Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Marion]

I don't like that idea myself. It's not even a dirty trick - it's a cheap trick. They're referred to as Shannon and Kanon in the entire game ('Sayo' only comes up when Shannon is alone with George) so that's why their names are used in Beatrice's red like that. Even if Beato likes to play tricks and troll I don't think she would employ such cheap tactics.

[Skullchukka]

Well, we don't know his real name, so that kind of a move wouldn't be cheap after all in my opinion.
Also, she uses such a wordgame, but It'll be spoiler If I post it now.

[ijriims]

Extending this line of thought, when Beatrice said "Nanjo is dead", "Shannon is dead" or "XX is dead", that XX could still be alive since she could latter add back that "The XX I said was just a person with the same name but not the one on Rokkenjima, so it was true"

So, in the end, no one died at all since all the people mentioned were just some random people who passed away long time ago.

[Skullchukka]

Myne was just a simple reasoning to defend the "Kanon is dead. is actually someone else besides the Kanon that we know." idea; since Kanon may not refer to our Kanon.

Remember it's a work-name. Maybe work names may be passed down from other servants who has worked on the island before. Or maybe Kanon was actually the first servant who worked there (his real name was Kanon), and the servants recieve the names like ranks.

Anyway, I don't have strong theories that proves who might have been the dead Kanon actually is, I'm only suggesting Kanon is dead is not the Kanon that we know, since it is not his real name.

Actually, on the VN character portraits, these are the following descriptions of Shannon & Kanon;

Shannon's:
Furthermore, "Shannon" is a pseudonym strictly used during work, and is not her real name.

Kanon's:
There are several other servants who have "on"　(音)　in their pseudonym. That day, he and Shannon just happened to be on duty.
Translations by Witch Hunt
Now, what could the "several other servants" mean? Are they the ones working on Rokkenjima, or are they the ones that are from the orphanage?
And what is exactly meant by "that day" in Kanon's portrait?

[Chishio no Hana]

Originally Posted by Marion

I don't like that idea myself. It's not even a dirty trick - it's a cheap trick. They're referred to as Shannon and Kanon in the entire game ('Sayo' only comes up when Shannon is alone with George) so that's why their names are used in Beatrice's red like that. Even if Beato likes to play tricks and troll I don't think she would employ such cheap tactics.

I know that she's supposed to be an all-knowing witch, but..... Beato never uses their real names. It could be possible that she doesn't know that Shannon/Kanon is fake, or she might not know their real names in the first place.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

There are several other servants who have "on"　(音)　in their pseudonym. That day, he and Shannon just happened to be on duty.
Translations by Witch Hunt
Now, what could the "several other servants" mean? Are they the ones working on Rokkenjima, or are they the ones that are from the orphanage?
And what is exactly meant by "that day" in Kanon's portrait?

Renon, Manon, etc?

"That day" obviously refers to October 4th.

[risingstar3110]

Wow the poll shaped quite randomly, remind me of all those Endless 8. Anyway, since we had the first 12 pages which mostly was about Deen and the adaptation. I will also want to have a few words about that:

First, I acknowledge that Deen really is bad at adaptation. I realised it since F/SN and it hold truth through Higurashi. I expected the same in Umineko and i guess i am still right. To say the truth, one thing that i want to see in my life is the day when Higurashi and Umineko will be re-animated by another studios, so then i can pass this anime to friends without explaining how much better the original source was (such a waste of this brilliant original source).

However i admit some scenes could be quite silly trying to fit it into the anime. The "Goat-kun" for example was quite hilarious in the source, but as an anime watcher, i will think it's quite ridiculous and unfitting. Vigilia(?)'s "childish" nature is also quite a wtf moment for what have showed so far in the anime. Then all of the mugic which sound so brilliant in the anime, probably can't fit with Deen's low-budged and lazy animation. In short, the problem is the adaptation method, and the cut-screens/events and the lack of BGM could not be helped since they will not fit in anyway

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

Actually, on the VN character portraits, these are the following descriptions of Shannon & Kanon;

Shannon's:
Furthermore, "Shannon" is a pseudonym strictly used during work, and is not her real name.

Kanon's:
There are several other servants who have "on"　(音)　in their pseudonym. That day, he and Shannon just happened to be on duty.
Translations by Witch Hunt
Now, what could the "several other servants" mean? Are they the ones working on Rokkenjima, or are they the ones that are from the orphanage?
And what is exactly meant by "that day" in Kanon's portrait?

Yes -- from what I understand, Kinzo employs a rotating number of young servants who are all from an orphanage he funds. They all have pseudonyms which end in "-on". Besides Shannon and Kanon, in the VN we did briefly see another one in a flashback of Shannon's, Renon. The only thing we know about her is that she's lazy.

Kinzo/Goldsmith implies that some or all of the -on servants are magical furniture that he created.

Also,

Spoiler for because I can't remember when this is mentioned in the VN, but I'm positive it's prior to this point in the anime:

It's also said that Kinzo's manner of creating furniture differs from other witches/sorcerors, in that he gives his furnitures souls, and that is why they are so powerful (and also why they can love).

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Yes -- from what I understand, Kinzo employs a rotating number of young servants who are all from an orphanage he funds. They all have pseudonyms which end in "-on". Besides Shannon and Kanon, in the VN we did briefly see another one in a flashback of Shannon's, Renon. The only thing we know about her is that she's lazy.

Kinzo/Goldsmith implies that some or all of the -on servants are magical furniture that he created.

Also,

Spoiler for because I can't remember when this is mentioned in the VN, but I'm positive it's prior to this point in the anime:

It's also said that Kinzo's manner of creating furniture differs from other witches/sorcerors, in that he gives his furnitures souls, and that is why they are so powerful (and also why they can love).

It was from EP2's Meta/Magic world TIPs.

[NoSohryuForYou]

I gave this episode a 1/10 for ruining my favorite moment in the whole series up to this point: the end of the Gaap/George & Ronove/Jessica fight. I'd give it a 0/10 if I could. Bad enough (though I suppose understandable) that the sequence had to be split up between episodes. But the timing here is awful. I literally fell out of my chair at that point in the VN, what with the split-second turnaround and Gaap's troll face. But the ending is so telegraphed here that I felt no excitement at all.

I've officially given up on watching this anime. I didn't want to -- I hate not finishing something I've started -- but DEEN's adaptation is appalling. The only good decision they made for this show, in my opinion, was the casting for Battler, Beatrice, and Bernkastel. Everything else has just been disappointment on top of disappointment.

[Ttak]

Originally Posted by NoSohryuForYou

I've officially given up on watching this anime. I didn't want to -- I hate not finishing something I've started -- but DEEN's adaptation is appalling. The only good decision they made for this show, in my opinion, was the casting for Battler, Beatrice, and Bernkastel. Everything else has just been disappointment on top of disappointment.

Well, if you've watched it till this episode, I believe you should at least end it (only 2 episodes left). But if you really are going to stop watching, farewell. Anyway, you won't be disappointed again with the Anime (unless you keep getting feedback on the next episodes, of course).

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by NoSohryuForYou

I gave this episode a 1/10 for ruining my favorite moment in the whole series up to this point: the end of the Gaap/George & Ronove/Jessica fight. I'd give it a 0/10 if I could. Bad enough (though I suppose understandable) that the sequence had to be split up between episodes. But the timing here is awful. I literally fell out of my chair at that point in the VN, what with the split-second turnaround and Gaap's troll face. But the ending is so telegraphed here that I felt no excitement at all.

I've officially given up on watching this anime. I didn't want to -- I hate not finishing something I've started -- but DEEN's adaptation is appalling. The only good decision they made for this show, in my opinion, was the casting for Battler, Beatrice, and Bernkastel. Everything else has just been disappointment on top of disappointment.

You're late to the party.

Originally Posted by Ttak

Well, if you've watched it till this episode, I believe you should at least end it (only 2 episodes left). But if you really are going to stop watching, farewell. Anyway, you won't be disappointed again with the Anime (unless you keep getting feedback on the next episodes, of course).

Indeed, there is the possibility that they might not completely botch the remaining episodes(Although that's more to do with just slashing everything else, and sorry, I like consistency with my adaptations.). Too bad DEEN's redesigns are so ugly to me that I can only bear playing key scenes I find recognizable.

[NoSohryuForYou]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

You're late to the party.

I realize my post comes a bit late, but I wanted to cool off for a while after watching the episode so I didn't just rage out all over the place (as I kind of felt like doing at first). I apologize if I interrupted the flow of current discussion.

Originally Posted by Ttak

Well, if you've watched it till this episode, I believe you should at least end it (only 2 episodes left).

My apprehensions about how disappointingly those last two episodes might turn out are the very reason why I'm not sticking with it any longer.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Chishio no Hana

I know that she's supposed to be an all-knowing witch, but..... Beato never uses their real names. It could be possible that she doesn't know that Shannon/Kanon is fake, or she might not know their real names in the first place.

Beato is the Game Master - she knows everything there is to know about any game that occurs, otherwise her red text wouldn't be nearly as trustworthy or even legible. I'm sure she knows about their names being aliases.

[ijriims]

I think it is because Battler only knew Shannon but not Sayo (reserved for George), there's no reason for Beatrice to say Sayo other than Shannon in her red texts. And probably Battler did not know Kanon's real name yet.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by NoSohryuForYou

I realize my post comes a bit late, but I wanted to cool off for a while after watching the episode so I didn't just rage out all over the place (as I kind of felt like doing at first). I apologize if I interrupted the flow of current discussion.
.

Uhh, I meant in terms of not watching the anime.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

Myne was just a simple reasoning to defend the "Kanon is dead. is actually someone else besides the Kanon that we know." idea; since Kanon may not refer to our Kanon.

Remember it's a work-name. Maybe work names may be passed down from other servants who has worked on the island before. Or maybe Kanon was actually the first servant who worked there (his real name was Kanon), and the servants recieve the names like ranks.

Anyway, I don't have strong theories that proves who might have been the dead Kanon actually is, I'm only suggesting Kanon is dead is not the Kanon that we know, since it is not his real name.

Actually, on the VN character portraits, these are the following descriptions of Shannon & Kanon;

Shannon's:
Furthermore, "Shannon" is a pseudonym strictly used during work, and is not her real name.

Kanon's:
There are several other servants who have "on"　(音)　in their pseudonym. That day, he and Shannon just happened to be on duty.
Translations by Witch Hunt
Now, what could the "several other servants" mean? Are they the ones working on Rokkenjima, or are they the ones that are from the orphanage?
And what is exactly meant by "that day" in Kanon's portrait?

I'm not going to argue back due to spoilers, but I really hate theories which go "Oh when Beatrice refers to Shannon she really means a Shannon in America who died recently" or some such bull. Theories which attempt to twist the red to suit their own ends irritate me, as it opens a door where we can remodel the red to suit us however we like, and thus makes it completely useless in the process.
And if the wordgame is what I think you're referring to, that's a completely different thing from "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead."

[Dlanor A. Knox]

We know that when she says "Kanon is death" that she means the Kanon in the Game Field and not in some other world.
but whe dont know if she really means our Kanon or someone else who had the title Kanon. and as I already said befoe, he could be death because is isnt funitre anymore but a human.

[maximilianjenus]

it depends on how you interpret dead, which is alreayd pretty cheap, and even so I am pretty sure she uses wording like "kanon was murdered" , killed, etc.. which make it even more ackward.

[Skullchukka]

Kanon is a work-name. Beato uses word games. You should be aware of it by now.
Why not use it on Kanon, which is not even a real name?

I'm not saying Kanon is dead is another person in another world. It might be an unknown worker (most likely a servant) who is actually named Kanon. You can't deny the possibility of an actual person named Kanon once existed on the island that we're not aware of. As silly as it may sound, this might as well be the case.

There might be other ways to justify Kanon is dead. But my point is not justifying red. Because our knowledge of what the actual red could have been is limited. What I'm trying to argue here is, "Kanon is dead" is most likely a dirty word-play Eva-Beato uses to trick Battler - nothing else.