Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Well if everyone progresses just to survive sounds ok with me. I mean progression just to gain control lead to such developments such as the Freya bomb. It's not like the progression already made by the current code geass world pre-Ragnarok was like the stone age anyways. Society will not stagnate. Everyone has to bow their heads to some form of rule otherwise there will be no order. The Apocalypse will not occur just because we know how much an asshole everyone is lol.

Sounds like a world of the living dead. I like being separate and different. I like keeping my secrets. I like finding out about others. I like not knowing things. I like change and the joy of surprise. I understand that life will hold sad and painful times but pain is a part of life. Without pain you won't be able to understand joy or happiness. You can condemn yourself to such an existence but count me out.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Var

Ruling is impossible without deceit. One cannot possibly rule a nation/empire without lying to someone somewhere. If you tell everyone the truth aways, then there will always be some faction that hates you.

That's a little blown out of proportion. Everyone agrees to some consensus of rules some time or another. Everyone agrees that we should not kill, steal, ect. The golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Knowing the truth just makes enforcing them easier. Humanity isn't comprised of monsters.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

That's a little blown out of proportion. Everyone agrees to some consensus of rules some time or another. Everyone agrees that we should not kill, steal, ect. The golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Knowing the truth just makes enforcing them easier. Humanity isn't comprised of monsters.

No, saying everyone is blowing things out of proportion. Not everyone agrees on any of those things. Some people believe killing is a neccessity, others do not. Some people frown upon stealing, others take pity based on the situation.

Knowing the truth makes enforcing certain things harder. It takes deceit and lies to set up a sting for example, or to plan a raid, or to capture a criminal. Which becomes impossible once people become incapable of lying. Further, ruling is impossible without lies. This is along the same lines as communism. Everyone always wants to be treated in a specific way. Lies are a way to make people complacent because they do not know that, for example, it is impossible for you to make it rain candy. The moment leaders lose the ability to tell lies, even white lies to appease the populace, things do not get better. They get worse. There will be strife because, simply, person X got what they wanted while person Y did not.

And, you're quite mistaken, Humanity is comprised of monsters. Every single one of us.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well everyone must follow their own path but I'd rather know the truth and be the master of my own destiny than be the pawn or expendable tool of another. Practicing what you preach is the one virtue which can allow me to die with dignity and become better than what we are.

Originally Posted by Var

Knowing the truth makes enforcing certain things harder. It takes deceit and lies to set up a sting for example, or to plan a raid, or to capture a criminal. Which becomes impossible once people become incapable of lying. Further, ruling is impossible without lies. This is along the same lines as communism. Everyone always wants to be treated in a specific way. Lies are a way to make people complacent because they do not know that, for example, it is impossible for you to make it rain candy. The moment leaders lose the ability to tell lies, even white lies to appease the populace, things do not get better. They get worse. There will be strife because, simply, person X got what they wanted while person Y did not.

If you plan a raid, you are practically in a declaration of war. You either attack or defend. Sneaky tactics shouldn't be necessary in a honest world. Better that people take responsibility for their actions rather than have their victims seek vengeance upon people who don't deserve it. Capturing a criminal would be easier since the criminal cannot hide. No one can lie to protect him not even himself. People rely on government for protection. They will not dissent if the government does it's job. No one is selfish or stupid enough to be an anarchist just because everything doesn't go their way. People rely on the government to keep order and protection. Individual desires have no place in a governed society. All that matters is that the leaders provide them with the protection they need. Leaders like Shniezel are smart enough to hold on to power with out the use of lies. If anything, they might keep a smart but untrustworthy leader but keep a closer eye on him or her. That's why Charles nominated Shniezel for the position of leader. If anything people will flock under the rule of government just so they don't have to fend for themselves. A world without lies is Democracy in it's purest form.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Well everyone must follow their own path but I'd rather know the truth and be the master of my own destiny than be the pawn or expendable tool of another. Practicing what you preach is the one virtue which can allow me to die with dignity and become better than what we are.

I never said that was a bad thing, persay. On a small scale that works. But due to the fact that it is an idealistic concept, the moment you apply it to a larger group, it falls apart.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Var

In short, everything stop. And, eventually, humanity goes extinct.

Eventually, humanity goes extinct anyway. But aside from that. Listen, all the destruction of lies leaves is the truth. If you think that people can't dredge up the motivation to stay alive unless they are tricked into doing it, then what does that tell you about the value of life? Why force people to keep on living pointlessly? That's just as selfish as telling them the truth.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

There is no progression in survival alone, only the instinct to survive. Humanity would not strive to control that which threatened them, if even bother to avoid it since the dead aren't really dead.

You know what you can do when you don't have to control things to ensure your existance? You can control things for shits and giggles. You don't need to be worried about society becoming stagnant; since getting bored of our fellow humans is inevitable, we would spend our time constructively screwing with other things. Ah, that provides motivation for staying alive, too; you can't wrestle grizzly bears if you haven't got hands--you can only watch.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Sounds like a world of the living dead. I like being separate and different. I like keeping my secrets. I like finding out about others. I like not knowing things. I like change and the joy of surprise. I understand that life will hold sad and painful times but pain is a part of life. Without pain you won't be able to understand joy or happiness. You can condemn yourself to such an existence but count me out.

The Ragnorok Connection would only have closed the door on human uncertainty. You could not know about and be surprised by the rest of the world as much as you liked. Be separate and different from mountains. Learn to understand and feel pain from losing pets. Keep secrets from and see change in trees. Understanding other humans wouldn't render life meaningless by any means.

Originally Posted by Var

Ruling is impossible without deceit. One cannot possibly rule a nation/empire without lying to someone somewhere. If you tell everyone the truth aways, then there will always be some faction that hates you.

Now now, Var, you're being a bit shortsighted. Ragnorok's removal of lies isn't onesided: think about it a little. What happens when universal understanding is achieved? Separate minds are forced to acknowledge each other, and the superior ones are vindicated by consensus. With intricate insight into the considerations behind a ruler's actions, the ruled understand they couldn't do any better. Similarly, constantly aware of the will of his people, a ruler becomes entirely accountable for his actions. To be frank, true leaders and followers are realized. Although you tried to dismiss this as an idealization, this kind of development is actually inevitable in such a situation.

Originally Posted by Var

And, you're quite mistaken, Humanity is comprised of monsters. Every single one of us.

Here's that human-centric egotism again. I blame the church and society. :P No, we are not all monsters. We are just dirty little animals, same as the rest of the living world.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You know what you can do when you don't have to control things to ensure your existance? You can control things for shits and giggles. You don't need to be worried about society becoming stagnant; since getting bored of our fellow humans is inevitable, we would spend our time constructively screwing with other things. Ah, that provides motivation for staying alive, too; you can't wrestle grizzly bears if you haven't got hands--you can only watch.

Shits and giggles is a matter of pride, the ability to say one can for the recognition of the fact. Pride would not exist. You're still stuck on the incorrect belief that people would somehow retain the ability to act as individuals in this, which they wouldn't. Society would collapse because there'd be no need for it to exist. People would just exist, with no motivation to do anything.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The Ragnorok Connection would only have closed the door on human uncertainty. You could not know about and be surprised by the rest of the world as much as you liked. Be separate and different from mountains. Learn to understand and feel pain from losing pets. Keep secrets from and see change in trees. Understanding other humans wouldn't render life meaningless by any means.

Wrong. The Ragnarok connection would have closed the door on individuality itself. That is what the masks are. They are individual minds in a sea of consciousness, which would have been destroyed. To your end point, yes, understanding other humans would render life meaningless. Life is discovery, both about the world around us and about others. Understanding all that there is to understand about everyone everywhere, and by extension all that they know, would make further discovery pointless and impossible, because there'd be no more drive to discover.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The Ragnorok Connection would only have closed the door on human uncertainty. You could not know about and be surprised by the rest of the world as much as you liked. Be separate and different from mountains. Learn to understand and feel pain from losing pets. Keep secrets from and see change in trees. Understanding other humans wouldn't render life meaningless by any means.

You've got to be kidding. I don't want to forced to understand other people. I want to be able to chose who I get to know and I want to chose what I want others to know about me. I don't want people knowing my secrets, faults, insecurities, fears, and dark desires. I don't want to know about the things my Mom, sister, girlfriend did with guys in their past. Hell no! I'm about to vomit thinking about it.

Human interaction of what makes life worth living. After Ragnorok Connection though watching pain dry will be much more exciting that interacting with other humans. I don't even have to understand and feel pain from losing a pet because I'll already understand the feeling from a billions of other people minds so there wouldn't be a point in it. Why experience something when some other person has already experience it before for you?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

You're still stuck on the incorrect belief that people would somehow retain the ability to act as individuals in this, which they wouldn't.

Wrong. The Ragnarok connection would have closed the door on individuality itself. That is what the masks are. They are individual minds in a sea of consciousness, which would have been destroyed. To your end point, yes, understanding other humans would render life meaningless. Life is discovery, both about the world around us and about others. Understanding all that there is to understand about everyone everywhere, and by extension all that they know, would make further discovery pointless and impossible, because there'd be no more drive to discover.

Morbofist, if individuality has disappeared then why did Bismark tell Shniezel that Charles wanted him to be the new leader in the post Ragnarok world. What point is there for political guidance if we are all forced to follow some universal will?

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

You've got to be kidding. I don't want to forced to understand other people. I want to be able to chose who I get to know and I want to chose what I want others to know about me. I don't want people knowing my secrets, faults, insecurities, fears, and dark desires. I don't want to know about the things my Mom, sister, girlfriend did with guys in their past. Hell no! I'm about to vomit thinking about it.

Human interaction of what makes life worth living. After Ragnorok Connection though watching pain dry will be much more exciting that interacting with other humans. I don't even have to understand and feel pain from losing a pet because I'll already understand the feeling from a billions of other people minds so there wouldn't be a point in it. Why experience something when some other person has already experience it before for you?

Rick seriously, it sounds like you are closing your eyes on reality. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it will go away or that it never happened. Choosing ignorance is the easy way out. No one is asking you to do anything but don't pretend that bad stuff never happened and shut it out of your mind.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Morbofist, if individuality has disappeared then why did Bismark tell Shniezel that Charles wanted him to be the new leader in the post Ragnarok world. What point is there for political guidance if we are all forced to follow some universal will?

Bismark also said the meaning of politics would change, and he wasn't being all that clear about what would happen. He was practically mocking him.

Charles and Marianne, however, were quite explicit on what they planned to do. They were going to kill God, that which divides humans into individuals, thereby removing the ability of anyone, anywhere, to possibly lie. Marianne also clearly states that all the scattered people will become one, with both each other and those who have passed on. Hell, even Lelouch recognizes that life would become pointless because the world would become complete, a solitary place where past and future have no meaning. It is a world only kind to oneself, because there is only one person, the unified will that is leftover after God is gone.

All you're doing is trying to dilute the meaning of what they said, and it's not going to work. What they planned amounts to nothing less than wiping out individuality, because any individuality would mean the ability to lie and hide aspects of onself remains.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Shits and giggles is a matter of pride, the ability to say one can for the recognition of the fact. Pride would not exist. You're still stuck on the incorrect belief that people would somehow retain the ability to act as individuals in this, which they wouldn't. Society would collapse because there'd be no need for it to exist. People would just exist, with no motivation to do anything.

Wrong. The Ragnarok connection would have closed the door on individuality itself. That is what the masks are. They are individual minds in a sea of consciousness, which would have been destroyed. To your end point, yes, understanding other humans would render life meaningless. Life is discovery, both about the world around us and about others. Understanding all that there is to understand about everyone everywhere, and by extension all that they know, would make further discovery pointless and impossible, because there'd be no more drive to discover.

Shits and giggles is a matter of fun. As for your continued insistence on shared consciousness, SportsXtrm72 has provided the counterpoint, but I'm going to throw in something as well. Here's some psychological analysis from Kaioshin's comments section, even though I pretty much trolled him in same said comments section:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin

It’s really not though [a ripoff of Evangelion]. It’s so much more like Issac Dornkirk’s Zone of Absolute Fortune from Escaflowne. The concept that Charles spoke of sounds nothing like the Human Instrumentality project. It’s just that because of Evangelion’s popularity every plan that involves directing the course of humanities future in an anime ends up getting compared to it. For the record.

Charles goal was not to remove the seperation from everybody in the sense that they become one being, but to remove the masks from the people of the world that allow them to lie to and deceive one another. To let their true intentions come to the surface.

Anyway as for you and Slick Rick. The sum of human experience is nowhere near a complete understanding of the world. If the meaning in life is discovery, consider this: humans around the world are constantly achieving new discoveries. There is so much we don't know out there, and so much more to do--far more than one human could possibly achieve in a lifetime. And yet, if we pooled our knowledge--our thoughts and understanding--just think how much you could be learning every day. A world with universal human understanding is not closed at all--in fact, it is nearly limitless in potential.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Rick seriously, it sounds like you are closing your eyes on reality. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it will go away or that it never happened. Choosing ignorance is the easy way out. No one is asking you to do anything but don't pretend that bad stuff never happened and shut it out of your mind.

I'm not closing my eye to reality. I'm chose how I want to define my reality. I chose what's important to me, what I want to know, and what I don't want to know. Do I want to know how everyone feels about me? Their opinions on me? No I don't. I don't also want to let people know how I feel about them. I want to chose who I let in.

Do I want my girlfriend to know all my secrets? Do I want to know hers? Nope. I understand we have all done things in our past and made mistakes. They don't define us as people. I mean we've all done a few strippers in the back off a club once or twice (or ten times) but do we really need others to know about it?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Bismark also said the meaning of politics would change, and he wasn't being all that clear about what would happen. He was practically mocking him.

Charles and Marianne, however, were quite explicit on what they planned to do. They were going to kill God, that which divides humans into individuals, thereby removing the ability of anyone, anywhere, to possibly lie. Marianne also clearly states that all the scattered people will become one, with both each other and those who have passed on. Hell, even Lelouch recognizes that life would become pointless because the world would become complete, a solitary place where past and future have no meaning. It is a world only kind to oneself, because there is only one person, the unified will that is leftover after God is gone.

All you're doing is trying to dilute the meaning of what they said, and it's not going to work. What they planned amounts to nothing less than wiping out individuality, because any individuality would mean the ability to lie and hide aspects of onself remains.

Obviously we differ on interpretation but I provided evidence to back up my statement. But morbofist you can't counter my point by using the "They said this. I'm right you're wrong. Ok? Done." argument. At least explain to me why we would need Shniezel as a leader if we don't have individual free will?

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I'm not closing my eye to reality. I'm chose how I want to define my reality. I chose what's important to me, what I want to know, and what I don't want to know. Do I want to know how everyone feels about me? Their opinions on me? No I don't. I don't also want to let people know how I feel about them. I want to chose who I let in.

Do I want my girlfriend to know all my secrets? Do I want to know hers? Nope. I understand we have all done things in our past and made mistakes. They don't define us as people. I mean we've all done a few strippers in the back off a club once or twice (or ten times) but do we really need others to know about it?

whoa whoa whoa Did i just read the past does not define us as people?
/facepalm

[White Manju Bun]

Guys remember this is ROMANCE in Code Geass. If you want to discuss the specifics of Ragnarok, do it in an appropriate thread and for god sakes stop with the stupid tags!!

[Narona]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Guys remember this is ROMANCE in Code Geass. If you want to discuss the specifics of Ragnarok, do it in an appropriate thread and for god sakes stop with the stupid tags!!

I agree, because this tag "varxnarona " sucks . Who did that è_é?

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Guys remember this is ROMANCE in Code Geass. If you want to discuss the specifics of Ragnarok, do it in an appropriate thread and for god sakes stop with the stupid tags!!

Just for the record.
I think VarXNarona is very romantic. XD
Anyways the dice has been through this episode i am expect epic awesomeness or
EPIC FAIL for sunrise.
I better get a damn Kiss sometime for Kalulu Sunrise.
MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[Sports72Xtrm]

So now that Nunally is supposedly rumored to be alive, NunallyXSuzaku still has a chance. She'll change Suzaku back I know it : )

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

So now that Nunally is supposedly rumored to be alive, NunallyXSuzaku still has a chance. She'll change Suzaku back I know it : )

back to what exactly?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Witacume

back to what exactly?

Back to his old the means don't justify the ends self.