Studio Ghibli: discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Guardian Enzo]

"Temporary" supposedly, to reassess the future. But it sounds like this is what Miyazaki has been predicting for a while now.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

Still it's strange. Their latest works made by other directors were if not so big hits as Miyazaki's or Takahata's works but still much more profitable than majority of anime movies.

The problem is, they have to pay the company expense and their studio only produce 1 movie a year at most and they have to hire lots of animator to stay true to Miyazaki's vision. Even if said movie is profitable, it's not enough to cover the expense of the studio while there's no movie coming out(even worst, some of their latest work's profit is relatively small for their business model).

This is indeed a very sad news and a great loss, but considering Ghibli has been spending the last several years searching for the next Sen to Chihiro(Spirited Away) without success, I guess this is to be expected.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's important to understand the difference between "box office gross" and "profit". Kaze Tachinu was the top-grossing film in Japan in 2013 (about $113M US) but so far, still lost money for the studio. The issue is that Ghibli still uses almost entirely traditional animation. They don't outsource - they draw their movies in Japan. And their animators are paid enough so that they don't need a kickstarter just so they don't have to live in a flophouse. And apparently, in today's environment, that's not sustainable.

Miyazaki's films have always vastly outgrossed all of Ghibli's other movies, include the rare Takahata release. Miyazaki's works always sell well - Ponyo was a huge blockbuster - so it's not as if Spirited Away was an outlier. The problem is that Miyazaki's movies need to be blockbusters just to break even, and something like Marnie - even allowing that it presumably had a smaller budget - isn't going to gross nearly as much as a Miyazaki film and is almost sure to lose money.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Innovate or die. There's no special reason why Japanese animation should "die", only the ways animators go about making them.

There's an important reason that animation has gone 3D in America for the better part of the past 15 to 20 years, and it's simply that it greatly improves animation productivity.

If manpower costs are a major reason for the woes of the Japanese animation industry, then it means that it has to find ways to produce more with whatever resources they have. So, in this sense, Studio Ghibli's stubborn insistence on sticking with traditional hand-drawn art and animation is a major factor in its downfall.

Much as I'd like animators to keep up their profession as perfectionist artisans, the economy is a bitch.

And no, I don't accept that adopting more effective technology would necessarily mean the end of Japanese animation. If Pixar could make it work without sacrificing the power of its stories, I don't see why the likes of Studio Ghibli can't, if they really tried.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

If Pixar could make it work without sacrificing the power of its stories, I don't see why the likes of Studio Ghibli can't, if they really tried.

If Pixar had made it work for me, I wouldn't have lost interest in their work (or Dreamworks Animation, which I like only slightly better for reasons that have little to do with animation and more with their particular sentimentality). If I do like a film of theirs (like Finding Nemo), it's never for the animation.

I don't refuse to watch these types of film (except if their action scenes make me queasy from motion sickenss), but if they take over I'll probably lose interest in animated films as a whole.

[bhl88]

I still prefer handdrawn by a lot (only for the characters), though it doesn't matter for me if the background is 3D (even though 2D backgrounds are good too)

*still looks at their movies*

[com_gwp]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

If Pixar had made it work for me, I wouldn't have lost interest in their work (or Dreamworks Animation, which I like only slightly better for reasons that have little to do with animation and more with their particular sentimentality). If I do like a film of theirs (like Finding Nemo), it's never for the animation.

It seems the main problem you have with Pixar/Dreamworks is their storytelling style. As you said, its never for the animation that you like their films, even going as far as to bring up Dreamwork's storytelling sentimentality; ergo, Ghibli (or the anime industry itself) switching to CGI production isn't the issue.

The key problem for the CGI format is that the japanese animation industry is lagging far behind in technical prowress and financial capabilities compared to its western counterparts. "Bad" CGI is commonplace because it is used as an animation stopgap and not properly embraced as an alternative format, except in rare cases.

I guess what I want to say is that the gradual shift to CGI production is something I see as a natural progression of standards. With that said, the potential decline of traditional animation as an art form is still something to mourn about.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

It seems the main problem you have with Pixar/Dreamworks is their storytelling style. As you said, its never for the animation that you like their films, even going as far as to bring up Dreamwork's storytelling sentimentality; ergo, Ghibli (or the anime industry itself) switching to CGI production isn't the issue.

Not true. Some things can overshadow the ugly animation and art. In the case of Finding Nemo (Pixar) it was humour and in particular Ellen deGeneres' voice work. That happens a lot more with Dreamworks, for me. But none of that can ever make me like the visuals. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the visuals on occasion, and I'm not ruling out that someone might someday come up with something that works for me. (Actually, the beginning of Wall-E comes close.)

It's precisely because of Pixar et al. that I know I don't want anime to switch to that. It's the face of my animation nightmares.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

It's precisely because of Pixar et al. that I know I don't want anime to switch to that. It's the face of my animation nightmares.

This is a common refrain I hear from fans of anime, the implication being that 3-D animation is somehow technically inferior to its hand-drawn predecessor.

To me, that's prejudice born from a Luddite perspective. Animation is animation — it's the art of creating the illusion of movement through a series of still pictures. Ultimately, 3-D animators need to know art and anatomy — and everything else needed to execute animation — just as well as traditional animators.

3-D animators have no less respect and love for their profession as traditional animators, and their skills are in no way inferior to those of their predecessors.

But, beyond that, I can appreciate that some will simply prefer the look and feel of hand-drawn animation over 3-D animation, just as plenty of music fans will continue to swear by vinyl over, say, digital MP3 format for sheer fidelity.

In which case, it's just a matter of taste, and there's no point arguing about that.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

In which case, it's just a matter of taste, and there's no point arguing about that.

It's definitely taste. I'm not arguing that it's "worse", or anything, in any other way than personal enjoyment. I don't have the knowhow to talk about the technical aspect, or skill.

Here's the thing, though. You may here complaints about this from anime fans, western animefans in particular (=guess), precisely because of Pixar & Co. I can't say I've been driven towards anime, because that 3D style has become so popular in the west. I've always watched anime. But the ratio of anime to western animation has certainly increased since.

See it from that perspective: you've found a refuge, but what you've been fleeing from is catching up with you. This has, if true, two consequences for you in situations like this: (a) it's taste, not prejudice, and (b) you're not going to convince people with reference to Pixar et al.

(There's a side issue: 3D animation is a lot more likely to give me motion sickenss. It's why I didn't watch Sidonia no Kishi, for example.)

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

See it from that perspective: you've found a refuge, but what you've been fleeing from is catching up with you. This has, if true, two consequences for you in situations like this: (a) it's taste, not prejudice, and (b) you're not going to convince people with reference to Pixar et al.

If you think about it, Hayao Miyazaki has been telling essentially the same story since penning the later volumes of the Nausicaa manga: An acceptance of inevitable extinction, balanced with a fierce will to lead a fulfilling life with whatever time is left.

Isao Takahata's approach isn't as bleak, but it also travels along essentially the same lines: bittersweet optimism amid a pervading sense of doom.

The question is: Must all Ghibli stories draw from this pathos? Why can't there be a different approach?

Whisper of the Heart was enjoyable for me because it was so fundamentally different from a Miyazaki movie.

And, to be sure, not everyone enjoys Miyazaki stories, let alone see them as the be-all and end-all of Japanese animation.

So, my point is, why can't Pixar be used as a yardstick of effective storytelling through the medium of animation? Must all Ghibli stories be like that in order for it to be "Ghibli"?

Again, it's an issue of innovation, and a willingness among fans to be open to such innovation.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

They don't outsource - they draw their movies in Japan. And their animators are paid enough so that they don't need a kickstarter just so they don't have to live in a flophouse. And apparently, in today's environment, that's not sustainable.

There's a middle ground between not outsourcing anything and outsourcing everything to korea.

Take wolf children, there's like 10 employees at studio chizu, the movie was made by a bunch of freelancers + a lot of outsourcing, and while there might be a bit of korea (like dr movie), most of it was to other japanese studios like P.A works,Silverlink,Tyo animation,white fox,deen, studio 4°C,kinema Citrus,artland,satelight...
Same thing happening in IG productions such as "a letter to momo" (and I'm sure will be the case for "Giovanni's Island " and "Sarusuberi")
That's the thing, ghibli barely cooperates with other japanese studios.
I also really liked the use of CG in wolf children, Hosoda said part of the reason he founded a new studio was because he felt the way things were at madhouse didn't allow for great communication between the handrawing animators and CG team members of the studio and that more than the talent of the animators was limiting how well the CG could be integrated.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But, beyond that, I can appreciate that some will simply prefer the look and feel of hand-drawn animation over 3-D animation, just as plenty of music fans will continue to swear by vinyl over, say, digital MP3 format for sheer fidelity.

In which case, it's just a matter of taste, and there's no point arguing about that.

While I agree that it's a matter of taste,I don't feel your analogy does the difference between the two justice, swearing by vynil instead of mp3 is somewhat like preferring cel coloring over digital coloring.
Asking 2D fans to start liking pixar 3D is like asking a bunch of jazz fans to start liking heavy metal because in the end they're both music.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

If you think about it, Hayao Miyazaki has been telling essentially the same story since penning the later volumes of the Nausicaa manga: An acceptance of inevitable extinction, balanced with a fierce will to lead a fulfilling life with whatever time is left.

Isao Takahata's approach isn't as bleak, but it also travels along essentially the same lines: bittersweet optimism amid a pervading sense of doom.

The question is: Must all Ghibli stories draw from this pathos? Why can't there be a different approach?

Whisper of the Heart was enjoyable for me because it was so fundamentally different from a Miyazaki movie.

And, to be sure, not everyone enjoys Miyazaki stories, let alone see them as the be-all and end-all of Japanese animation.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with liking or disliking Pixar-style 3D art/animation. For the record, I prefer Takahata over Miyazaki, and Ghibli is not the be-all and end-all of animation, to me.

I haven't seen Whisper of the Heart, but if it's not completely computer rendered 3D film (which I severly doubt), then it's clearly not what I'm talking about.

So, my point is, why can't Pixar be used as a yardstick of effective storytelling through the medium of animation? Must all Ghibli stories be like that in order for it to be "Ghibli"?

Again, it's an issue of innovation, and a willingness among fans to be open to such innovation.

Look, it's a visual argument. I know next to nothing about animation, and I'm bad at spotting individual styles, but the difference between traditional and 3D is so obvious that I can spot it instantly. And I haven't come across much I like. I don't know why that is so. If I knew, I'd tell you right here and now.

If anime makes films that look like Pixar I'm very unlikely to like that look (which is not the same thing as not liking the films). If all 3D films disappeared there's nothing I'd miss. If all 2D films would disappear, the most likely outcome is that I'd give up on animated films as a hobby (I'd still be a casual watcher probably).

The problem here isn't Ghibli itself. The problem is that Ghibli, a former bastion of quality 2D animation, goes 3D that can only mean a trend, and if it's true that computer generated 3D is cheaper...

I don't want the future of anime to be Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within or Haruka and the Magic Mirror. It feel like an Et-tu-Brute moment.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with liking or disliking Pixar-style 3D art/animation. For the record, I prefer Takahata over Miyazaki, and Ghibli is not the be-all and end-all of animation, to me.

I brought it up in support of com_gwp's point, because it wasn't immediately clear if you dislike Western animation because of its 3D animation or its style of storytelling.

Originally Posted by com_gwp

It seems the main problem you have with Pixar/Dreamworks is their storytelling style. As you said, its never for the animation that you like their films, even going as far as to bring up Dreamwork's storytelling sentimentality; ergo, Ghibli (or the anime industry itself) switching to CGI production isn't the issue.

And apparently, the type of animation isn't the issue for you:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The problem here isn't Ghibli itself. The problem is that Ghibli, a former bastion of quality 2D animation, goes 3D that can only mean a trend, and if it's true that computer generated 3D is cheaper...

And my point is, so what? If it's cheaper, more productive and, far more importantly, if it goes a long way towards ensuring the sustainability of animation studios, why oppose the technology?

But then you say:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I don't want the future of anime to be Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within or Haruka and the Magic Mirror. It feel like an Et-tu-Brute moment.

Aside from your issues with motion sickness — and I sympathise — there is really no essential difference between either form of animation. It's still about how best to combine a sequence of images to create the illusion of movement, and subsequently, how best to use such movement to convey the story.

Originally Posted by totoum

Asking 2D fans to start liking pixar 3D is like asking a bunch of jazz fans to start liking heavy metal because in the end they're both music.

You're going to have to explain why it doesn't fit, because I don't get your analogy either.

I suppose you oppose it because 3D animation to you isn't the same as hand-drawn animation, just as hand-drawn animation isn't "clay-mation", which is also animation, albeit based on stop-motion photography rather than drawing. In which case, I'd say we're arguing over technicalities. While it's true that 3D modelling isn't quite the same as drawing an object from scratch, I'd say that both relies on the same fundamental skill of being able to first visualise the object in your head and then "drawing" it based on that mental image. But, I sense we probably won't be able to agree on this, so I'll stop at that.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Aside from your issues with motion sickness — and I sympathise — there is really no essential difference between either form of animation. It's still about how best to combine a sequence of images to create the illusion of movement, and subsequently, how best to use such movement to convey the story.

At this point, there's really nothing left to say for me. I'll see how Ghibli does with Ronia in fall. They'll be using 3D, right?

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

At this point, there's really nothing left to say for me. I'll see how Ghibli does with Ronia in fall. They'll be using 3D, right?

As far I know, yes.

And by the way, if you have not seen Whisper of the Heart I encourage you too! It is an adaptation of a manga (which is also very good in my opinion), and some things were changed around, but the overall effect was still extremely well done, I thought. ^^

[Reckoner]

I too have an aversion to 3D CGI because of things like Pixar, but a lot of this is the kind of stories Pixar likes to tell. They're inherently very cartoony and nothing like what I receive from anime. There really isn't an equivalent version for anime.

I did try to watch Sidonia last season, but honestly I couldn't get past the visuals, they're just not up to par yet in Japan. I know for a fact it is exactly the kind of story I would love to watch, as far as I can tell from the manga as well, but the character animation is just too distracting.

I also just happen to have a love for the aesthetics of 2D animation and I am not sure how 3D CGI trying to imitate 2D animation is ever going to match it. I'm already sick of all the 3D CGI being integrated into anime and I doubt making it even more 3D is going to do anything for me personally. At that point I might have to retire this hobby and stick to things like manga.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by totoum

While I agree that it's a matter of taste,I don't feel your analogy does the difference between the two justice, swearing by vynil instead of mp3 is somewhat like preferring cel coloring over digital coloring.
Asking 2D fans to start liking pixar 3D is like asking a bunch of jazz fans to start liking heavy metal because in the end they're both music.

That is indeed a much better analogy.

I think Suzuki summed it up pretty well. Ghibli was set up so that the old lions who did so could try and make anime the way they wanted to, with minimal compromises. To a remarkable degree, they've been able to do that. If that's no longer possible and they decide to pack it in rather than fundamentally surrendering the idea of what Ghibli should be, is that something to be criticized? Is that Luddism? If indeed Ronia turns out to be their last work - and Ronia ends up looking like it looked in the PV - that will be a rather sad irony if you ask me.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Again, I don't see why it is the better analogy, but it probably stems from how I view 3D and hand-drawing as different expressions of a genre, while others see them as two entirely different genres.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Ghibli was set up so that the old lions who did so could try and make anime the way they wanted to, with minimal compromises. To a remarkable degree, they've been able to do that. If that's no longer possible and they decide to pack it in rather than fundamentally surrendering the idea of what Ghibli should be, is that something to be criticized?

I can respect their decision, but I don't have to respect their reasons for it.

Ghibli is their creation, and they certainly don't owe it to anyone but themselves what they wish to do with it.

But if the ultimate reason for folding is because it's no longer economically feasible to produce hand-drawn animation, then I see Ghibli's demise as a production house as a result of stubbornness and misplaced pride.

The unwillingness to change a tradition to suit the times is, at heart, the reason for the failure of many organisations around the world, not least those in Japan.

Traditions are good to have. And we should preserve as much of them as possible, especially since many of them are an integral part of our cultural identities.

But should we also preserve them to the extent that we jeopardise our ability to survive in conditions that are completely different from those that gave birth to our traditions? I have mixed feelings about such dedication. It is on one hand admirable, but on the other hand, also foolish.

Isao Takahata explored this dilemma quite well in Only Yesterday, when young farmer Toshio disabused Taeko of her naive and romantic view of the "natural beauty" of the Japanese countryside. Taeko saw the nature around her as something that had to be preserved against human alteration, but Toshio pointed out that everything she admired was in fact the result of human intervention over the years.

My point? Extinction is not inevitable. Only change is. To die because of a refusal to change is, in my view, not something that's always worth celebrating.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If indeed Ronia turns out to be their last work - and Ronia ends up looking like it looked in the PV - that will be a rather sad irony if you ask me.

Ronia could serve as a test to see how Ghibli might operate without an animation department.

Ultimately, that's how the project is organized. Ghibli (with Goro Miyazaki at the helm) controls the vision, but animation work is in the hands of a CG studio, Polygon Pictures. If the collaboration is successful, the company could feel justified in ditching internal production, but for now, they'll have to wait and see.