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Sumeragi · 2012-09-07, 02:00

We have to recognize that the Ming and Qing were essentially "gunpowder empires", in the sense that the state monopolized the tools of war.

Ridwan · 2012-09-07, 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

We have to recognize that the Ming and Qing were essentially "gunpowder empires", in the sense that the state monopolized the tools of war.

And the Ottomans. And the Mughals.

NoemiChan · 2012-09-07, 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

What would happen if Germanicus was allowed by the Emperor of Rome to invade Germania?

It seems Germanicus Julius Caesar ain't that famous... I'll link something about him so the after please answer me...

HERE

Eragon · 2012-09-07, 03:17

The death of Ogedai Khan(third son of Genghis Khan), after the Mongols had defeated Hungary, must have been the biggest stroke of luck for feudal Europe. They were at Mongolian mercy after the Mongols almost halved the Hungarian population. The melee combat tactics of Europe weren't going to stand a chance as was amply illustrated in the decimation of the Hungary.

If not for Ogedai's death Europe(except, perhaps, Britain) would have no doubt fallen to the Mongols.

I wonder what would have happened if the Mongols had conquered Europe...

NoemiChan · 2012-09-07, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

I wonder what would have happened if the Mongols had conquered Europe...

Mongolian barbecue would have struck the taste buds of Europeans!!!!

Seriously, probably the same as what the Mongols did with Russian..

The Hundred Years War will never happen since France would be under Mongol control and England's land claims will be pointless.

The Reconquista will be halted in Spain... The Spanish has to fight the Moors and the Mongols...

England? Well, pay tribute...

In the cultural sense, clothing and food (lols)

Sumeragi · 2012-09-07, 03:53

The Mongols wers never going to make it pass Germany. The geography gives advantage to infantry.

NoemiChan · 2012-09-07, 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The Mongols wers never going to make it pass Germany. The geography gives advantage to infantry.

But the Mongols had advanced across Bohemia, Serbia, Austria and into the Holy Roman Empire. It was halted due to Ogetai's death.

DonQuigleone · 2012-09-07, 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The Mongols wers never going to make it pass Germany. The geography gives advantage to infantry.

I'm inclined to agree.

Also, the combined forces of Christendom would probably have been able to push them back. Even the Holy Roman Empire alone might have been enough. Certainly with the authority of the Pope behind them they would have been able to marshal forces on a similar scale as they did during the Crusades, and in this case it would have been a much more overt threat then the Muslims.

erneiz_hyde · 2012-09-07, 06:01

I also think the mongols didn't have a good chance in conquering ALL of Europe, much less maintain what they had. Maybe it would be possible if they had a less centralized military hierarchy (so an entire army doesn't have to go back to pay respects to their dead Khan or something), and somehow established a more permanent foothold in the eastern plains of Europe...

As if Black Death wasn't enough lol

DonQuigleone · 2012-09-07, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I also think the mongols didn't have a good chance in conquering ALL of Europe, much less maintain what they had. Maybe it would be possible if they had a less centralized military hierarchy (so an entire army doesn't have to go back to pay respects to their dead Khan or something), and somehow established a more permanent foothold in the eastern plains of Europe...

As if Black Death wasn't enough lol

Hell, when the Mongol Empire did disintegrate, and the Golden Horde became independent, they didn't go on a conquest spree in Europe, largely because Poland and Hungary were powerful enough to stop them.

Ridwan · 2012-09-07, 10:37

They never had a chance to conquer all of europe. Pass Hungary, Europe is simply a more favorable a terrain for infantry just like Sumeragi said. It was also fairly fortified and politically fragmented because europe was full blown feudal. Bavaria would be the most extreme point the Mongols could've reached, perhaps....

Christendom unity was something as superficial as it could get. Crusade wasn't an evidence of european unbreakable solidarity as often boasted. Far from that, it was a phenomenal success of the Papacy at pressuring european aristocracy through their gripping network of religious service while baiting them with the riches of the orient. And as history proved, the church had a quite difficult time controling the crusader states. That's just how politics work : every leader, hell everyone, will prioritize their own immediate interests, and unity only forms when those interests find a direct common adversary. Even if Mongols would pass beyond Rhine, you will hardly at best get every remaining christian europe to rush for aiding France. Whatever widespread aghast will plague the public opinion, it still needs a uniform response from the actors, something that we can't rely from them. Not in a highly feudal medieval europe.

DonQuigleone · 2012-09-07, 11:27

Most of the time Christian Unity was indeed meaningless. However, if a sufficiently large invasion force was threatening you would get some degree of unity out of fear (any aristocrat worth his salt knew that if the Mongols reached their territory they were dead). So you'd get a large coalition formed. It happened later during the Rennaissance when the Ottomans were threatening Europe. Much of Europe came together on several occasions in grand coalitions to bring them to a halt.

It's simple Realpolitick. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Mongols would have been considered an enemy by all due to their ruthless and implacable nature. It would be much easier to assemble a large coalition of forces together especially compared to the Crusades, where the Saracens weren't really directly threatening anyone besides the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

In the case of the Mongols though at the very least you'd get the Poland, Hungary and the all the states of the Holy Roman Empire coming together. You might also get some of the Scandinavian Kingdoms along for the ride, and anyone else that might want to seize lands in Eastern Europe for themselves.

Ridwan · 2012-09-07, 11:37

Immediate areas bordering Rhineland, yes. England across the channel ? Iberians across the Pyrennees ? Italians across the Alps ? Half-heartedly sent token reinforcements from a few of them perhaps (mostly likely just england and iberian states. probably just the iberians), but they would be aware that they're still safe enough from the mongols. They knew they were protected by geography and just too far, and they'll just do minimal gestures to appease Rome. And I will doubt the Scandinavians most.

And no, that wasn't the case with the Ottomans. It was just the christian powers involved in Mediterranean, and excepting France, which actually buddy-buddied the Turks.

Eragon · 2012-09-07, 12:45

What terrain advantage are you alluding to? Fortifications would be the least of the Mongols problems since they were quite familiar with siege warfare - defeating the Chinese, Khwarazmian etc. must amount to something right?

Xellos-_^ · 2012-09-07, 12:53

looking at the map of the Mongol conquest, i don't see any reason why the Mongol couldn't have taken Western Europe. While the Mongols were at their best on plains it wasn't like they couldn't fight their way through mountains and rough terrain either. When the Mongols invaded Rus they took with them siege engines form China. i don't see Western Europe being any more effective against the Chinese Siege Engines then Easter Europe. As far its fedual nature, i can see a lot of the mid and lower noble class defecting enlarge to the Mongols as a bid to increase their own political powers.

willx · 2012-09-07, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

looking at the map of the Mongol conquest, i don't see any reason why the Mongol couldn't have taken Europe. Why the Mongols were at their best on plains it wasn't like they couldn't fight their way through mountains and rough terrain either. When the Mongols invaded Rus they took with them siege engines form China. i don't see Western Europe being any more effective against the Chinese Siege Engines then Easter Europe. As far its fedual nature, i can see a lot of the mid and lower noble class defecting enlarge to the Mongols as a bid to increase their own political powers.

This is just speculation on my part, but expansion at that point was likely useless.. The Mongols had already formed a massive sprawling land empire with no effective way of governing over all of it.. Which gets me back to my earlier point about logistics.

Whee! I'm so glad I discovered this thread.. So this line of thinking has gotten me thinking about some of the books I purchased a couple of years back. I dragged it out and gave it another read..

There are some historical inaccuracies and certain things have been overly dramatized.. but it's an interesting read for fans of military history:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Lose-Battl.../dp/0060760249

Xellos-_^ · 2012-09-07, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by willx

This is just speculation on my part, but expansion at that point was likely useless.. The Mongols had already formed a massive sprawling land empire with no effective way of governing over all of it.. Which gets me back to my earlier point about logistics.

the Mongols were expanding for the sake of Expanding. There wasn't any other point to it.

Sumeragi · 2012-09-07, 15:54

The relatively wet climate of eastern Europe was already causing problems to the Mongols from the glue and sinew of the Mongolian bows being affected. Going any further would mean even worse conditions from the Mongol military situation. There is also the fact that even then, France was relatively highly centralized. A third major reason was that Europe was a side show compared to Song China and Southwestern Asia.

NoemiChan · 2012-09-07, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The relatively wet climate of eastern Europe was already causing problems to the Mongols from the glue and sinew of the Mongolian bows being affected.

The only acceptable reason to use terrain as a disadvantage for the Mongols.

Remember that Mongols are a horde and cavalry as their chief fighting force... Swamps and thick forest can delay if not halt a Mongol advance, ... Assuming that a terrain is fitted for infantry will likely fit for a cavalry unit to fight as well. Wide open terrain is a big advantage for a cavalry unit.

A + for Sumeragi hehehe

erneiz_hyde · 2012-09-07, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

What terrain advantage are you alluding to? Fortifications would be the least of the Mongols problems since they were quite familiar with siege warfare - defeating the Chinese, Khwarazmian etc. must amount to something right?

Cmiiw, I think it's the mountainous terrain and thicker forests (and probably marshes as well). Infantry can still function considerably in those, but not so much cavalry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The relatively wet climate of eastern Europe was already causing problems to the Mongols from the glue and sinew of the Mongolian bows being affected. Going any further would mean even worse conditions from the Mongol military situation. There is also the fact that even then, France was relatively highly centralized. A third major reason was that Europe was a side show compared to Song China and Southwestern Asia.

This lol

. Europe at that point probably only register as backwater area not worthy to conquer in the eyes of the Mongols.

2012-09-07, 03:17	Link #164
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 30	The death of Ogedai Khan(third son of Genghis Khan), after the Mongols had defeated Hungary, must have been the biggest stroke of luck for feudal Europe. They were at Mongolian mercy after the Mongols almost halved the Hungarian population. The melee combat tactics of Europe weren't going to stand a chance as was amply illustrated in the decimation of the Hungary. If not for Ogedai's death Europe(except, perhaps, Britain) would have no doubt fallen to the Mongols. I wonder what would have happened if the Mongols had conquered Europe... __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai

2012-09-07, 06:01	Link #169
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	I also think the mongols didn't have a good chance in conquering ALL of Europe, much less maintain what they had. Maybe it would be possible if they had a less centralized military hierarchy (so an entire army doesn't have to go back to pay respects to their dead Khan or something), and somehow established a more permanent foothold in the eastern plains of Europe... As if Black Death wasn't enough lol __________________

2012-09-07, 10:37	Link #171
Ridwan Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: قلوب المؤمنين	They never had a chance to conquer all of europe. Pass Hungary, Europe is simply a more favorable a terrain for infantry just like Sumeragi said. It was also fairly fortified and politically fragmented because europe was full blown feudal. Bavaria would be the most extreme point the Mongols could've reached, perhaps.... Christendom unity was something as superficial as it could get. Crusade wasn't an evidence of european unbreakable solidarity as often boasted. Far from that, it was a phenomenal success of the Papacy at pressuring european aristocracy through their gripping network of religious service while baiting them with the riches of the orient. And as history proved, the church had a quite difficult time controling the crusader states. That's just how politics work : every leader, hell everyone, will prioritize their own immediate interests, and unity only forms when those interests find a direct common adversary. Even if Mongols would pass beyond Rhine, you will hardly at best get every remaining christian europe to rush for aiding France. Whatever widespread aghast will plague the public opinion, it still needs a uniform response from the actors, something that we can't rely from them. Not in a highly feudal medieval europe. __________________

2012-09-07, 11:37	Link #173
Ridwan Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: قلوب المؤمنين	Immediate areas bordering Rhineland, yes. England across the channel ? Iberians across the Pyrennees ? Italians across the Alps ? Half-heartedly sent token reinforcements from a few of them perhaps (mostly likely just england and iberian states. probably just the iberians), but they would be aware that they're still safe enough from the mongols. They knew they were protected by geography and just too far, and they'll just do minimal gestures to appease Rome. And I will doubt the Scandinavians most. And no, that wasn't the case with the Ottomans. It was just the christian powers involved in Mediterranean, and excepting France, which actually buddy-buddied the Turks. __________________ Last edited by Ridwan; 2012-09-07 at 11:47.

2012-09-07, 12:45	Link #174
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 30	What terrain advantage are you alluding to? Fortifications would be the least of the Mongols problems since they were quite familiar with siege warfare - defeating the Chinese, Khwarazmian etc. must amount to something right? __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai

2012-09-07, 02:00	Link #161
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	We have to recognize that the Ming and Qing were essentially "gunpowder empires", in the sense that the state monopolized the tools of war.

2012-09-07, 03:53	Link #166
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	The Mongols wers never going to make it pass Germany. The geography gives advantage to infantry.

2012-09-07, 11:27	Link #172
DonQuigleone Knight Errant Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dublin, Ireland Age: 35	Most of the time Christian Unity was indeed meaningless. However, if a sufficiently large invasion force was threatening you would get some degree of unity out of fear (any aristocrat worth his salt knew that if the Mongols reached their territory they were dead). So you'd get a large coalition formed. It happened later during the Rennaissance when the Ottomans were threatening Europe. Much of Europe came together on several occasions in grand coalitions to bring them to a halt. It's simple Realpolitick. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Mongols would have been considered an enemy by all due to their ruthless and implacable nature. It would be much easier to assemble a large coalition of forces together especially compared to the Crusades, where the Saracens weren't really directly threatening anyone besides the Kingdom of Jerusalem. In the case of the Mongols though at the very least you'd get the Poland, Hungary and the all the states of the Holy Roman Empire coming together. You might also get some of the Scandinavian Kingdoms along for the ride, and anyone else that might want to seize lands in Eastern Europe for themselves.

2012-09-07, 12:53	Link #175
Xellos-_^ Not Enough Sleep Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: R'lyeh Age: 48	looking at the map of the Mongol conquest, i don't see any reason why the Mongol couldn't have taken Western Europe. While the Mongols were at their best on plains it wasn't like they couldn't fight their way through mountains and rough terrain either. When the Mongols invaded Rus they took with them siege engines form China. i don't see Western Europe being any more effective against the Chinese Siege Engines then Easter Europe. As far its fedual nature, i can see a lot of the mid and lower noble class defecting enlarge to the Mongols as a bid to increase their own political powers. __________________ Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2012-09-07 at 13:10.

2012-09-07, 15:54	Link #178
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	The relatively wet climate of eastern Europe was already causing problems to the Mongols from the glue and sinew of the Mongolian bows being affected. Going any further would mean even worse conditions from the Mongol military situation. There is also the fact that even then, France was relatively highly centralized. A third major reason was that Europe was a side show compared to Song China and Southwestern Asia.