Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

My reading is that Sayaka is angry with Homura for what Homura did to the Law of Circles system. Her main complaint is that Homura broke it for personal gain. On a more personal level however, I think Sayaka prefers being alive than dead.

I think that you and FierceAlchemist are getting a bit too caught up with the viewpoint of alive is automatically greater than dead. That only applies, even generally speaking, if there is no afterlife. Sayaka and Nagisa were clearly enjoying some form of an afterlife. Who cares if you're technically "dead" if you're continuing to exist happily in some form of afterlife?

Sayaka was directly serving a higher power that was also her closest friend in life. She was serving a higher purpose that no doubt gave her a great sense of meaning and fulfillment in her existence. I'm sure there's a part of her that regrets her natural life being cut short at such a young age, but I'm also sure she felt much pride and satisfaction in serving the role she did under Madokami.

If offered a free choice between continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life, I think that Sayaka would choose to continue to serve under Madokami. And it wouldn't just be a matter of feeling morally obligated to make that choice, she'd choose it because she'd feel it would give her existence greater drive, purpose, and meaning. It would fulfill her in a way that normal life likely wouldn't.

Sayaka is definitely prone to embracing a largely selfless heroism. Taking up the mantle of the hero, and helping others, is much of what makes her happy, I think.


Now, I'm not saying that Homura did some grave injustice to Sayaka. Sayaka, with her memories altered, probably is pretty happy and content in Homu-verse. So Homura has made the situation as good as she could for Sayaka (and Nagisa, Mami, Kyouko, etc...), and I respect that. But I don't think Sayaka's happier or more content. I don't see any good reason to think that, other than taking positions that run contrary to Sayaka's established characterization.

The best argument for what Homura did is that, yes, it neutralizes the Incubators (an obvious weakness in Madoka's approach). So if you want to support Homura in what she did in this movie, then that's the best argument to go with, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Also, Sayaka literally has been characterized as content with throwing her normal life away for the sake of being a protector of justice and the innocent. She literally felt constantly guilty about being blessed and priviledged above other people who have it worse than her. She is seriously the last person besides Madoka herself who would turn away from the Law of Cycles even if you offered her a perfect life. The very idea that she might prefer it over what she had with Madoka strikes me as utterly preposterous.

I largely agree. If anything, I could easier see Madoka wavering over this than I could see Sayaka doing so. And that's because I think Madoka has more to lose. Madoka clearly has a great family, while Sayaka might not have that. And Madoka really did have to sacrifice her family here, as they don't even remember her any more. At least Sayaka's family probably still remembers her.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't have a problem with that. Especially since I am a Homura fan

Doesn't change that it's a problematic narrative structure.

I am sorta ok with the treatment of Kyoko, Mami and Madoka. They all had reasonable screentime. Obviously the TV series had more space to develop their characters. The movie is more about Homura's one-girl show. What I really have a problem with is Nagisa. She is a new character. She really needs more back story and characterisation than running around proclaiming her love for cheese.

Madoka and Mami I'll give you, but Kyoko getting the shaft is one of the most common complains about this movie. She's really only there for KyoSaya fanservice.

There are pros and cons. The movie already feels a little bit dragged out during the first half. There really isn't enough story for 12 episodes, especially if they want to keep the quality up. We also get much better visuals with the movie format. Having said that, I do hope we get a TV series next time. More time to develop any new characters, more story for all the girls, and worldbuilding. We desperately need more info about the new world under Homura.

The way Urobuchi talks about it, he had more content that got cut due to the movie format. I'm sure that'd include stuff like Homuverse worldbuilding, or Nagisa-development, more Nightmare fights that aren't just filler in some way....

I'll admit that the movie had really good pacing overall, though.

I largely agree. If anything, I could easier see Madoka wavering over this than I could see Sayaka doing so. And that's because I think Madoka has more to lose. Madoka clearly has a great family, while Sayaka might not have that. And Madoka really did have to sacrifice her family here, as they don't even remember her any more. At least Sayaka's family probably still remembers her.

Hell, Madoka has a great EVERYTHING. Her family and home life is perfect. Though her grades aren't the best, her mother's position means she'll have great connections in any future career she could go for, the way people talk about her implies she could have any boy (or girl) she likes if she were to just try, and she basically lived wanting for nothing.

Madoka's life was basically perfect; she was seriously the last person who should've been approached by Kyubey in the first timeline.

As for Sayaka? Even if she shares the same quality of life with Madoka in every respect, she can't have the one thing that defined a lot of her emotional conflict: Kyousuke; but, you know what?

The miracle she made for him was worth her entire life and more, to her. When given as objective a viewpoint as possible, everyone being able to hear his music was worth disappearing.

Madoka's world protected people's hopes as a first priority, but in Homuverse, there's atleast some reason to believe Homura will mess with people's wishes to give them what she believes is their happiness.

As well-intentioned as she is, that's an existential form of rape.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm aware. The point I was making is that none of this is necessary. She could just 'poot' them away into nothingness. She doesn't even seem to need to harvest them SPECIFICALLY, because Sayaka and co. can access memories of worlds Madokami didn't exist in, and Madoka herself spoke to Mami and Kyouko before her Ascension, and that scene can really mean a lot of things but that, plus the way Madokami is described, seems to imply that being collected by her is an inevitability.

It just seems to be a matter of whether you leave a corpse behind or not, to me. It just doesn't seem thematically appropriate for Madoka not to collect girls who die of other means because otherwise she's not becoming their Hope like she vowed to. Their situations and destinies were not changed by her wish.

That is fundamentally unacceptable given the narrative important of her wishing on behalf of all Magical Girls in all times and universes. To me, anyway.

When did Sayaka have memories of worlds Madokami didn't exist in? It was shown in episode 12 that even though Madokami didn't exist in all of Homura's timelines, she was able to see those universes.

It's also worth noting that the context of the scene between Madoka, Kyoko, and Mami is left very vague. I've seen some people argue that it's a conversation Madoka's having in her head rather than in the afterlife.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Indeed. I've kicked around the idea of all the other 'angels' aside from Mado/Saya/Nagisa are trying to run things without their Goddess, but if it's otherwise working fine then why does Madoka 'need' to go back?

If the Law of Cycles functions perfectly well without the Madoka component, then what will morally compel her to reintegrate with it? If there's no noticeable depreciation in her absence, then there is no appreciable gain, making it a truly worthless sacrifice. The kind that Madoka vowed to Homura she would never make. The kind the anime taught her never to consider.

That's what I think is interesting about the Homuverse. If the Law of Cycles does still work without Madoka, which seems to be implied by the existence of Wraiths rather than Witches, then Homura really has made a pretty great world and would be a little selfish of Madoka to want to return to the old one. That's a plot point I could see being very dramatic in the second season/4th movie.

At the same time, I feel like something has to break down at some point in order to cause Madoka's counter-rebellion, whether it's the law of cycles falling apart without Madoka or magical girls dying rather than being absorbed by her when they give into despair. I agree that there eventually has to be something, but it may not appear for a while.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that you and FierceAlchemist are getting a bit too caught up with the viewpoint of alive is automatically greater than dead. That only applies, even generally speaking, if there is no afterlife. Sayaka and Nagisa were clearly enjoying some form of an afterlife. Who cares if you're technically "dead" if you're continuing to exist happily in some form of afterlife?

Sayaka was directly serving a higher power that was also her closest friend in life. She was serving a higher purpose that no doubt gave her a great sense of meaning and fulfillment in her existence. I'm sure there's a part of her that regrets her natural life being cut short at such a young age, but I'm also sure she felt much pride and satisfaction in serving the role she did under Madokami.

If offered a free choice between continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life, I think that Sayaka would choose to continue to serve under Madokami. And it wouldn't just be a matter of feeling morally obligated to make that choice, she'd choose it because she'd feel it would give her existence greater drive, purpose, and meaning. It would fulfill her in a way that normal life likely wouldn't.

Sayaka is definitely prone to embracing a largely selfless heroism. Taking up the mantle of the hero, and helping others, is much of what makes her happy, I think.


Now, I'm not saying that Homura did some grave injustice to Sayaka. Sayaka, with her memories altered, probably is pretty happy and content in Homu-verse. So Homura has made the situation as good as she could for Sayaka (and Nagisa, Mami, Kyouko, etc...), and I respect that. But I don't think Sayaka's happier or more content. I don't see any good reason to think that, other than taking positions that run contrary to Sayaka's established characterization.

The best argument for what Homura did is that, yes, it neutralizes the Incubators (an obvious weakness in Madoka's approach). So if you want to support Homura in what she did in this movie, then that's the best argument to go with, in my opinion.

But it was shown in Rebellion that Sayaka had at least one serious regret, not being able to be with Kyoko. That and she cried when she got to talk to Kyosuke and and Hitmoi again. That shows there were definitely some lingering feelings and regrets that weren't solved by becoming one with Madokami.

And while I do think you bring up a good point with Sayaka's heroic self-sacrificing nature, in your hypothetical choice between "continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life," what disadvantage is there to choosing to live a normal life? The Law of Cycles is run via the power of Madoka's wish and all the countless magical girls she's absorbed up to that point in history. Would Sayaka holding off joining Madokami for another 60 years really impact the Law of Cycles?

The situation with Homura's soul gem was a very rare case in which Madoka needed her "angels" to help her since Kyubey was trying to trap her. What do the angels do the rest of the time? Just chill in heaven with Madoka and drink tea? Or are their individual consciousness absorbed by Madoka and they all become one conglomerate being of magical girls that's known as the Law of Cycles?

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that you and FierceAlchemist are getting a bit too caught up with the viewpoint of alive is automatically greater than dead. That only applies, even generally speaking, if there is no afterlife. Sayaka and Nagisa were clearly enjoying some form of an afterlife. Who cares if you're technically "dead" if you're continuing to exist happily in some form of afterlife?

Given that Homura unconditionally keeps Kyosuke's hand healed for Sayaka, it isn't far-fetched to imagine that Sayaka will want to go back to life to fix her other regrets. Namely Kyoko. Being together in life and being together in the afterlife are very different and it isn't greedy to want to experience both. The chance to go back to life from death doesn't come very often. The after life will come sooner or later and can wait.

I do admit that there is a lot of speculation involved and your interpretation may well be closer to the truth. I guess we'll find out in the sequel.

[juventus95]

Originally Posted by FierceAlchemist

Let's not forget that even in the Madoverse a good number of magical girls just died and didn't go to heaven with Madoka. She only took the ones who fell into despair, not the ones who were outright killed in battle. If the Law of Cycles has lost all its humanity then it is a big loss for magical girls, one I think would motivate Madoka to fight, but it's not nearly as bad as them becoming witches.

I think it's a very good argument that can be used against Madoverse. Magical girls, whether they will turn witch or not, help protect people against witches. Why only girls with corrupted Soul Gem receive blessings from "God Madoka" and spend eternity in Madoka's heaven? The anime or movie hasn't shown what happens to girls who are killed in battle or get their soul gems broken before. It would be interesting if the sequel introduces a new cast and shows two different factions of magical girls: one with Sayaka or Madoka and the other with Homura, all fighting when the world is falling apart.

[AuraTwilight]

When did Sayaka have memories of worlds Madokami didn't exist in? It was shown in episode 12 that even though Madokami didn't exist in all of Homura's timelines, she was able to see those universes.

Sayaka personally knows what Witches are, and is familiar with Madoka's human form. Both of those are intrinsically exclusive from Madokami.

It's also worth noting that the context of the scene between Madoka, Kyoko, and Mami is left very vague. I've seen some people argue that it's a conversation Madoka's having in her head rather than in the afterlife.

Indeed, but I don't really believe that because there's not much reason for her to just be talking to herself, and even if she did, why Mami and Kyouko specifically?

The only reason Sayaka seems to be included, scripturally speaking, is that she has a personal scene with her later on. Did Madoka 'know' that she'd be having one-on-one time with Sayaka, or something?

Was she already omniscient (let's not argue about what that means and just say it's whatever perceptions Madokami possesses) when she was having that conversation with Kyouko and Mami? If so what is the qualitative difference?

That's what I think is interesting about the Homuverse. If the Law of Cycles does still work without Madoka, which seems to be implied by the existence of Wraiths rather than Witches, then Homura really has made a pretty great world and would be a little selfish of Madoka to want to return to the old one. That's a plot point I could see being very dramatic in the second season/4th movie.

But why would she? Madoka has already learned that if she's going to sacrifice herself, it has to be for an extremely large net-gain in the betterment of everyone's situations, or all she's doing is hurting Homura and her other loved ones.

Madoka absolutely would not feel the urge to become Madokami again unless she is positive that it is necessary to prevent unfathomable amounts of suffering.

At the same time, I feel like something has to break down at some point in order to cause Madoka's counter-rebellion, whether it's the law of cycles falling apart without Madoka or magical girls dying rather than being absorbed by her when they give into despair. I agree that there eventually has to be something, but it may not appear for a while.

Agreed. I'm fine with Homuverse seeming perfect NOW if the catch is it's unstable and can't be sustained.

But it was shown in Rebellion that Sayaka had at least one serious regret, not being able to be with Kyoko. That and she cried when she got to talk to Kyosuke and and Hitmoi again. That shows there were definitely some lingering feelings and regrets that weren't solved by becoming one with Madokami.

To be fair her crying can mean a few things. I could just as easily argue she's crying because she subconsciously feels hurt by what Homura did to her and is lamenting what she lost while her conscious mind is happy with things.

But even if we concede that she has those regrets, it doesn't mean she feels it's worth it to satisfy them with the cost involved.

And while I do think you bring up a good point with Sayaka's heroic self-sacrificing nature, in your hypothetical choice between "continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life," what disadvantage is there to choosing to live a normal life? The Law of Cycles is run via the power of Madoka's wish and all the countless magical girls she's absorbed up to that point in history. Would Sayaka holding off joining Madokami for another 60 years really impact the Law of Cycles?

If Sayaka is any help at all, then yes, it could. Either A) The Law of Cycles functions at the exact same efficiency and effectiveness without her, in which case she wasn't meaningfully contributing and thus her feelings of purpose and accomplishment are a lie, or B) Removing her does cause some deficiency, however small or negligible, and if Sayaka is informed of this then living a happy life will make her feel guilty.

For the sake of argument, what if Sayaka wasn't present in Rebellion and there was no one to replace her? How badly could things have turned out?

The situation with Homura's soul gem was a very rare case in which Madoka needed her "angels" to help her since Kyubey was trying to trap her. What do the angels do the rest of the time? Just chill in heaven with Madoka and drink tea? Or are their individual consciousness absorbed by Madoka and they all become one conglomerate being of magical girls that's known as the Law of Cycles?

I imagine that requires knowing more about the "other side of the world." I don't feel inclined to think they all fuse into a single consciousness like some people speculate. If the epilogue of Oriko Magica is indicative of anything (and I'm aware it's really, really not, but), it seems Magical Girls get to live out opportunities to fix their regrets or otherwise help each other heal and develop.

It's my personal fanon, and I admit it as such, that Madoka's angels not only help her fight witches in an abstract sense (to ensure a certain future, you need to cut the branches off of a tree), but also that they populate a safe world of healing each other's wounds and encouraging the growth they're entitled to as human beings.

Basically think Evangelion's Instrumentality without the invasive mind-rape.

Given that Homura unconditionally keeps Kyosuke's hand healed for Sayaka, it isn't far-fetched to imagine that Sayaka will want to go back to life to fix her other regrets.

Unconditionally my ass. Sayaka still has a Soul Gem ring and everything, in Homuverse she still contracted legitimately.

I think it's a very good argument that can be used against Madoverse. Magical girls, whether they will turn witch or not, help protect people against witches. Why only girls with corrupted Soul Gem receive blessings from "God Madoka" and spend eternity in Madoka's heaven? The anime or movie hasn't shown what happens to girls who are killed in battle or get their soul gems broken before.

In fairness, we haven't been shown nearly enough about Madoverse; only enough to have internal consistency for worldbuilding. But we don't know how Wraiths fight, for instance, or what they can do.

Dialog does imply that Madokami comes for everyone, though, if only for the sake of poetic language.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To be fair her crying can mean a few things. I could just as easily argue she's crying because she subconsciously feels hurt by what Homura did to her and is lamenting what she lost while her conscious mind is happy with things.

I think it is obvious that those are tears of joy at seeing her friends again.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Unconditionally my ass. Sayaka still has a Soul Gem ring and everything, in Homuverse she still contracted legitimately.

Madoka gave Sayaka a choice in EP12. Your life, or Kyosuke's hand. Pick one, but not both. Sayaka chose to go to the afterlife and keep his hand healed. In other words, even Madokami cannot maintain a world where both (1) Sayaka is alive and (2) Kyosuke's hand is healed. (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive. If Kyosuke's hand is healed, Sayaka is dead. If Sayaka is alive, her contract is undone.

Homuverse is the first time in history where (1) and (2) exist at the same time. Homura brought Sayaka back to life, and kept his hand healed. Madoka would have undone Sayaka's contract to keep Sayaka alive. Homura gave Sayaka both.

Sayaka just had a big argument with Homura, aka the god of this universe with no apparent check on her power, that almost resulted in a fight. A lesser person may use Kyosuke's hand as leverage to keep Sayaka in line. Homura didn't, and that's what I meant by unconditionally.

I mean, if I were a god of this universe, I can do whatever I like and nobody can oppose me, I am not sure if I will keep in mind the wishes of someone who openly dislikes me, and make sure that such wishes come true.

[AuraTwilight]

I think it is obvious that those are tears of joy at seeing her friends again.

It could be, and I agree you're probably right. But Sayaka just came out of a mind-screw tizzy fit about not forgetting demons and moral outrage and morality warpings and memory-rewrites and whatnot. There's a margin of room for argument.

Madoka gave Sayaka a choice in EP12. Your life, or Kyosuke's hand. Pick one, but not both. Sayaka chose to go to the afterlife and keep his hand healed. In other words, even Madokami cannot maintain a world where both (1) Sayaka is alive and (2) Kyosuke's hand is healed. (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive. If Kyosuke's hand is healed, Sayaka is dead. If Sayaka is alive, her contract is undone.

This isn't really true because there's a period of time between Kyousuke's healing and Sayaka's death. Roughly a month's worth, infact, and Sayaka's death each time is caused by her own emotional downward spiral instead of anything objective.

Madoka had to make the ultimatum she made because she wasn't interfering with Sayaka's free thought, feelings, or actions. Homura did not. She rewrote Sayaka's memories and mind for her own convenience, whether or not Sayaka benefits from it.

Sayaka coexists with a healed Kyousuke because Homura violated her.

But of course, there's still no guarantee Sayaka's safe either.

Homuverse is the first time in history where (1) and (2) exist at the same time.

Or...you know...episode 4 of the anime up until episode 8.

And all the timelines where Sayaka contracted in the moments between that and her inevitable death/Witching out.

Seriously, the timeframe for Homuverse is roughly around the time Homura would've otherwise transferred in. Regardless of how sustainable Sayaka's new life is, it wouldn't of reached the point where she'd of hit rock bottom one way or another. Technically Homuverse hasn't trumped any universe as far as Sayaka-happiness goes, yet. That's something it has yet to prove and demonstrate.

Sayaka just had a big argument with Homura, aka the god of this universe with no apparent check on her power, that almost resulted in a fight. A lesser person may use Kyosuke's hand as leverage to keep Sayaka in line. Homura didn't, and that's what I meant by unconditionally.

Yea, a lesser person would have used an emotional tactic to make someone cooperate of their own free will instead of brainwashing them so they didn't have to have an actual discourse with them.

What?

I mean, if I were a god of this universe, I can do whatever I like and nobody can oppose me, I am not sure if I will keep in mind the wishes of someone who openly dislikes me, and make sure that such wishes come true.

Bear in mind Homura has an ulterior motive here; she didn't do it purely out of the goodness of her own heart. If Sayaka isn't happy, Madoka won't be happy. Maintaining the other girls is a necessary part of keeping Madoka content with the world Homura has created; the alternative is to erase those girls so that Madoka never knows them in any capacity.

I am not impressed with Homura's actions because she had a very clear, selfish benefit from them, and she still involved mindrape to do it. It's easy to give people what they want when you can rewrite their minds to be satisfied with what you've given them.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Madoka had to make the ultimatum she made because she wasn't interfering with Sayaka's free thought, feelings, or actions. Homura did not. She rewrote Sayaka's memories and mind for her own convenience, whether or not Sayaka benefits from it.

I suggest that you look at the movie sequence of Homura rewriting Sayaka's memories again. Homura didn't rewrite Sayaka's memories as part of the process of covering the universe in her barrier. When the world was remade, Sayaka's memories were intact. There was an intention on Homura's part to give Sayaka free will. The two argued, and Sayaka tried to summon Oktavia to fight Homura. Sayaka drew weapons first. It was then that Homura changed her memories.

Obviously, tempering with someone else's memories is very problematic, and I am sure Homura agrees. But, I am not sure what I would have done differently if I were Homura and someone in front of me is summoning a powerful weapon to fight me. Do I unleash my familiars on her? I am a god, so presumably I will win easily. Then what? Kill her? Put her in a dungeon? House arrest? Teleport her to another continent? None of these is nice.

Changing part of Sayaka's memories, as far as I see, is at least a peaceful solution that will allow Sayaka to experience happiness, as she herself admitted on-screen.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bear in mind Homura has an ulterior motive here; she didn't do it purely out of the goodness of her own heart. If Sayaka isn't happy, Madoka won't be happy. Maintaining the other girls is a necessary part of keeping Madoka content with the world Homura has created; the alternative is to erase those girls so that Madoka never knows them in any capacity.

I am not impressed with Homura's actions because she had a very clear, selfish benefit from them, and she still involved mindrape to do it. It's easy to give people what they want when you can rewrite their minds to be satisfied with what you've given them.

I don't think anybody is saying that Homura does it purely out of goodness of her heart. She is not, and does not claim to be, a saint. She claims the opposite, in fact. Nor should we judge her with the moral yardstick of a saint.

What I am saying is that she is no where near as evil as she claims to be. I think there is definitely an intention on her part to make the best out of the situation for her friends, given her decision to kidnap Madoka. She is a god. There is a huge range of options available to her to deal with her "Sayaka problem". If I were Homura, I will consider -

a) undoing her contract. This is fair on an "Equivalent Exchange" basis. This is what Madoka would have done to Sayaka if Sayaka chose to live in EP12. Sayaka is back to life, so why not undo her magical girl powers, and put Kyosuke back to the hospital? Just out of spite, for argument's sake.

b) if I am worried about Madoka's feelings, then the solution is simple. Write Sayaka out of Madoka's memories so that Sayaka never existed in Madoka's mind. Then teleport Sayaka to Timbuktu or something. Just get her out of my sight. This is someone who plans to overthrow me afterall.

c) create an obedient Sayaka clone to fool Madoka. Jail the real one in another continent. I can even give her a nice house to sooth my conscience.

Out of all these options, Homura chose the one that will keep Sayaka happy and keep her magical girl wish intact, something that is very important to Sayaka. She is no saint, but it is a lot more than what a normal human would have done for an enemy.

Funny, I think Homura will actually agree with you rather than me on your assessment of her

[AuraTwilight]

I suggest that you look at the movie sequence of Homura rewriting Sayaka's memories again. Homura didn't rewrite Sayaka's memories as part of the process of covering the universe in her barrier. When the world was remade, Sayaka's memories were intact. There was an intention on Homura's part to give Sayaka free will. The two argued, and Sayaka tried to summon Oktavia to fight Homura. Sayaka drew weapons first. It was then that Homura changed her memories.

Obviously, tempering with someone else's memories is very problematic, and I am sure Homura agrees. But, I am not sure what I would have done differently if I were Homura and someone in front of me is summoning a powerful weapon to fight me. Do I unleash my familiars on her? I am a god, so presumably I will win easily. Then what? Kill her? Put her in a dungeon? House arrest? Teleport her to another continent? None of these is nice.

Changing part of Sayaka's memories, as far as I see, is at least a peaceful solution that will allow Sayaka to experience happiness, as she herself admitted on-screen.

This is pretty arguable; that Homura rewrote absolutely everyone else's memories as a matter of course implies that Sayaka resisted it in a similar manner that Madoka almost did at the end.

If Homura wanted to just disarm her, she could. "Oops, your powers don't work anymore, and I'm omnipotent. Have fun looking like a crazy person if you attempt to stop me, I hold all the cards. Now try and enjoy yourself."

No existential rape, but Homura still wins. She did it because, primarily, she doesn't want Sayaka interfering with things. Sayaka's happiness is a side-benefit at best.

I don't think anybody is saying that Homura does it purely out of goodness of her heart. She is not, and does not claim to be, a saint. She claims the opposite, in fact. Nor should we judge her with the moral yardstick of a saint.

What I am saying is that she is no where near as evil as she claims to be.

Well DUH. She clearly hates herself for what she's doing and is playing up the evil Satan Mode act to hide possible suicidal thoughts.

Doesn't change that people are trying to morally justify Homura's actions.

If I were Homura, I will consider -

a) undoing her contract. This is fair on an "Equivalent Exchange" basis. This is what Madoka would have done to Sayaka if Sayaka chose to live in EP12. Sayaka is back to life, so why not undo her magical girl powers, and put Kyosuke back to the hospital? Just out of spite, for argument's sake.

b) if I am worried about Madoka's feelings, then the solution is simple. Write Sayaka out of Madoka's memories so that Sayaka never existed in Madoka's mind. Then teleport Sayaka to Timbuktu or something. Just get her out of my sight. This is someone who plans to overthrow me afterall.

c) create an obedient Sayaka clone to fool Madoka. Jail the real one in another continent. I can even give her a nice house to sooth my conscience.

Out of all these options, Homura chose the one that will keep Sayaka happy and keep her magical girl wish intact, something that is very important to Sayaka. She is no saint, but it is a lot more than what a normal human would have done for an enemy.

Or D) Stop Sayaka from being able to interfere without undoing her wish OR changing her memories.

Or E) Talk to her like a mature person. "Yea, I know, but I can't get closure unless I do this. I'll let Madoka go back when she has a full human life. Do you want me to turn you into Sayakami temporarily to fill the gap, or something? Kyubey's going to keep going after her unless I do something drastic like this."

Even if D and E don't work, options F+ probably also exist. You're being pretty short-sighted if the only thing you can think to do with Homura's power is stomp Sayaka under your almighty boot. I don't know what I should take from that, honestly.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She did it because, primarily, she doesn't want Sayaka interfering with things. Sayaka's happiness is a side-benefit at best.

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. Homura's priority has been and always will be Madoka. Of course Sayaka's happiness is secondary. What impressed me is that Homura puts Sayaka's interest in second place at all. Sayaka hates Homura and plans to overthrow her. A normal human reaction is to screw an enemy over. A better person's reaction is to ignore an enemy's happiness. A decent person will place an enemy's happiness in second place. Like I said, we shouldn't expect Homura to be a saint.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or D) Stop Sayaka from being able to interfere without undoing her wish OR changing her memories.

Like how? I have yet to see the details.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or E) Talk to her like a mature person. "Yea, I know, but I can't get closure unless I do this. I'll let Madoka go back when she has a full human life. Do you want me to turn you into Sayakami temporarily to fill the gap, or something? Kyubey's going to keep going after her unless I do something drastic like this."

Homura did try the talking strategy with Sayaka. Didn't work. It isn't like talking is one of Homura's strong points, given her background. She has shown consistently that she is very poor at communication and convincing others to see things her way. It doesn't help that she always try to put up a tough as nails facade in her speeches and appearance.

I also don't think Sayaka is the type that can be convinced by talking. Especially not by Homura. The chemistry between the two is bad, to say the least.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Even if D and E don't work, options F+ probably also exist. You're being pretty short-sighted if the only thing you can think to do with Homura's power is stomp Sayaka under your almighty boot. I don't know what I should take from that, honestly.

Again, I have yet to see the details of your options F+.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Sayaka personally knows what Witches are, and is familiar with Madoka's human form. Both of those are intrinsically exclusive from Madokami.

Except that the Madokami that talked to Homura and Sayaka in episode 12 clearly hadn't lost her memories of Witches or her human life. She can see all possible universes, there's not much Madokami doesn't know.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Indeed, but I don't really believe that because there's not much reason for her to just be talking to herself, and even if she did, why Mami and Kyouko specifically?

The only reason Sayaka seems to be included, scripturally speaking, is that she has a personal scene with her later on. Did Madoka 'know' that she'd be having one-on-one time with Sayaka, or something?

Was she already omniscient (let's not argue about what that means and just say it's whatever perceptions Madokami possesses) when she was having that conversation with Kyouko and Mami? If so what is the qualitative difference?

I'm more inclined to believe that she's talking with Mami and Kyoko in some sort of afterlife, but I don't think she's omniscient at that point. She truly becomes the Law of Cycles, this omnipresent concept, after she destroys her own witch and erases her existence.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To be fair her crying can mean a few things. I could just as easily argue she's crying because she subconsciously feels hurt by what Homura did to her and is lamenting what she lost while her conscious mind is happy with things.

But even if we concede that she has those regrets, it doesn't mean she feels it's worth it to satisfy them with the cost involved.

I rewatched the scene on the camrip. She doesn't start tearing up until Kyosuke and Hitomi says hello to her and she turns in their direction. That and her line about how "being able to say hello to Kyosuke and Hitomi again. I never even imagined how happy that would make me." would suggest she's crying because of them not Homura.

And I doubt she'll stand for Homura's world when the truth comes out or it begins to unravel, but Homura has given her a happiness she couldn't have before. Homura didn't have to give the other girls happy lives but she did. As shown in her soul gem world, Homura's ideal scenario is safely being magical girls with all her friends.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If Sayaka is any help at all, then yes, it could. Either A) The Law of Cycles functions at the exact same efficiency and effectiveness without her, in which case she wasn't meaningfully contributing and thus her feelings of purpose and accomplishment are a lie, or B) Removing her does cause some deficiency, however small or negligible, and if Sayaka is informed of this then living a happy life will make her feel guilty.

For the sake of argument, what if Sayaka wasn't present in Rebellion and there was no one to replace her? How badly could things have turned out?

I imagine that requires knowing more about the "other side of the world." I don't feel inclined to think they all fuse into a single consciousness like some people speculate. If the epilogue of Oriko Magica is indicative of anything (and I'm aware it's really, really not, but), it seems Magical Girls get to live out opportunities to fix their regrets or otherwise help each other heal and develop.

It's my personal fanon, and I admit it as such, that Madoka's angels not only help her fight witches in an abstract sense (to ensure a certain future, you need to cut the branches off of a tree), but also that they populate a safe world of healing each other's wounds and encouraging the growth they're entitled to as human beings.

Basically think Evangelion's Instrumentality without the invasive mind-rape.

I kinda doubt if the other magical girls can have a big impact on the Law of Cycles since episode 12 showed that just Madoka alone, powered by her wish, is perfectly capable of saving all the magical girls. Yes she needed Sayaka and Nagisa for the events of Rebellion but that's a very unique, rare scenario. 99% of the time Madoka doesn't have to fear the consequences of going down to earth to save a magical girl.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. Homura's priority has been and always will be Madoka. Of course Sayaka's happiness is secondary. What impressed me is that Homura puts Sayaka's interest in second place at all. Sayaka hates Homura and plans to overthrow her. A normal human reaction is to screw an enemy over. A better person's reaction is to ignore an enemy's happiness. A decent person will place an enemy's happiness in second place. Like I said, we shouldn't expect Homura to be a saint.

What I'm saying is that Sayaka's happiness is a complete requirement for Homura to get what she wants. The alternative is to keep changing more and more parts of Madoka's life until it's unrecognizeable.

Like how? I have yet to see the details.

Well, as we literally saw in the movie, Homura can just clap her hands and shut down Sayaka's magic on a whim, irrespective of memory-altering since that came a few moments later.

She's functionally omnipotent; she has infinity options until we see otherwise.

Homura did try the talking strategy with Sayaka. Didn't work. It isn't like talking is one of Homura's strong points, given her background. She has shown consistently that she is very poor at communication and convincing others to see things her way. It doesn't help that she always try to put up a tough as nails facade in her speeches and appearance.

I also don't think Sayaka is the type that can be convinced by talking. Especially not by Homura. The chemistry between the two is bad, to say the least.

You're right, but the point I'm getting at is that Homura has options besides "Mindrape" and "dispose of this person entirely."

She didn't really try talking to her as I suggested either since she played up the Satan act to GOAD Sayaka into being as upset with her as possible.

Except that the Madokami that talked to Homura and Sayaka in episode 12 clearly hadn't lost her memories of Witches or her human life. She can see all possible universes, there's not much Madokami doesn't know.

Uh...I wasn't saying otherwise, bro? I was speaking about Sayaka's memories, not Madoka's.

I'm more inclined to believe that she's talking with Mami and Kyoko in some sort of afterlife, but I don't think she's omniscient at that point. She truly becomes the Law of Cycles, this omnipresent concept, after she destroys her own witch and erases her existence.

Agreed. What I was trying to say is that if it were a hallucination like some have argued it would imply that she possesses her omniscience because of the reasons I talked about.

I rewatched the scene on the camrip. She doesn't start tearing up until Kyosuke and Hitomi says hello to her and she turns in their direction. That and her line about how "being able to say hello to Kyosuke and Hitomi again. I never even imagined how happy that would make me." would suggest she's crying because of them not Homura.

And I doubt she'll stand for Homura's world when the truth comes out or it begins to unravel, but Homura has given her a happiness she couldn't have before. Homura didn't have to give the other girls happy lives but she did. As shown in her soul gem world, Homura's ideal scenario is safely being magical girls with all her friends.

Fair enough.

I kinda doubt if the other magical girls can have a big impact on the Law of Cycles since episode 12 showed that just Madoka alone, powered by her wish, is perfectly capable of saving all the magical girls. Yes she needed Sayaka and Nagisa for the events of Rebellion but that's a very unique, rare scenario. 99% of the time Madoka doesn't have to fear the consequences of going down to earth to save a magical girl.

While I'm inclined to agree, Sayaka clearly gained some sort of meaning and purpose besides that one scenario. It seems like Madoka has some sort of use for everyone outside of specific situations such as that.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, as we literally saw in the movie, Homura can just clap her hands and shut down Sayaka's magic on a whim, irrespective of memory-altering since that came a few moments later.

She's functionally omnipotent; she has infinity options until we see otherwise.

I don't think the movie has given us a lot of details about exactly what Homura's powers and limitations are. She certainly seems omnipotent from what we've seen. But unlike Madoka, she doesn't seem to be omnipresent. Homura is different from Madoka in that she is physically present on earth. Homura is not an abstract concept. That to me implies that Homura is not omnipresent.

What I am saying is that, yes, it is obnoxious for Homura to change Sayaka's memories. But given that Sayaka plans to fight Homura, I struggle to think of a more gentle or nice way for Homura to keep Sayaka in line. Homura may disarm Sayaka once. But then what? If Homura is not omnipresent, she can't follow Sayaka around 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and clap her hands whenever Sayaka plans to rebel. From the movie, it doesn't seem like Homura had a lot of time to decide what to do with Sayaka. Talks just broke down, Sayaka almost summoned Oktavia. Homura only had a few seconds to react before the fight began. At that point, any form of negotiation is no longer possible.

You blame Homura for goading Sayaka into attacking, and that's a fair point. But I think Sayaka also has to share part of the blame for taking the bait. You said Homura should have talked things through with Sayaka. Fair enough, but the same should apply to Sayaka - she should have made a greater effort to talk to Homura as well, instead of summoning Oktavia when she felt like it.

I am not sure exactly what Homura did to Sayaka. Sayaka explcitly said that she would never forget that Homura is the devil, and I take her word for it. That to me seems like Homura's changes to Sayaka's memories are not permanent. These changes are probably reversible. The fact that Madoka almost regained kamihood supports this.

I rest my case.

[juventus95]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What I'm saying is that Sayaka's happiness is a complete requirement for Homura to get what she wants. The alternative is to keep changing more and more parts of Madoka's life until it's unrecognizeable.

Most people I know behave like Homura when it comes to making their beloved ones happy. Probably because from where I come from, it doesn't matter what motivated the person to help you or use you to get attention from their loved ones.

Madoka is always Homura's first priority. Remember, Homura is a devil so it doesn't surprise me if she places Sayaka's freewill last in her priority order. At least the devil is playing nice, letting Sayaka alive and heal Kyosuke's hands.

You're right, but the point I'm getting at is that Homura has options besides "Mindrape" and "dispose of this person entirely."

She didn't really try talking to her as I suggested either since she played up the Satan act to GOAD Sayaka into being as upset with her as possible.

Based on anime, Sayaka is a bit hot-headed and she is the type of person that will see you as either her friend or her enemy. There's no ground in between them. Since she doesn't have good relationship with Homura and sometimes she acts hostile towards her, she probably won't listen to any reasons coming from Homura. I remember she doesn't accept Grief Seed from Homura. Even if she doesn't know she will turn into witch, her body is getting weaker plus her magic is low so it's reasonable to cleanse her Soul Gem. But nope. She doesn't want to get help from Homura.

Also, in the movie, Homura mentions that she would take care of the Wraiths herself. I don't see how she can 100% focus on her work and deal with Sayaka's challenge at once. Not that what she does is right, but it's a plausible resolution.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, in the movie, Homura mentions that she would take care of the Wraiths herself.

This is incorrect.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Uh...I wasn't saying otherwise, bro? I was speaking about Sayaka's memories, not Madoka's.

But earlier you said,"Sayaka personally knows what Witches are, and is familiar with Madoka's human form. Both of those are intrinsically exclusive from Madokami." Witches and Madoka's human form are not exclusive of Madokami. In fact, the only reason Sayaka knows about the old world is because she's now one with Madokami and is able to perceive all universes. When she was alive in the Madoverse, Sayaka was just as clueless about witches as everyone else.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

While I'm inclined to agree, Sayaka clearly gained some sort of meaning and purpose besides that one scenario. It seems like Madoka has some sort of use for everyone outside of specific situations such as that.

I hope they explain that in the next TV show/movie, exactly what their role is. Sayaka calls herself Madoka's "personal secretary" but that could mean any number of things (though i like to imagine a huge office building full of magical girls in front of typewriters doing Madokami's paperwork).

[MegamiMiko]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Even lovers can come to blows depending on circumstances. Ever watch the final season of Shakugan no Shana?

Spoiler:

Forcibly changing the world in order to ensure the one you love's happiness even if it means becoming their enemy? Yuji and Homura have a lot in common…

[AuraTwilight]

But earlier you said,"Sayaka personally knows what Witches are, and is familiar with Madoka's human form. Both of those are intrinsically exclusive from Madokami." Witches and Madoka's human form are not exclusive of Madokami. In fact, the only reason Sayaka knows about the old world is because she's now one with Madokami and is able to perceive all universes. When she was alive in the Madoverse, Sayaka was just as clueless about witches as everyone else.

Please read that in context: I was responding to someone contesting Sayaka having memories of other worlds. A world where Madokami exists is a world where witches and Madoka Kaname do not. When Sayaka was collected by Madoka, she seems to have become perfectly aware of her past lives.

Add that Madoka collects all Magical Girls in time-space before she becomes witches, and that seems to imply she gathers all iterations of a person, not just the "Madoverse" ones. I imagine the previous worlds were destroyed/overwritten because of the paradox this entailed.

I hope they explain that in the next TV show/movie, exactly what their role is. Sayaka calls herself Madoka's "personal secretary" but that could mean any number of things (though i like to imagine a huge office building full of magical girls in front of typewriters doing Madokami's paperwork).

I still love that fanart where Madoka's posed like Gendo Ikari except it's completely not sinister, and Sayaka is Fuyutsuki.