[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I can't speak for Yasu, but the Fantasy scenes look like they were supposed to contradict; probably since we're SUPPOSED to discard the Fantasy as bullshit.

This is very obvious in episode 7. The things which seem like plotholes (Shannon's age, seating positions, the sleeping arrangements, the whole of the tea party?) were intended as clues.

And I'd say the mirror thing was pretty important if the actual mystery of the series involves Beatrice's heart.

[alarmadadna hadi]

I can't speak for Yasu, but the Fantasy scenes look like they were supposed to contradict; probably since we're SUPPOSED to discard the Fantasy as bullshit.

I thought one of the points of fantasy is to hand you a mystery-like setting and then hide the crucial "key" of how a culprit hides behind shkanon in fantasy scenes. This way one who understands authors world view (reflected by terminology, especially witch as inner ideal self and furniture as non-delusional imaginary friends who act out users will) can grasp the essence of solution, as it is not as much as X is culprit as much as how author 'forces' him to be.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, yes, thematically you're correct. I'm talking in terms of narrative, though, since as a Lose condition, the Fantasy scenario should be coherent and satisfying enough that it's tempting as an easy way out.

[winter 923]

Is it possible that Battler is Yasu? The Piece "Battler" is just so inconsistency and things like the "strange internet drugs" doesn't make sense. He was 12 they saw him last. There isn't anything strange about a boy still growing in that age. Another thing is that his Birthday is not in June and still wasn't in Oct. ...There is still 29 Nov.

Actually we can totaly ignore Battler
-Yasu does the fake murdery so that someone in the family gets to be the head so she can just be a normal maid that leaves the family and be with George instead of everyone recognicing her as a Family Member.
-Maria is said to be recognizing People on their behavor and Battler is playing with her but also joking, scolding, lying and hitting her but it's allways Battler.
-He never actually does anything that effects the world and that what he does is ridiculous, crashing a door open at the end of EP1?
-Young Kinzo is a copy of Battler.

The love duell is another thing. Shannon/George is understandable even Kanon/Jessica can be argued but Beatrice/Battler is off. Battler gave birth to Beatrice hence the "father" and the Kinzo refference. The concept of love between these 2 is different.

Because Battler comes back to Rokkenjima there will be a big tragedy. But we can turn that around. When a big tragedy happens Battler will be included into the sacrifice story. EP 7 didn't had Battler and there still was a killing spree, actually it didn't even had anykind of gunpowder that the EP7 Tea Party had but that's another story.

Spoiler for The other story:

Anyway my mind wandered and i thought about the "key" the 1 Billion Yen Bankcard. As said in the Tea party this is real power, not the tons of unmovable gold but in Lion's world s/he shouldn't have the time to prepare that card. So why did Kyrie go on a rampage. I always did thought that Battler has strong blood. The son of the heir of the Sumadera (no one leaves the Sumadera unscratched) and also the second male in the Ushiromiya family and George was willing to leave the family.

In a perfect World Kyrie just needs to blackmail Krauss into leaving his position to the next Generation and George turns the back to the family and lives a happy life with a maid. In the worst case she just needs to kill everyone, she still has Ange.

The Epitaph doesn't exist in EP7. Same as Battler it could have been added to the sacrifice story, it really made me angry when Kinzo said even he could forget how to solve the riddle and it didn't exist prior the killing spree in EP7. I guess it was pointed out already a dozen times but with EP7 pointing to Kyrie i'm just going to throw it into the room again. Quadrillion, hence LORD U can mean Kyrie Ushiromiya

[AuraTwilight]

Is it possible that Battler is Yasu? The Piece "Battler" is just so inconsistency and things like the "strange internet drugs" doesn't make sense. He was 12 they saw him last. There isn't anything strange about a boy still growing in that age. Another thing is that his Birthday is not in June and still wasn't in Oct. ...There is still 29 Nov.

The hell are you talking about? Battler's birthday is 07/15.

Actually we can totaly ignore Battler
-Yasu does the fake murdery so that someone in the family gets to be the head so she can just be a normal maid that leaves the family and be with George instead of everyone recognicing her as a Family Member.
-Maria is said to be recognizing People on their behavor and Battler is playing with her but also joking, scolding, lying and hitting her but it's allways Battler.
-He never actually does anything that effects the world and that what he does is ridiculous, crashing a door open at the end of EP1?
-Young Kinzo is a copy of Battler.

This doesn't mean anything. The first two points don't prove anything, the third point only proves that Battler is supposed to be our narrator, and the fourth? Um, dur, they're grandfather and grandson.

The love duell is another thing. Shannon/George is understandable even Kanon/Jessica can be argued but Beatrice/Battler is off. Battler gave birth to Beatrice hence the "father" and the Kinzo refference. The concept of love between these 2 is different.

No it's not. Beatrice was created to love Battler. She only calls him "Father" because her shyness means she doesn't know how to approach him and she doesn't want to bother him with romantic tension during his important duties.

That, and that whole thing was partially an allegory to Kinzo/Beatrice 2 to give us some hints about the past.

Because Battler comes back to Rokkenjima there will be a big tragedy. But we can turn that around. When a big tragedy happens Battler will be included into the sacrifice story. EP 7 didn't had Battler and there still was a killing spree, actually it didn't even had anykind of gunpowder that the EP7 Tea Party had but that's another story.

Because Bern is full of bullshit.

Anyway my mind wandered and i thought about the "key" the 1 Billion Yen Bankcard.

The bankcard is not the "key."

The Epitaph doesn't exist in EP7. Same as Battler it could have been added to the sacrifice story, it really made me angry when Kinzo said even he could forget how to solve the riddle and it didn't exist prior the killing spree in EP7. I guess it was pointed out already a dozen times but with EP7 pointing to Kyrie i'm just going to throw it into the room again. Quadrillion, hence LORD U can mean Kyrie Ushiromiya

The Epitaph was created before Rosa was born. There's no way it can actually mean Kyrie. The Epitaph exists even in Lion's World, Kinzo just didn't make it's existence publically known.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Thinking about the disabillity Yasu recieved after Natsuhi attempted to kill her. Jessica is the only one we know with an llness (her asthma). I doubt falling from great heights lead to astmha, though, but supposeing it's something else, just similar to astmha or something ..

Well, either way, maybe it's supposed to be hidden what her injury is, and I guess it would make no sense that Jessica suddenly turned into Lion, considering the age difference. But I do wonder about it still.

[Goat-Kun]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Thinking about the disabillity Yasu recieved after Natsuhi attempted to kill her. Jessica is the only one we know with an llness (her asthma). I doubt falling from great heights lead to astmha, though, but supposeing it's something else, just similar to astmha or something ..

Well, either way, maybe it's supposed to be hidden what her injury is, and I guess it would make no sense that Jessica suddenly turned into Lion, considering the age difference. But I do wonder about it still.

Jessica said in EP7 to Will that the asthma was a fake excuse. She used it when things were not going in her desired manner or made her extremely moody. Kind of like a child crying on purpose.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The hell are you talking about? Battler's birthday is 07/15.

Meta-Beatrice thinks otherwise or else she wouldn't give him his present "to early". I think that was in EP 3 or 4. Battler responded the same you did.

This doesn't mean anything. The first two points don't prove anything, the third point only proves that Battler is supposed to be our narrator, and the fourth? Um, dur, they're grandfather and grandson.

Yes he's supposed to be our narrator, like he was simply written into this story to have a Watson that doesn't interfere with anything. He is not stupid and likes mystery novels and he still follows Erika without remembering too much how to get to the gold. He was simply put there to hint. None of his sons looked like him so it's not a simple dur

No it's not. Beatrice was created to love Battler. She only calls him "Father" because her shyness means she doesn't know how to approach him and she doesn't want to bother him with romantic tension during his important duties.
That, and that whole thing was partially an allegory to Kinzo/Beatrice 2 to give us some hints about the past.

You'r saying it's an allegory to Kinzo/Beatrice 2 but in the same time you say Beatrice has romantic feelings for Battler but is just to shy?

Because Bern is full of bullshit.

She is but to create a Game you have to atleast follow some structures.

The bankcard is not the "key."

What i mean with key is...a important appeal. You don't kill someone for no reason if you're sane. Killing for 1 Billion might be a good reason for some people. In Lion's world there is no 1 Billion on a Bankaccount and the whole crew doesn't know about the bomb to cover up the killing.

The Epitaph was created before Rosa was born. There's no way it can actually mean Kyrie. The Epitaph exists even in Lion's World, Kinzo just didn't make it's existence publically known.

Wait what? Why? There is no need for him to have a paranoid coded riddle to the frontdoor to his gold. He has a key for the backdoor.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by Goat-Kun

Jessica said in EP7 to Will that the asthma was a fake excuse. She used it when things were not going in her desired manner or made her extremely moody. Kind of like a child crying on purpose.

Hmm, must have forgotten.
Did she always use it as an excuse, or just sometimes?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Meta-Beatrice thinks otherwise or else she wouldn't give him his present "to early". I think that was in EP 3 or 4. Battler responded the same you did.

No really. What are you talking about? Quote from the game please?

You'r saying it's an allegory to Kinzo/Beatrice 2 but in the same time you say Beatrice has romantic feelings for Battler but is just to shy?

He said "partially". As in "it's not an allegory in it's entirety."

And she IS shy. Remember that love talk with Virgilia and Dlanor in episode 5?

[AuraTwilight]

Jessica said in EP7 to Will that the asthma was a fake excuse. She used it when things were not going in her desired manner or made her extremely moody. Kind of like a child crying on purpose.

She actually has asthma, she just fakes coughs sometimes to get out of uncomfortable situations. Honestly, it's not like a doctor comes to visit the island regularly or anything, right?

Thinking about the disabillity Yasu recieved after Natsuhi attempted to kill her. Jessica is the only one we know with an llness (her asthma). I doubt falling from great heights lead to astmha, though, but supposeing it's something else, just similar to astmha or something ..

Well, either way, maybe it's supposed to be hidden what her injury is, and I guess it would make no sense that Jessica suddenly turned into Lion, considering the age difference. But I do wonder about it still.

Jessica isn't Yasu or Lion. That doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense.

Meta-Beatrice thinks otherwise or else she wouldn't give him his present "to early". I think that was in EP 3 or 4. Battler responded the same you did.

Considering the current date from their perspective is...October, yea...

Yes he's supposed to be our narrator, like he was simply written into this story to have a Watson that doesn't interfere with anything. He is not stupid and likes mystery novels and he still follows Erika without remembering too much how to get to the gold. He was simply put there to hint. None of his sons looked like him so it's not a simple dur

Genes can skip a generation. You know that, right? It's commented that Kinzo's blood is strongest in Battler.

Battler doesn't remember shit in EP5 because he's a piece Lambdadelta is moving, not Meta-Battler.

You'r saying it's an allegory to Kinzo/Beatrice 2 but in the same time you say Beatrice has romantic feelings for Battler but is just to shy?

I said partially. Things can be one thing and represent another. An example would be Zepar and Furfur, who not only represent the power of love and it's ability to be harsh, but also seem to be magical forms of Shannon and Kanon, left gender-ambiguous and act as theatrical jokers because Shannon and Kanon are shams Yasu is putting up.

She is but to create a Game you have to atleast follow some structures.

Well, it's not a Game, so who cares? It's more like a story since there's no player interaction.

What i mean with key is...a important appeal. You don't kill someone for no reason if you're sane. Killing for 1 Billion might be a good reason for some people. In Lion's world there is no 1 Billion on a Bankaccount and the whole crew doesn't know about the bomb to cover up the killing.

It's not the "Key." You can't "unlock the Closed Rooms" with it.

Wait what? Why? There is no need for him to have a paranoid coded riddle to the frontdoor to his gold. He has a key for the backdoor.

The Epitaph mechanism is built into the church, which has been there since Kinzo first settled on the island, meaning he had already come up with the Epitaph by that time. Kinzo probably felt like using it eventually when he had to decide on an heir. He's a romantic, remember?

[Revelation]

This is really random, but does anyone else think that maybe


Or perhaps Kumasawa is Kinzo's real wife?

I don't know... these three characters always seemed really ambiguous to me. I know Kumasawa already has a son, but who knows, maybe Kumasawa left Kinzo for the longest time (It says in her tips she often resignes in the middle of her job)... Also, she already has a Virgilia-Beatrice form. (Most likely given by Yasu though. ) Maybe Beatrice 1 grew too old for Kinzo, and now she's back for the lol money.

Yes, I know this is all irrelevant.

[winter 923]

No really. What are you talking about? Quote from the game please?

Yea you are going to make me read the whole games again -_- This is gona take some time but im gona find it. give me 2 or 3 weeks. the following is not the real quote but what i can remember. It started with the normal Beatrice trolling i think about nicely wraped up corpses or closed rooms and that it could be a birthday present for him and as a sideline she apologized that she is giving it to him to early but she can only exist on these 2 days whereupon he replied with something like "Who'd want such a present. Besides my Birthday was alread."

Genes can skip a generation

That's just a silly saying and overused. Yes i know it can, i just don't like it.

Well, it's not a Game, so who cares? It's more like a story since there's no player interaction.

That's nitpicking in my opinion. Then how about "to write the story you need to follow some guildlines"

It's not the "Key." You can't "unlock the Closed Rooms" with it.

Like i said, a badly choosen word on my side. It isn't the key in the Epitaph and it isn't any key to unlock closed Rooms or riddles but it is a keyelement to start the killing spree.

The Epitaph mechanism is built into the church, which has been there since Kinzo first settled on the island, meaning he had already come up with the Epitaph by that time. Kinzo probably felt like using it eventually when he had to decide on an heir. He's a romantic, remember?

My point is that there is no Mechanism in the church in the first place and only exists as a hint from Yasu at the real murder, the same as Battler was put in to be a narrator. If the Epitaph existed in the real world it should only go to the 8th twilight maybe the 10th but if the last paragraphs weren't altered after Beatrice died they have strange meanings. The souls of all the dead can be the soldiers but the lost love?

[AuraTwilight]

Yea you are going to make me read the whole games again -_- This is gona take some time but im gona find it. give me 2 or 3 weeks. the following is not the real quote but what i can remember. It started with the normal Beatrice trolling i think about nicely wraped up corpses or closed rooms and that it could be a birthday present for him and as a sideline she apologized that she is giving it to him to early but she can only exist on these 2 days whereupon he replied with something like "Who'd want such a present. Besides my Birthday was alread."

Because it is October. Battler's birthday was months ago. Do you know what 07/15 means?

That's just a silly saying and overused. Yes i know it can, i just don't like it.

Well that's just too bad. Recessive genetics exist in the real world.

That's nitpicking in my opinion. Then how about "to write the story you need to follow some guildlines"

Either way, does it really matter? What guidelines are broken, here? As long as everyone dies and Eva escapes, it doesn't matter; it's a shut catbox.

My point is that there is no Mechanism in the church in the first place and only exists as a hint from Yasu at the real murder, the same as Battler was put in to be a narrator. If the Epitaph existed in the real world it should only go to the 8th twilight maybe the 10th but if the last paragraphs weren't altered after Beatrice died they have strange meanings. The souls of all the dead can be the soldiers but the lost love?

No, there's a mechanism. It's in Yasu's confessions about her past, and it's even brought up how Genji always cleaned that section of the church himself for that reason. If we're just going to ignore entire chapters of the novel to suit our theories, then fuck it. No one died and Battler's just having a bad dream due to being nervous about meeting his family after 6 years. Rosa isn't actually single and she and Maria are a loving family with no abuse. Kinzo is alive and is as nice as Santa Claus.

Also, you don't understand metaphor at all.

The 9th Twilight refers to the Witch reviving, or "the person who solves this is the new Head, who Kinzo acknowledges as Beatrice."

the 10th Twilight, you will arrive at the Golden Land (the room with the gold).

The Lost Love refers to Beatrice. Kinzo acknowledges whoever solves the Epitaph as Beatrice.

[zibbazabba905]

Spoiler for size:

Is he alliterating on how she was turned and thus couldn't see what happened, or is it some kinda bomb of "hey guess what, Maria's actually blind!"?

[AuraTwilight]

She was turned around. She can't be blind, she uses her sense of sight too much. Will uses a lot of metaphor.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Because it is October. Battler's birthday was months ago. Do you know what 07/15 means?

I do, well in my country its DD/MM/YY but whatever and if someone had already birthday (like Battler) i'd give him a present belated since it's only 2 months backwards instead of giving him a present for something that's in the new year in about 9 months.

No, there's a mechanism. It's in Yasu's confessions about her past, and it's even brought up how Genji always cleaned that section of the church himself for that reason. If we're just going to ignore entire chapters of the novel to suit our theories, then fuck it. No one died and Battler's just having a bad dream due to being nervous about meeting his family after 6 years. Rosa isn't actually single and she and Maria are a loving family with no abuse. Kinzo is alive and is as nice as Santa Claus.

It's in her confession, she also did FLY around and spoke with demons. Also i think that Rosa and Maria are a loving family.

The 9th Twilight refers to the Witch reviving, or "the person who solves this is the new Head, who Kinzo acknowledges as Beatrice."

the 10th Twilight, you will arrive at the Golden Land (the room with the gold).

The Lost Love refers to Beatrice. Kinzo acknowledges whoever solves the Epitaph as Beatrice.

Yes the 10th twilight is a dead giveaway even i can see that and yes the Witch reviving is also clear but your argument was that the Epitaph was made when he first settled down on the island. Beatrice is alive at that moment why the talk about rescurrecting lost love or Witches.
"One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.
Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice."
I sure hope Kinzo hid this well from Beatrice, if i'd read this i would get angry. Also he didn't like wills but made a riddle for the next head in his twentys? What if Kinzo died before Beatrice? Isn't that riddle useless since he got the silver onewinged ring that he can give Beatrice's Child.

[Renall]

If Maria were actually bind, all that stuff about closing her eyes so people can do magic for her would be kind of a dick move.

"Okay Maria. Do you want me to conjure some candy?"
"Yes, Beatrice!"
"Alright. Close your ey- ooohhh, right."

[AuraTwilight]

I do, well in my country its DD/MM/YY but whatever and if someone had already birthday (like Battler) i'd give him a present belated since it's only 2 months backwards instead of giving him a present for something that's in the new year in about 9 months.

Well Battler wasn't born in the year 1915 and there's no 15th month. There's honestly no excuse.

The "present" is about half a year away no matter which direction you go in, is the thing.

It's in her confession, she also did FLY around and spoke with demons.

Come now, there's a difference between real-world details like Yasu's servant life and magical metaphors. If you're going to act like only the red truth is trustworthy, then you shouldn't waste your time reading Umineko.

Yes the 10th twilight is a dead giveaway even i can see that and yes the Witch reviving is also clear but your argument was that the Epitaph was made when he first settled down on the island. Beatrice is alive at that moment why the talk about rescurrecting lost love or Witches.
"One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.
Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice."
I sure hope Kinzo hid this well from Beatrice, if i'd read this i would get angry. Also he didn't like wills but made a riddle for the next head in his twentys? What if Kinzo died before Beatrice? Isn't that riddle useless since he got the silver onewinged ring that he can give Beatrice's Child.

Beatrice 2 was implied to be born already by the time he settled on Rokkenjima. Beatrice Castiglioni doesn't seem to have ever lived on Rokkenjima.

The riddle was probably made as a contingency incase something happened to Beatrice or if he needed an heir that didn't have Beatrice's blood or something. Kinzo is a man who spins roulettes and bets on miracles; he's not one who requires a high certainty to set up big plots decades in advance.

If the need to use the Epitaph never comes up, he simply never tells anyone and everything assumes it's a perfectly normal church.

If Maria were actually bind, all that stuff about closing her eyes so people can do magic for her would be kind of a dick move.

"Okay Maria. Do you want me to conjure some candy?"
"Yes, Beatrice!"
"Alright. Close your ey- ooohhh, right."

Let's not forget all the stuff she does that requires sight, like...being shy when she SEES Battler at the airport, or freaking out when she SEES that the shrine is missing, or READING A GODDAMN LETTER.

People who think Maria is blind are dense as hell.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Also i think that Rosa and Maria are a loving family.

Well, they love each other, yeah. But, I mean ... ... ... I ... ... no.

Originally Posted by Renall

If Maria were actually bind, all that stuff about closing her eyes so people can do magic for her would be kind of a dick move.

"Okay Maria. Do you want me to conjure some candy?"
"Yes, Beatrice!"
"Alright. Close your ey- ooohhh, right."

Well, you know what they say about blind girls and their magical resistance levels.

Originally Posted by Golden Dream

This is really random, but does anyone else think that maybe


Or perhaps Kumasawa is Kinzo's real wife?

I don't know... these three characters always seemed really ambiguous to me. I know Kumasawa already has a son, but who knows, maybe Kumasawa left Kinzo for the longest time (It says in her tips she often resignes in the middle of her job)... Also, she already has a Virgilia-Beatrice form. (Most likely given by Yasu though. ) Maybe Beatrice 1 grew too old for Kinzo, and now she's back for the lol money.

Yes, I know this is all irrelevant.

Dude, this is another thing that grinds my gears a little. In response, I think it's pretty ... ... beyond impossible for Kumasawa to be anyone other than who she claims to be (unless you wanna theorize that she faked her own death, and either the four sibling didn't recognize their own mother, or Kinzo's love was alot more cavalier than he was letting on. Though there was a time I thought she might've had an affair with Kinzo, there's nothing to support that, so I dropped it.

Though I do feel really bad that Kinzo's wife is pretty non-existant in the narrative, even in the few places she should definately be around. Seriously, in Natsuhi's EP5 flashbacks I was expecting Kinzo's wife, if only by text, EVENTUALLY, but alas, no. Hell, at least Asumu got a name.