(L) KimiKiss pure rouge

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by golthin

I mostly skip them as you just seem to repeat the same over and over!

I was going to say basically the same thing. If the doubters haven't been convinced so far, I don't think one more round will be the breakthrough they need. You could sum it all up by "Wowowow! Wasn't Mao x Koichi great, though?! Seriously, it was great! I was so worried, but it so paid off. That was just really great!" I can't even summarize it without repeating myself!

In other news, I'm a bit surprised by how many game players there seem to be in this thread all of a sudden. Didn't know so many people around here had played the game (I thought it was more obscure than that); I assume it was due to interest in the anime?

[Blaat]

Good to know I'm the only one who skips through Lego's posts.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In other news, I'm a bit surprised by how many game players there seem to be in this thread all of a sudden. Didn't know so many people around here had played the game (I thought it was more obscure than that); I assume it was due to interest in the anime?

They were here in the beginning complaining about the anime and telling us the game is better. They were here in the middle when they told us the same thing and they are now here at the ending, still telling us the same thing.

[Lego]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I was going to say basically the same thing. If the doubters haven't been convinced so far, I don't think one more round will be the breakthrough they need. You could sum it all up by "Wowowow! Wasn't Mao x Koichi great, though?! Seriously, it was great! I was so worried, but it so paid off. That was just really great!" I can't even summarize it without repeating myself!

In other news, I'm a bit surprised by how many game players there seem to be in this thread all of a sudden. Didn't know so many people around here had played the game (I thought it was more obscure than that); I assume it was due to interest in the anime?

Thats half of my intended purpose on posting like that . Aside from me getting out my Kouichi and Mao love I get to drive home a point.


The only real thing I have left with this series is the soundtrack coming out and the fact that we still have this "mystery 25th episode" or whatever it's. I'm telling myself mentally "please don't fuck it up, please don't fuck it up, please don't fuck it up". We'll know Sunday when that last "Haluna check" comes in with DVD details. I really, really, really hope it's something trivial like the movie they worked on or some sort of Mitsuki, Akira, and class rep girl episode. Leave Kouichi and Mao's story as is...

Although the fact that they're going to do a special update for the DVD's has me thinking that they'll either add on to the last episode or add an epilouge. Again "please don't fuck it, please don't fuck it up, please don't fuck it up"

Originally Posted by Blaat

Good to know I'm the only one who skips through Lego's posts.
They were here in the beginning complaining about the anime and telling us the game is better. They were here in the middle when they told us the same thing and they are now here at the ending, still telling us the same thing.

Who are you again? You're the guy that brings us coffee right? I'll take a latte

[FuzzyWuzzy]

I wanted a more dramatic ending. I wanted Kouichi to say lamer lines than that. Lines that can make people's heart go doki doki or make him look really cool.

Also the gamers are idiots. Geeze, if you prefer the game so much then why watch the anime? WTH, it is practically the same story with the most practical ending. I can't believe how can gamers hate the anime at the beginning but still watch it till the end. You already know the story, the plot and everything that is going to happen and you already know that you hate it at episode 1-3 and yet you guys still watched the whole show. Are you guys morons?

[nikorai]

I feel like playing the game again now that I'm a bit better at japanese. Now that I think of it I can name a few things which are missing in the anime.

Spoiler for game details:

Nana playing golf (she's good at it)
Nana playing majong (she's terrible at it)
Nana wearing a chinese dress (cute!)
Megumi having a thing for cats

The characters stories were abridged and/or considerably altered to fit the anime storyline.
Say, in the game Futami had flashbacks of her parents and told more about her lifestyle. You can also see her playing or rather attempting to play volleyball. Closer to the last scene Futami feels really carefree and easygoing. When they take photos note the joke about 'I count till 2' (I speaking of yon kakeru nibun no ichi).

[DanielSong39]

My guess is that the gamers actually enjoyed the show but decided to vent because it was nothing like the game.

And let's face it, considering the number of changes made to the show, the gamers did not know the story, the plot, or anything that was going to happen.

Maybe if this show was called "Pure Rouge" and names and appearances were changed to avoid copyright infringement, you might see fewer complaints. But because of the word "KimiKiss", gamers were expect a similar form of entertainment from a different media. Alas, that was not to be.

I've decided to leave this topic alone; let's enjoy the anime for what it is, and the same with the game and manga.

[Lego]

It happens all the time with manga to anime and game to anime adaptations. I can't count the number of times I've heard bitching about a series not sticking to the manga or light novel. The thing is with the Kimikiss anime and especially the game you have such amazing characters with great voice work(Mitsuki swooooooooon!) and personalities that people become attached.

Look how attached I ended up getting to Mao and then her and Kouichi. I'm fine with the anime and the game, for me I love both. I mean it isn't like they set the show in space with mechs and Kouichi is secretly Char. To cover all the female leads without even more bitching they had to make Kaz and Kai. But in the end the main character of the manga, game, and the anime Kouichi ends up with Mao because thats where they led us the whole series while developing thier feelings for each other.

Now we just sit back and wait to see if they try to pull any BS with this DVD only thing since the last "Haluna Check" is coming on Monday(meaning it'll be up Sunday for US residents) and we'll see what they have planned.

So I see no reason why one can't enjoy both, I can't stand the slew of people complaining about the ending because their favorite girl lost both English and Japanese. I was checking out the Japanese Biglobe(globe?) message board about the series and it was all bitch, bitch, bitch with some people saying "hey, they were in love, shut up" and etc.

Why do I care? Look what happened with stuff like Gurren where Japanese fans complained. It would be a total cop out to somehow alter the ending or include something on the last DVD to appease those people. They should have the guts to stick with what they made the whole series and let people enjoy it for that. They had a very deliberate hand in crafting the series and hopefully they stick with that.

On another note I'm interested to see if JC Staff will have any Kimikiss items at this weekends TAF.

[SailorMoon4ever]

LOVED this series till then end im rather sad to see it finally end though .

[Darknemo2000]

Lego though you are right about Kazuki as another hero to cover up the girls as best as possible (less unhappy endings) you are wrong about Kai as he didn't end up with anyone, and his role was basically stealing the first kiss from Mao abut still not having a real relationship with her. If he would have ended up with Mao then you could have say that Kai was really brought there as another male lead, but he didn't and his presence was to annoy most of MaoxKouichi shippers, which isnt a very good idea considering how "popular" the anime is in Japan already.

While, you liked both anime and game, you cannot disagree that Kimikiss anime was a failure in Japan and that from a financial point of view JC Staff screwed themselves up. This combined with the fact that ZnT II, though financially not doing that bad, was rather badly received in Japan as well made JC Staff gain quite a number of anti-fans.

FuzzyWuzzy, who said that we watched the whole show? I personally watched it to 4th episode and up the middle of 5th then dropped it down, though it was mostly due to my hatred to love triangles-squeres and herems, though the fact that the characters were altered didn't help much nor that the plot changed as well.

You are saying that the plot is basically the same, then I can say that you never played the game if you are saying that because plot is very different just like characters too. Again the only thing that game and anime is similar are only character looks and names mostly.

Thats why the gamers hated it. They got attached to the characters, seeing them trashed down just to fit anime storyline which is also very different from the game haven't made them to like the anime more. my guess if the anime would not been called Kimikiss and character names would have been altered it would have been sucessful enough in Japan. It wouldn't be something outstanding, but it would be doing fairly in the market, and not having the pathetically low sales as it does now.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

While, you liked both anime and game, you cannot disagree that Kimikiss anime was a failure in Japan and that from a financial point of view JC Staff screwed themselves up. This combined with the fact that ZnT II, though financially not doing that bad, was rather badly received in Japan as well made JC Staff gain quite a number of anti-fans.

Didn't we already have this conversation in this thread? The Kimikiss Production Committee isn't run by JC Staff, it's a conglomeration of different companies involved in the franchise. People who blame JC Staff for this are just being selective. Enterbrain, the game's publisher, was on the production committee, and this hardly the first anime adaptation they've helped oversee. They made a decision as a committee, and it didn't result in the DVD sales they probably hoped for. This isn't JC Staff's fault. People blame the animation production companies for far too many things; maybe it's just because they're the easiest ones to point fingers at. And you've linked two otherwise unrelated production together as if it's somehow indicative of some sort of trend, but that's pretty baseless. The Zero no Tsukaima production committee chose to make that anime the way they did as well; for all we know, JC Staff could have objected and been told to "shut up and colour" (or, in this case, animate). The point is, fans shouldn't place all the blame on their shoulders; this is business, which means that every decision is political.

Originally Posted by Blaat

They were here in the beginning complaining about the anime and telling us the game is better. They were here in the middle when they told us the same thing and they are now here at the ending, still telling us the same thing.

Well, I was sort of being facetious/sarcastic a bit... my point was, people who clearly have never played the game in their lives were starting to compare the anime to it and say how the game was better in this way or that. I was wondering, facetiously, when they had a chance to play the game and why all of a sudden? Granted that there have always been complaints from game fans.

[Lego]

Oh the show is performing below their expectations sure, we all agree on that. I like the game because I can pick whoever I want, when I want, and get a good ending. I had to shoulder through the anime to finally get Kouichi and Mao, and boy was it a satisfactory relationship. In a way if they just kind of "got together" it would seem phony but they came off as a real characters and thats what this director is good at, same with Nodame and Honey & Clover.

I know I keep saying it, relentless will want to hit me with some blunt object but the only real thing left for me in regards to Kimikiss is seeing what this mysterious "episode 25" or "DVD extra" will be. This all is based off of an early solicitation for 25 episodes, so who knows. We'll know on Sunday or 3/31 what it's, hopefully Haluna just announces the DVD dates but it has me worried since he says an "expanded Haluna check".

次回更新は3月31日。「Haluna Check!」最終回特別拡大版をメインに、今後のDVD情報をお届けします。
それでは、感動の最終回をお見逃しなきよう、よろしくお願いします！

The next update is March 31. "Haluna Check!" Special times in the final version of this expansion, the future of DVD delivers the information.
Well, you missed the last episode impressed innocent, Thanks!

Obviously the expansion edition is talking about that it'll most likely take up the whole page since his stuff was always a little paragraph. I have no idea what the second part is saying. So I'm hoping that they don't include something that'll screw up the show just so they can sell some more DVD's. I don't think I have to worry about a sequel either, especially with those DVD numbers and the fact that theres really nothing to go over. An OVA? I guess it could happen but I like the series as is...

I hope that on Monday I can make a post commending JC Staff for not bowing to pressure and keeping the ending and series as is.

[Darknemo2000]

Actually it is JC Staff fault the route the selected for. It wasn't Enterbrain that decided what team should work on Kimikiss it was JC Staff, and seems like they chose the wrong way.

For a game that sells over 60 K you would expect to get if at least over-mediocre sales. Enterbrain wasn't the one to tell what JC Staff should do in a sense of what direction anime should take. There without a doubt was a pressure behind the scenes (most of anime production staff have it) but it wasn't directed to the way of how the anime should look and what direction should it take, but most likely it was directed to the way how anime should perform and what expected gains it should get.

JC Staff kept silent about the project but were rather full of confidence (from those little interview we have) that the Kimikiss anime will be hit and their silence before release was used as another mean to advetise the project , as Kimikiss is extremely popular already they didnt really need to tell what it is, but rather keep silent to create a huge hype and speculations before it was released.

It didn't go well, but JC Staff is fully responsible for the outcome. Well, now they are paying it and i have no doubt if they would have given now a chance to create a Kimikiss or not, they would have chosen not or tried with an entirely different team.

Granted JC Staff are not the only ones to blame, but you make them sound like an innocent little bunnies that sit in the corner and have nothin g to say about it, which isn't true at all.


Anime studios are like basketball couches. In basketball - coach is always responsible, that is part of their job - the responsibility. A good coach even with bad management can do miracles. But they happen rarely. Anime studio's are the same way.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Actually it is JC Staff fault the route the selected for. It wasn't Enterbrain that decided what team should work on Kimikiss it was JC Staff, and seems like they chose the wrong way. [...] Enterbrain wasn't the one to tell what JC Staff should do in a sense of what direction anime should take. [...] It didn't go well, but JC Staff is fully responsible for the outcome.

Rest assured that a company like Enterbrain absolutely has veto power over the major decisions involving the production. They would have explicitly approved the director, production team, set the tone for their expectations out of the production, and so on. The people who pay the bills have the say. But, I'm not going to argue with you about it... you've already decided who to blame, so whatever... We've also already had this discussion before, so there's no need to repeat it.

[Darknemo2000]

Again, they do not decide which direction series do take. They however do decide the team, however the team is announced by the anime company first and then the Committee decides weather they agree or not. As a rule Committee's do not bother much with the production teams and there aren't that much rejected candidates, rather they seek only one - profit.

Usually rejection comes if the production team member has a sad history behind. But usually it is anime companies that push them, while Committee rarely try to deny that.

Committee never decides the directory of anime itself however it decides the a mangement of it. Again, its like management in basketball teams, just in this case coaches (anime studios) have more to say in management of the team.

Again, as I said taking the blame is part of coaches (anime studios) jobs - dont like it do not work there. The world is unfair but tahts how it is - we always need a scapegoats yet this is part of anime studios jobs.

A good coach is able to perform well even with crappy a management, thats the similar way with anime studios as well, it is just that anime studios have much more active part in management than lets say coaches usually do.

You are overempathizing some points and as a result it looks like the anime studio is not the one to blame. It is not THE ONLY ONE to blame but it is the one to take the responsibility if anything goes wrong.

And they are responsible as they take active part and especially in directing the anime itself... Kimikiss was a very bad project, probably not even the greatest pessimists would have expected it to be THAT low, while most were very overoptimistic with an impressive popularity of the game. I probably would have been as well. At least I would have expected it to reach the mediocre sales even if it doesnt go all that well...

[relentlessflame]

I'm not sure why you felt that repeating your point would make it stronger. I heard you the first time. You're just not correct to blame the scapegoat, in my opinion. The fault truly lies with management. It nearly always does. Besides that, neither you nor I know the exact role that any of these companies played in this particular situation; we can only speculate based on our individual research on the market and way anime production works these days.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Kimikiss was a very bad project, probably not even the greatest pessimists would have expected it to be THAT low, while most were very overoptimistic with an impressive popularity of the game.

Ultimately, the reason why I said I wasn't going to debate it with you is because I don't care. I did my part and bought the DVDs because I like the show. Game fans be damned. It was not a bad project to me. It wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with the majority, and it certainly won't be the last.

[Lego]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'm not sure why you felt that repeating your point would make it stronger. I heard you the first time. You're just not correct to blame the scapegoat, in my opinion. The fault truly lies with management. It nearly always does. Besides that, neither you nor I know the exact role that any of these companies played in this particular situation; we can only speculate based on our individual research on the market and way anime production works these days.

Ultimately, the reason why I said I wasn't going to debate it with you is because I don't care. I did my part and bought the DVDs because I like the show. Game fans be damned. It was not a bad project to me. It wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with the majority, and it certainly won't be the last.

A lot of Japanese "fans" are seemingly irked about the ending, but you can't tell how many people there really are when you check out things like 2ch. I think for once me and relentless are on the same page in that the game is the game, the anime is the anime. Most of these "production comities" are companies, individuals, and financial backers for a new show. Anime isn't cheap to make you know, even ones that don't sell that well. In a way it justifies the R1 industry point in that "if only 1.5k bought Kimikiss why should we license it?".

I think part of it could be that Enterbrain wants their foot in everything. They have several mangas going on, light novels, an anime, various mechandise, and now a solid anime that tanked in Japan. Much like Bandai did to Hime they're trying to create a media franchise. I have no problem in that since what you're really selling isn't the story itself, but the characters. It isn't like they made Mao male(oh boy that would of been funny) and Kouichi female(again, funny), they brought in a skilled director and played it straight. The thing I notice looking back on the series is the maturity that it had.

-No cheapy fanservice
-solid story telling
-believable and real characters that actually get hurt emotionally, who are vulnerable
-based in the real world, no cheapy BS, just real people
-Characters definitively deal with each other, no loose ends

and so on.

[Darknemo2000]

And why do you feel like repeating yourself make your arguments stronger?

Same way as I, I guess. I believe that active participation in the project by directing it is more important rather than poor management, while i believe that you talks only about poor management is an utter rubbish, while you believe the otherwise. There is no point on argueing it further as our view points do differ completely.

But saying that Kimikiss is a good project financially is silly. Go take a look at sales rates if you do not believe me. That is what makes Kimikiss one of the worst projects this season. It might be a good show for you personally but you cannot argue about it being a failure in terms of finances and thats what my comment was about.

Lol and lego i seriously do not believe that this anime had better characters that game did. They looked much more likable in game and better flashed out. Also the game though had some fanservice wasn't overfilled with it as well, so you cannot really point that out as the only anime function.

And you saying that it is close to real life..sorry but it is the same as saying that soup opera is very close to a real life. Not very realistic.

[ZODDGUTS]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

For a game that sells over 60 K you would expect to get if at least over-mediocre sales. Enterbrain wasn't the one to tell what JC Staff should do in a sense of what direction anime should take.

I'm pretty sure the original PS2 KimiKiss game sold easily over 100k hell the recent re-release of the game in february sold 40k in it's first month .

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242348

It was in # 5 in game sales. Goes to show how popular kimikiss is that even after two years after it's original release it still sales... the anime not so much.

[Lego]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

And why do you feel like repeating yourself make your arguments stronger?

Same way as I, I guess. I believe that active participation in the project by directing it is more important rather than poor management, while i believe that you talks only about poor management is an utter rubbish, while you believe the otherwise. There is no point on argueing it further as our view points do differ completely.

But saying that Kimikiss is a good project financially is silly. Go take a look at sales rates if you do not believe me. That is what makes Kimikiss one of the worst projects this season. It might be a good show for you personally but you cannot argue about it being a failure in terms of finances and thats what my comment was about.

Ever hear the old saying "If you say something enough times it'll end up being true"?, or something like that..

I know at least for me it was repeating things to calm my mind, the whole drama educed posting rampage when the series aired. Now you look back, go "oh, that wasn't that bad" and the writers made surgical like cuts with scenes and dialog to make things work that way. Without having an intricate knowledge of the Japanese staff I couldn't tell you who was at fault. Maybe they were told "hey, heres the game, the characters, go for it". They obviously had to have a planning meeting and they kept the site up each week with new updates and things to look for in the next episodes. Hence why I said that this was very deliberate from the start. Going back through the series you pick up on a very deliberate thread tying Kouichi and Mao together even when they were with other people, lots of people knew since the early episodes.

My only hope is that they don't somehow go to some other studio and pitch a new Kimikiss anime since the game is incredibly popular as my all caps friend ZOD mentioned. You can't have a "do over", I'd be astonished if Enterbrain and whoever was overseeing the project didn't know what they were going to do with the show especially getting a veteran director. Then again they could of pulled favorites, look who Honey & Clover and Nodame are animated by. Still Clover and I believe Nodame aired in that famous time slot(the name escapes me) where anything turns to gold.

[Darknemo2000]

That are my hopes. That they would go to other studio and make another Kimikiss.

But with a shabby performance of this anime it might be somewhat confusing situation, On one hand, one would like to take a full use of the games popularity and it would be hard to do it worser than JC Staff did, on the other hand, because it looks so bad on the market, others might not be willing to take the risk and got theior fingers burned the same way.

Again, it should be noted that I would only be willing for another kimikiss only if it would be similar to the game - taht is boy meets girl story. If they are going to make it a harem show (it would still be more popular than this anime anyway) then no thanks. Even the love triangles drama is better than harem fanservice (though not by much, in my opinion).