked. There's no other explanation.

Barring Homura's / Mashiro's still-unexplained reasoning for refusing to just tell everyone Kyubey / Nagi is using them to avert the Walpurgisnacht / HiME Festival (and there's still room to make that work), this show is amazing.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Heh Bokurano reference with the chairs.

Yep, that was my very thought as well. Beautifully done, Shinbo-san.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by DangoMochi

So what's going to happen to Sayaka's body now? I'm guessing Homura will probably attempt to get rid of it and Madoka will be unable to prevent it from happening.

I'm curious what Homura meant about Sayaka's body being trouble.

Time to initiate QB's body disposal functions.... om nom nom nom...

[serenade_beta]

Aryah... Anko... I mean, Kyouko bit the dust too...
Not only did she take down (maybe?) Sayaka, but she also prevented herself from turning into a witch too! How smart!
Still, dang... Madoka, you a Shinigami? Everyone who tries to guide you are dying though? Be it Mami previously, Kyouko this time... *whistle*

Q-Beh...
What he said reminds me of Bokurano... Koemushi...

[Triple_R]

Perhaps I was wrong about plot twists...


Just finished watching this episode.

And I have to say that, while it has good theatrics and good character moments and good artwork and animation, I'm not fond of this plot direction.

The whole entropy issue (as explained by Kyubey) comes off as rather out of left field, particularly for this late juncture in the anime. It's certainly not anything that I read or heard anybody speculate about beforehand, and to bring in such a heavy sci-fi feel as this (an alien race using humans in order to delay univeral entropy) in an anime that thus far has been about magical girls and Faust analogies kind of seems like a bit of a weird twist to me.

I mean, this is now starting to feel like a classic Star Trek: TNG plot to me, albeit with magical girls in place of the crew of the Enterprise.

The central ethical and moral dilemma being raised in this episode is similarly comparable to the sorts of "out there" moral delimmas that tend to typify sci-fi in general, and Star Trek specifically.

I could debate it, from either side really, but that's almost beside the point. It just feels out of place here to me. I think that if you're going to mix sci-fi and magical fantasy like this, then it's probably good to do it in an up-front way and from the very beginning. Not introducing it this late in an anime's plotline.

It's possible, of course, that Kyubey is lying about the whole entropy issue. I almost hope that he is, really, since I'm not fond of this plot direction for this anime if he's telling the truth.


Witch Sayaka was a resounding success at least. Loved the symphony orchestra feel to it. It's now abundantly clear how deeply Sayaka loved Kamijo. He's clearly the maestro of her heart, and was the same for her witch form.

I'm going to give this 7/10 because sheer technical merit here probably deserves at least that much, but I'm not fond of the plot direction right now.

[cat_monster]

Originally Posted by scr

SHAFT can make some really serious works. Urobuchi Gen butchers the characters. Kajiura Yuki makes dark-atmosphered music (mostly; some exceptions exist). But you forget that we have Aoki Ume. When the proverbial Pandora's box loose all its hells, Hope remains at the bottom.

Ume-sensei.

SHAFT is a master of a restaurant.
Gen wrote a new recipe.
Kajiura has prepared the seasoning.
Ume-sensei prepared the ingredients before cooking.

Sad, but Ume-sensei can do nothing now...

[Proto]

What he said reminds me of Bokurano... Koemushi...

Yeah, the chair motif in Madoka's room remindem me of Bokurano

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps I was wrong about plot twists...


Just finished watching this episode.

And I have to say that, while it has good theatrics and good character moments and good artwork and animation, I'm not fond of this plot direction.

The whole entropy issue (as explained by Kyubey) comes off as rather out of left field, particularly for this late juncture in the anime. It's certainly not anything that I read or heard anybody speculate about beforehand, and to bring in such a heavy sci-fi feel as this (an alien race using humans in order to delay univeral entropy) in an anime that thus far has been about magical girls and Faust analogies kind of seems like a bit of a weird twist to me.

I mean, this is now starting to feel like a classic Star Trek: TNG plot to me, albeit with magical girls in place of the crew of the Enterprise.

The central ethical and moral dilemma being raised in this episode is similarly comparable to the sorts of "out there" moral delimmas that tend to typify sci-fi in general, and Star Trek specifically.

I could debate it, from either side really, but that's almost beside the point. It just feels out of place here to me. I think that if you're going to mix sci-fi and magical fantasy like this, then it's probably good to do it in an up-front way and from the very beginning. Not introducing it this late in an anime's plotline.

It's possible, of course, that Kyubey is lying about the whole entropy issue. I almost hope that he is, really, since I'm not fond of this plot direction for this anime if he's telling the truth.


Witch Sayaka was a resounding success at least. Loved the symphony orchestra feel to it. It's now abundantly clear how deeply Sayaka loved Kamijo. He's clearly the maestro of her heart, and was the same for her witch form.

I'm going to give this 7/10 because sheer technical merit here probably deserves at least that much, but I'm not fond of the plot direction rigt now.

I haven't given up hope yet lol. I think this is a big step forward in plot actually. Many things have become clear now, and I am further reinforced that this is a story about Madoka's coming of age and the concept of light overcoming dark.

Lol, this is the mahou shoujo version of Gurren Lagann

[raruku]

such madness



and there're still 3 eps, with 2 characters left.


think about plot expansion ??

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps I was wrong about plot twists...


Just finished watching this episode.

And I have to say that, while it has good theatrics and good character moments and good artwork and animation, I'm not fond of this plot direction.

The whole entropy issue (as explained by Kyubey) comes off as rather out of left field, particularly for this late juncture in the anime. It's certainly not anything that I read or heard anybody speculate about beforehand, and to bring in such a heavy sci-fi feel as this (an alien race using humans in order to delay univeral entropy) in an anime that thus far has been about magical girls and Faust analogies kind of seems like a bit of a weird twist to me.

I mean, this is now starting to feel like a classic Star Trek: TNG plot to me, albeit with magical girls in place of the crew of the Enterprise.

The central ethical and moral dilemma being raised in this episode is similarly comparable to the sorts of "out there" moral delimmas that tend to typify sci-fi in general, and Star Trek specifically.

I could debate it, from either side really, but that's almost beside the point. It just feels out of place here to me. I think that if you're going to mix sci-fi and magical fantasy like this, then it's probably good to do it in an up-front way and from the very beginning. Not introducing it this late in an anime's plotline.

It's possible, of course, that Kyubey is lying about the whole entropy issue. I almost hope that he is, really, since I'm not fond of this plot direction for this anime if he's telling the truth.


Witch Sayaka was a resounding success at least. Loved the symphony orchestra feel to it. It's now abundantly clear how deeply Sayaka loved Kamijo. He's clearly the maestro of her heart, and was the same for her witch form.

I'm going to give this 7/10 because sheer technical merit here probably deserves at least that much, but I'm not fond of the plot direction right now.

What is this, last episode people were raging about how things were predictable and now when no one predicted entropy we get this? Creators just can't win.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The whole entropy issue (as explained by Kyubey) comes off as rather out of left field, particularly for this late juncture in the anime. It's certainly not anything that I read or heard anybody speculate about beforehand, and to bring in such a heavy sci-fi feel as this (an alien race using humans in order to delay univeral entropy) in an anime that thus far has been about magical girls and Faust analogies kind of seems like a bit of a weird twist to me.

I find this reaction rather strange. For some reason I thought you were going to like this development, but I guess I was wrong .

Kyube was already obviously a non human entity, something beyond the girl's understanding. He basically was not of this world already. It seems rather logical that we were led the development that he came from somewhere else in the universe.

People already speculated that he had an ulterior motive to contracting magical girls beyond simply "lets stop witches that are causing harm!" This fits right in with those sorts of speculations, which I myself also did give repeatedly... So you really can't say that no one predicted any thing of the like. The exact ulterior motive, sure, but we speculated he had an agenda that was of his own self-benefit more than anything.

And th emotive he has is such a fantastic one, if he is speaking the truth. It further illustrates how he is non-human and operates on principles that cause great discomfort to us. It fits his character perfectly.

And all the while poeple have been trying to bring in Faust analogies into the picture, while they aren't exactly accurate...

Despite his scholarly eminence, Faust is bored and disappointed. He decides to call on the Devil for further knowledge and magic powers with which to indulge all the pleasure and knowledge of the world. In response, the Devil's representative, Mephistopheles, appears. He makes a bargain with Faust: Mephistopheles will serve Faust with his magic powers for a term of years, but at the end of the term, the devil will claim Faust's soul and Faust will be eternally damned. The term usually stipulated in the early tales is 24 years.

Faust, and the adjective Faustian, are often used to describe an arrangement in which an ambitious person surrenders moral integrity in order to achieve power and success: the proverbial "deal with the devil". The terms can also refer to an unquenchable thirst for knowledge.

The thing is, the girls like Sayaka and Kyoko, didn't actually believe they were sacrificial moral integrity. They just thought they were sacrificing themselves for the greater good. I find it hard to relate the two.

I think the connections between Madoka and Faust earlier on, were pretty weak personally.
------------

Also one more point that I find very important. Another magical girl show Nanoha, had many different worlds. Yuuno was practically an alien to the planet Earth. It's not like magical girl shows before haven't tampered with the idea of other worlds, or other places in the universe.

[therationalpi]

A lot of the story going forward seems pretty clear to me. It will be revealed that Homura went back in time because Madoka becoming a witch was the end of the world. Her goal was to stop Madoka from making the pact. Said pact was made by Madoka to stop the Walpurgis night. Homura's plan from the beginning was to stop the Walpurgis night before Madoka got involved, while stopping anything that would cause Madoka to prematurely accept the contract (and also several things out of good will, she's not the cold calculator that Kyuubey is). Kyuubey figured this out, as we saw when he said that Kyouko's death facilitated that end.

The question is, who will succeed and who will fail?