Claymore Chapter 105

[Shiek927]

It's more then those three: its no doubt every single awakened being that loses themseilves temporarily before grasping themselves. The waves of emotion and power that spread through you has been described thoroughly and probably affect them all.

[Joe_fh]

Probably true but there was no evidence to support that (that happens to everyone) and I wanted to play it safe Though even half-awakened claymores mentioned the urges that come with passing the limit and that's not even 90%..
For example there was no indication that Rosemary went on a rampage...but there was no indication she didn't (and it was a bonus chapter that was there just to show us how crazy powerfull Teresa was comapred to an AO so I doubt it's any indication of anything other than it's intended purpose)

[clarakiss~]

i always took it as when they were all claymores, they ate so little. because of that, their yoma side hunger grew and grew without realizing it.

but when they finally awakened, they felt that intense hunger which they weren't able to detect as a claymore. at least that's what i think.

[Aimless]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

It's more then those three: its no doubt every single awakened being that loses themseilves temporarily before grasping themselves. The waves of emotion and power that spread through you has been described thoroughly and probably affect them all.

"Probably," sure; I'll grant you that. However, we only have three examples of an actual awakening presented to us in the manga - Prissy, Ophelia and Katea (whose awakened life was so short she really doesn't qualify). All of the rest have been presented fait accompli; even Luciela's awakening is seen only in the aftermath. That's a rather small sample size to work from; especially considering the evidence to the contrary that's out there.

Even Ophelia's awakening draws into question this thesis. Sure, she was not exactly sane post-awakening (not that she could have been called sane pre-awakening, either), but random musing about a desire for guts does not a rampage make. Certainly not a rampage in the Priscilla sense of the word.

Next, consider the example of Rosemary. As much as I hate her guts (and will deny her claim to Abyssal status until the day I die), she was by any reckoning a strong awakened. Furthermore, all evidence suggests that not only did she not rampage upon awakening, she also managed to either retain her sanity through the process or regain it almost immediately afterwards. After all, she managed to successfully fool her handler into believing she was still a warrior after having awakened; otherwise, he would never have accepted a black card from her. Had she rampaged or otherwise gone through an extend period of insanity, it is unlikely in the extreme that she could have carried off such a deception.

[MalakTawus]

I think you are able to avoid a complete rampage only if you have a stronger impulse or motive that stops you:
-for Ophelia that impulse was the huge hate for AB that stopped her from going to eat humans
-for Rosemary it was the desire to kill Teresa that made her hide her awakening (if not, the org wouldn't have sent Teresa to her)
-for Jean it was her strong humanity


....but anyway,with the only exception for Jean, it's quite safe to assume that the rampage wasn't really avoided but only postponed.

[Joe_fh]

Malak has a point. Ophelia was really out of it since she even let Clare kill her without even fighting back so she, while indeed crazy, had a very strong hate towards ABs and at that time that meant herself as well (that reminds me of another character from another series..)

Jean was indeed very special. She was the first one we've seen who managed to actually turn back from that point and that is really something. Basically we can't count Jean in this due to her strong desire to remain human and resisting evrything.

And again we have Rosemary. As I said above she was only there to show how powerful Teresa actaully was. a couple of chapters ago more people might have argued that she wasn't AO level but after we saw Prissy take out Alicia and Beth in seconds without even being serious...well Rosemary being an AO isn't that strange anymore.
There are a couple of inconsistencies about Rosemary but again the point of that extra chapter was only to show Teresa's power and that was the only way to do it. She was an ex-number one so I would iamgine she could travel around districts thus chose her position carefully to awaken without being noticed. She also sent the black card prior to awekaning and hey we don't even know if she didn't wipe out a town or two. Remember the AB that had destryoed the town when Ophelia showed up (it wasn't even that powerfull yet it killed a lot of people) ? The MiB can't be everywhere and if everyone dies they have no information who did it, and it's not like there aren't ABs out there able to do that.
Overall Rosemary isn't a good example due to the nature of her character,for what was created and the fact that we know nothing about her actual awakening.

As I metioned we only have info about those 3 and Katea (who died so fast we can't even count her as Aimless said) oh and Jean too but her character was again really special so we can't count her as well.
So we're left with the fact that both Luciela and Prissy went on a huge rampage to eat guts,Ophelia who somehow managed not to go even though she wanted to eat (because of her character) and Jean who resisted everything completely but she herself said she was soon going to lose her humanity and become a AB that kills people. Basically one could say that the greater their power the greater their hunger is. We also have information (can't remember which chapter though) that the 3 AOs ramapged across the land until they settled down. So the size of the rampage probably depends on the power of the AB.

And if a ranodm (though qute strong -the one that fought with Ophelia ) AB can destroy a town you can imagine the damage an AO can do. Oh and Prissy's ramapge ended before it was complete since Isley tried to stop her wich ended with her reverted back to her human form and stop eating. It ended with only a few destroyed town which I would imagine is something similiar to what Isley Riful and Luciala did.
In shor every awakening of someone powerful led to a huge ramapge and the only examples of that not happening are ones with characters vital to the development of Clare's character and the story as a whole thus they aren't really the best examples one could find.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Agreed... both the art and many of the ideas have improved a lot since the early days. Yagi's always been good with the characters stories but the over arcing plot has really improved.

Well, this is one reason I said that his ideas had improved, I'm sure no one was expecting this, almost to all of us by surprise.

Spoiler for Nude and also extreme, mind blowing stuff.:

[IMG][/IMG]

[Luminion Lancer]

-With regards to the awakenings, besides the urge to eat the guts of humans (that seems to be their craving anyway), awakening really doesn't provide many drawbacks. Think about it: the person's yoki seemingly increases, many variations exist for varying tactics, the Claymore can still sense yoki as well as reverting to their original hair colour (allowing them to blend into towns easier). If it weren't for the whole "guts craving" and overall lack of control, they'd be perfect protectors of the people from yoma. Makes me question why the Organization cannot simply create artificial meat for their Awakened Claymores. They got enough knowledge to create swords that neither dull nor break, as well as armour that withstands an awakening. Though they are seemingly making progress with the Abyss Feeders.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-With regards to the awakenings, besides the urge to eat the guts of humans (that seems to be their craving anyway), awakening really doesn't provide many drawbacks. Think about it: the person's yoki seemingly increases, many variations exist for varying tactics, the Claymore can still sense yoki as well as reverting to their original hair colour (allowing them to blend into towns easier). If it weren't for the whole "guts craving" and overall lack of control, they'd be perfect protectors of the people from yoma. Makes me question why the Organization cannot simply create artificial meat for their Awakened Claymores. They got enough knowledge to create swords that neither dull nor break, as well as armour that withstands an awakening. Though they are seemingly making progress with the Abyss Feeders.

I agree and disagree... ABs also seem to have an increased ego. When thrown in with a corrupted mind and that craves human flesh many of them just love to torture others to prove there power over others... just like the yoma do. I mean for what other reason would Priscilla's father have forced her to watch him eat her sister than to prove to himself and her that he could do it. He likely wanted to feel more powerful and special. Now lets look at Dauf loving to torture women for the same bloody reason, to make himself feel more powerful.

I wish Yagi examined this more but when ABs group up they don't seem to care about there teammates getting injured. Only Riful and Dauf have really shown affection and caring about each other (I classify Alicia and Beth as 1 AB with two bodies since there minds where always linked, they just didn't understand that they could be individuals)... every other AB only seems to care about themselves. Even Rigardo didn't seem to care about the members of the army, just there over all fighting power. Now lets look at the 3 ABs that beat up Nina's team... they didn't care about the teammate who's arms had been blown off, in fact they seemed to mock him about it. I don't think a Claymore would ever go that far against a warrior that wounded (except Ophelia but she'd want them to loss control of there yoki so she could kill them as an AB, and this very goal of hers kinda makes her the exception to the rule in my mind)... even against the weakest member, sure they might not care if the other warrior died in battle but I don't see any of the laughing at a mocking a warrior in that position after the fight for the hell of it. Recall that Helen was constantly arguing for Clare not to participate in the first AB hunt since she was too weak and yet back then she didn't like Clare at all... but she still hated the idea of Clare dying.

I personally see Riful's and Dauf's relationship as mutually beneficial since both craved some form of understanding but neither could find it from anyone else, after all Riful was to young to get a man (in that way) from anyone else but Dauf and Dauf was just too moronic and ugly to get anyone else but a desperate girl like Riful. At the end of Witch's Maw/Purgatory of Deepest Depths Riful forgot about Dauf even though he was borderline dead yet in the latest arcs she risked her own life to escape with him and stupidly attacked Priscilla in a fit of rage after she hurt him... so I see there relationship as Yagi just making them far more likable before he killed them (that seems to be Yagi's thing... build them up and kill them at their peek). For this reason I don't see there relationship as proof of them not being too affected by there awakening like many others seem to concluded. At best it proved that Riful learned just how much Dauf meant to her after getting so wounded by Jean. Is this proof of a surviving human trait or an indication that a monster came to realize that they wanted to be with someone? Can we really know either way?

Even that male yoki manipulator stated that he loved being a monster... almost implying his awakening freed his inhibitions or worse. Or was this just a power obsessed man to begin with whom loved the freedom and power he gained upon awakening?

When I look at Hilda and Ophelia I see a clear indication of suicide via another, as does almost everyone else. However Sometimes I do find myself asking is suicide proof of humanity? I mean there has been cases of whales have rebeaching themselves after being saved even after days of starving (you'd think if they where that hungry animal instinct o feed would take over... this clearly implies some thought process behind the rebeaching). I've heard of dogs jumping from third story windows (which wasn't left open) after the death of another dog in the house (strange timing... No? Yes this happened to someones dog that I knew). After thinking about this I went out on the net and did some research and found TONS of other documented cases of animal suicide... http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-An...de-63441.shtml

So I have to ask myself how many of the things we say is proof of their humanity or proof of there inhumanity... well isn't? Animals love each other, animals prove there domination over others all the time, and animals have emotions too. So just what is the criteria of saying to what degree they're still human?

The real issue with making the ABs want to defend humans isn't just food though... since most seem to enjoy eating there pray. So it might not just be about feeding them but taking the hunt out of the monster without reducing their potential as a weapon form the orgs point of view. Also the org ultimate goal seems to be the end of all monsters... they're craving The Destroyer flesh since she wants to die after whipping out life too, not just her desire to kill.

Sorry for getting all philosophical on you guys but lets face it when talking about ABs still being human we might as well debate the lines between man and animals... and if we're really feeling brave the lines between man and machine (or in Claymore's case mindless drones)

All we really know of ABs is that they "can" or do (depending on your perspective) act like just humans... but so can many animals too. We know both humans and ABs are animals... the problem comes with defining and/or separating both in terms of the mind (since we know both have different bodies). If you want to reword the question... by how much or in what way does a human mind change after becoming a hybrid and then awakening. We should also ask ourselves in what ways are yoma and ABs different and how they aren't different.

Personally I see ABs losing some of there desire for social groups upon awakening... only 1 male/female relationship, 1 soul-linked sister relationship (Alicia/Beth... Raphaela/Luciela doesn't count since Luciela left Raphaela and on top of that once they meet up again Luciela still acted like Raphaela was just a means to an end), and 1 father and two kids relationship (and this one with a special scent influencing the two ABs involved) really formed any groups based on wanting to be with each other. All the rest was just for completing an objective, odd morals (Rigardo), or staying alive. Yoma seemed to be the same except that they needed the strength of other Yoma way more often than ABs. I also see this helping in there willingness to feed on humans... if not we'd have the whole "I don't wanna eat them" cliché happening all the time.

This post is getting way too long... so I'll stop. (BTW I seem to be catching a cold... so if I didn't make much sense and rambled on for a bit more than needed maybe that's why )

[Luminion Lancer]

-Ryus I'd quote your post but I think that would create a giant wall-o-text so I'll refrain from doing so . But to sum-up, I do agree. The universal thing amongst all ABs seems to be a general lack of fear, self-control or any sense of morals (or even humility). Heck, Agatha offered Cid some sexual favours while in the middle of a battle. But I guess any death machine with free will would inevitably notice a flaw with taking orders from shifty men in black that do bugger all for them. Gotta give the Organization some credit though, they are not idiots. They knew Alicia and Beth would turn on them the moment they awakened and they still had a sense of self. But no matter how I look at it, I still cannot shake the fact that the Organization could invent a means to clone humans and use them to keep ABs under control. Make sure that your wolf is well fed and cared for and you can have it live around your sheep. Of course, that's assuming ABs wouldn't just turn on them if for no other reason that "they felt like it".

[MalakTawus]

Of ourse, that's assuming ABs wouldn't just turn on them if for no other reason that "they felt like it".

......and you'll agree that this eventuality isn't very unlikely.......

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

......and you'll agree that this eventuality isn't very unlikely.......

It shows that we actually understand very little about the nature of the ABs.

[Throne Invader]

I can just look into this thread and face the fact that I will never ever be able to make posts as intelligent and as long as you guys xD Ryus is certainly amazing :P

[Shiek927]

I've said this before, but I always saw Awakened Beings as, psychologically, human beings that have more power then they know what to do with it, which explains their general lack of morals, and so on and so forth.

Some posts I made on the matter for those who are interested; beware, I have a unique mindset.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=600
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=114
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=598
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=601

[MalakTawus]

I've said this before, but I always saw Awakened Beings as, psychologically, human beings that have more power then they know what to do with it, which explains their general lack of morals, and so on and so forth.

Even if i think i understand what you mean i have to say that i don't agree with your view.From your post it seems like power is the cause for their lack of moral,but this seems a bit strange to me 'cause the warriors don't need to awaken to be incredibly powerful,i mean,there are a lot of "normal" warriors that are EXTREMELY strong and still have a strong moral, and on the contrary there are weak AB with no moral at all.
Imo the AB lack of moral is smply their nature....and some of them seems to have a moral code that they follow,even if it's very different from "human moral".
If instead you meant that ABs seem to BEHAVE like EVIL human beings that have more power then they know what to do with it than i guess i agree.
I read your theory about the change of personality and the fact that ABs keep their original personality.It's a really interesting theory,instead i have always thought that when warriors awakens their original personality is "corrupted" and changed by their yoma influence so imo there is a real change in personality.
The old bonds aren't really carried over in the "new persona",but since ABs keep their memories, it's reason that keeps them alive (infact these old bonds seems to be quite weak,as if there is no real feeling in there).
The only exception to this case seems to be when the original human personality is too strong to be completely changed during the awakening.

[Shiek927]

If instead you meant that ABs seem to BEHAVE like EVIL human beings that have more power then they know what to do with it than i guess i agree.

Yes, that's what I meant; their is a distinction between Psychology and Personality that must be addressed. Awakened Beings do not "become evil just because they do".

[Ryuken]

A strange comment that @Shieky, but I like it. The distinction between Psychology and Personality is very common in all aspects of like. It can be defined as a dynamic and organized set of characteristics possessed by a person that uniquely influences his or her cognitions, motivations, and behaviors in various situations.

[Korinov]

Mmm, let's give it a try.

I don't think ABs just lack morals. Its just that they morals change drastically after awakening. When still claymores, they retain their humanity (at least half ), but the awakening changes completely their point of view. We're used to feel pity for animals even if we feed on them, but that's maybe because nowadays we don't have to hunt them down personally, kill them ourselves and then proceed to eat.

Besides, the difference in power and age is so huge between ABs and humans that, for the average AB, feeding on and crushing a human town could be the same as a human feeding on and crushing an ant nest.

[MalakTawus]

their is a distinction between Psychology and Personality that must be addressed.

I see,but it's not so clear if you use the term "Psychology" since it's a concept quite vast and not as confined as "Personality" (that btw it's a mental process included into the psychology).....

[revan5]

Originally Posted by Korinov

Mmm, let's give it a try.

I don't think ABs just lack morals. Its just that they morals change drastically after awakening. When still claymores, they retain their humanity (at least half ), but the awakening changes completely their point of view. We're used to feel pity for animals even if we feed on them, but that's maybe because nowadays we don't have to hunt them down personally, kill them ourselves and then proceed to eat.

Besides, the difference in power and age is so huge between ABs and humans that, for the average AB, feeding on and crushing a human town could be the same as a human feeding on and crushing an ant nest.

Interestingly though, we've yet to see an Awakened Being quite as evil as Stalin or Hitler. There are very few paranoid Awakened Beings, perhaps because they're so powerful there is no reason to be paranoid. You'll notice, that despite not caring about losing "useless" Awakened Beings, Isley never actually had that grand of ambitions. He could have enslaved the humans of the north and built a more permanent power base, but to him they were just food. It makes you wonder if Ophelia was truly more evil as a claymore than she ever was Awakened.

While Awakened Beings seem to lose part of themselves, I remain disappointed in their lack of true ambition. What would truly make Claymore interesting is if we were to come upon an upstart claymore who, after the Organization was gone, ruthlessly rose to power. To be honest, Awakened Beings seem to lack the ambition to be truly frightening. It just seems to me if you were ever going to peg an ultimate bad guy to the series, they'd either be another claymore or perhaps a Dragonkin. Priscilla, monstrous though she is, does not command the loyalty of others. Claymores and Dragonkin on the other hand...they seem more than capable of doing that.

I guess to me Awakened Beings may be an evil, but they're an evil utterly lacking in real ambition (see the utter waste of Prissy's abilities these last seven years). Isley seemed to want to rule the island, but how would he have ruled? It seemed to me all he was going to do was annihilate his rivals and then say, "that's it baby, I've made it! Now I'll just eat humans at leisure and relax." Perhaps Dragonkin, unlike Awakened Beings, have this killer instinct when it comes to power. They certainly have better instincts, seeing as how they preferring fighting under a unified tribe in groups.