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Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 11:17

Spoiler:

It's not that...

It's just that...when you think of Misogi's speech in chapter 88, that grand speech...you want an actually satisfactory conclusion to it...

And when you get this "win"...well...

I think you can understand where one would be coming from

Though, I suppose you're right about Hanten. Really strange.

Homura7 · 2013-03-05, 11:28

Spoiler for spoiler:

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-03-05, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

It's not that...

It's just that...when you think of Misogi's speech in chapter 88, that grand speech...you want an actually satisfactory conclusion to it...

And when you get this "win"...well...

I think you can understand where one would be coming from

Though, I suppose you're right about Hanten. Really strange.

TBF it's not like this development prevents Kumagawa from doing those things. It simply means the universe is no longer screwng him over so he's not the underdog anymore. Ruins this specific moment, but doesn't prevent kumagawa from doing important things later on.

Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 11:29

Spoiler for Kurusu-Shirudo:

Can't lie, thought Misogi was above it.

But no. He's a true wild-card, this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchi

TBF it's not like this development prevents Kumagawa from doing those things. It simply means the universe is no longer screwng him over so he's not the underdog anymore. Ruins this specific moment, but doesn't prevent kumagawa from doing important things later on.

Dude, I loved Misogi because of that speech and the hype of him winning!

Ending it like this makes all his conflict feel kinda...childish, for lack of a better word. All he had to do was that?

Regardless, it's not like he isn't fun even when he's softened. It's just dissapointing, that's all.

Guernsey · 2013-03-05, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Spoiler for Kurusu-Shirudo:

Oh well......I wonder what Nishio is planning? This series is completely of the wall, we might have a villain that makes Iihiko look like chump by comparison and Medaka basically out trolled God. I wonder if Nishio is poking fun at the escalating power levels trope what with the main character usually becoming the most op thing since sliced bread

Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Oh well......I wonder what Nishio is planning? This series is completely of the wall, we might have a villain that makes Iihiko look like chump by comparison and Medaka basically out trolled God. I wonder if Nishio is poking fun at the escalating power levels trope what with the main character usually becoming the most op thing since sliced bread

Best not to jinx it. Not every plot needs to threaten "The World" after all.

lordkas · 2013-03-05, 12:25

so this wont be over let the trolling adventure continue and I hope kumagawa wont get a flanderization in his personality

Sol Falling · 2013-03-05, 13:29

DawnEmperor made a good point a while earlier about what it would actually mean for Kumagawa to "win". As in, what exactly did he want to win at? As has been pointed out fairly often, Kumagawa wins fights all the time. He also has friends, is trusted and supported by people, gets to act cool and show off while trolling enemies, gets to generally enjoy life, everything. On a shallow/surface level, there has been nothing wrong with Kumagawa's life ever since he got converted by Medaka. What exactly has been stopping him all this time from considering himself a winner?

Think back to the Treasure Hunt arc where after the Beautification Committee head crushed Kumagawa's spirit the characters talked about how it seemed like, despite his superficial happiness, Kumagawa was actually "drowning beneath the surface". Despite Kumagawa's apparent general level of happiness, deep inside him he was somehow still harbouring the pain of a true Minus -- the knowledge and despair of knowing he would never achieve what he truly wanted -- never win.

As Ajimu explained through Zenkichi during the True Flask Plan arc, a true victory is only one which feels like one. The thing which determines whether you're a winner or a loser is how satisfied you ultimately feel with the outcome. The reason Kumagawa has remained a Minus up to now is simple: all of those little victories he's gathered, all of the momentary fun, admiration of friends, brief moments of happiness, etc., don't actually mean anything to him, ultimately, deep in his heart. Those moments when he saves others, and then receives gratitude from them, or becomes a trusted/relied-upon member of a circle (i.e. Naked-Apron senpai), are cheap. In the end he is just doing things and being happy for others. Just doing what is "right", and pretending he is satisfied. Fulfilling his role as now a member of the 'good guys', acting as a guardian of the weak, sacrificing himself for others out of empathy, and pretending that he has been truly reformed enough that he can just get along with other people, for the sake of the general good.

Kumagawa's victories, and happiness up to now, has never had anything to do with what he truly, personally wanted, for himself. He has only helped other people out of empathy. The actual question to ask has always been what it would take to actually make Kumagawa, at the most fundamental level, happy himself.

And so y'know, just "beating" Medaka (or anyone) in a fight or a contest could've never been the point. Because in the end, that's just a one time thing. It something which Medaka's enemies, as they get stronger, can or will do over and over again. It's a short-term resolution which, if it represented the end of Kumagawa's story, would truly simply relegate him to a mere side-character who could just be forgotten in the end.

What can be called a victory is only something which Kumagawa himself, personally, truly wants. And it can only be called a victory if he has had to work for it--struggling against impossible odds, put his life and soul on the line for it. It can only be called a victory if he has done something meaningful--proven something which others had doubted, shown something which people would never have imagined.

For Kumagawa, there can be no greater victory than to have actually won over the heart of Medaka. The Medaka who loved every human equally, and who has been tied to Zenkichi since the age of 2. Most importantly, the Medaka who has been the main character of this story. More than the temporary victory of a battle, making Medaka bind herself to him would be the victory of a lifetime. It would be a complete reversal over his fate as a Minus, the "greatest failure that ever lived".

The "victory" Kumagawa achieved in the spoiler is important because it shows he understands Medaka. It also shows she understands him. However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka. It's not the sort of victory which could ever be enough to erase Kumagawa's stigma as a Minus by itself. Kumagawa's journey/story is still continuing. He has not achieved enough to call it the end.

zigantz22 · 2013-03-05, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

For Kumagawa, there can be no greater victory than to have actually won over the heart of Medaka. The Medaka who loved every human equally, and who has been tied to Zenkichi since the age of 2. Most importantly, the Medaka who has been the main character of this story. More than the temporary victory of a battle, making Medaka bind herself to him would be the victory of a lifetime. It would be a complete reversal over his fate as a Minus, the "greatest failure that ever lived".

The "victory" Kumagawa achieved in the spoiler is important because it shows he understands Medaka. It also shows she understands him. However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka. It's not the sort of victory which could ever be enough to erase Kumagawa's stigma as a Minus by itself. Kumagawa's journey/story is still continuing. He has not achieved enough to call it the end.

I don't know if you're implying he's already won over her heart with these latest chapters or will in the future, but if it's the former, then that is ridiculous; he has not won over her heart, his victory was her returning alive, and I see no point to continue this artificial narrative by creating emotions that simply don't exist between them. Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character, and it's something he would never be successful in anyways. I don't think Kumagawa's naive enough to actually expect to win over her heart, and I don't expect him to continue his search for a "victory", since he seems quite satisfied with this one.

RedKey · 2013-03-05, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka.

That would be quite difficult, as if the spoilers are true, Medaka calls him 'Misogi onii-chan'. Second time he gets brotherzoned.

Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zigantz22

Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character.

You said it.

Heck, Nishio managed to save Zenkichi from this by making his ultimate victory be him starting to live his own life(well, him and the entire school, as that speech was obviously an analogy of fate/humans and Medaka/Students of Hakoniwa - "We don't need the suggestion box" to "We don't need fate anymore") and disproving Medaka's ridiculous ideology(that he himself had imposed).

Why the fuck did he do this to Misogi?

Where is the man who stole my heart, Nishio?

Spoiler:

Homura7 · 2013-03-05, 14:02

Spoiler for spoiler:

Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 14:05

You know, this chapter even sounds kinda ok. Sure, Medaka coming back is dissapointing, but nothing to be surprised about.

If not for those three words.

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-03-05, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo

Spoiler for spoiler:

I don't think it really matters if Kumagawa stays the same or changes wasn't really expecting him to change anyway, Medaka didn't change even in spite of all the character development she went through. The obvious issue is this is the climax to the longest and hyped character arc for him, and it blows so very badly. Like wolfstein said Zenkichi's most hyped character arc he may not have beaten her in a fight, but he managed to take the most visible position she had and altered the flawed way of thinking she had, ultimately he became the man that he feared would appear the man that defeated her. All this was earned through hard work and even then I thought he got short changed in the arc proceeding.

In comparison Kumagawa didn't achieve shit, he made a bet on the winning horse (a horse that almost always wins). Dude got screwed over majorly it's still extremely iffy if he even earned Medaka's love due to the brotherzoning and fact she's still engaged. Should he win Medaka's heart anyway it would not be personally a good resolution for him.

Wolfenstein · 2013-03-05, 14:24

A better way of this turning out:

Misogi: Omg! You took my second button!

Medaka: I sure did!

Misogi: ...

Medaka: ...

Misogi: So are we going to have sex now?

Medaka: Nope!

Misogi: Ahhh! Once again, I couldn't win!

Sure, still sucks, but at least nothing's ruined.

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-03-05, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

A better way of this turning out:

Misogi: Omg! You took my second button!

Medaka: I sure did!

Misogi: ...

Medaka: ...

Misogi: So are we going to have sex now?

Medaka: Nope!

Misogi: Ahhh! Once again, I couldn't win!

Sure, still sucks, but at least nothing's ruined.

Don't you see this was his graduation Nisio had to do something!

Sol Falling · 2013-03-05, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by zigantz22

I don't know if you're implying he's already won over her heart with these latest chapters or will in the future, but if it's the former, then that is ridiculous; he has not won over her heart, his victory was her returning alive, and I see no point to continue this artificial narrative by creating emotions that simply don't exist between them. Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character, and it's something he would never be successful in anyways. I don't think Kumagawa's naive enough to actually expect to win over her heart, and I don't expect him to continue his search for a "victory", since he seems quite satisfied with this one.

lol, get some reading comprehension then. I said that Kumagawa's story is not over. Also, Kumagawa wanting Medaka to fall for him romantically does nothing to diminish him as a character because ultimately Kumagawa's motivation is about supplanting the main characters, about beating them and placing them below him in the story.

Unlike Zenkichi, who held back on telling Medaka that her purpose is to be his girlfriend and instead did the honourable thing of letting her pursue her own purpose, Kumagawa would have no compunctions following his self-interests telling Medaka to bind herself to him or change however he wants. (Of course, part of that would be trolling. However, it's precisely the fact that he's a troll/Minus which would give him the freedom to act that way.) Kumagawa winning over Medaka would elevate him to an equal level with her in terms of main character status, rather than degrade him.

As for "naivete" or being satisfied with his current victories, that is precisely what the whole point of overcoming his Minus is about. Ajimu told Kumagawa "wanting to win is the same thing as being able to win", that was her encouragement to him. Do you think there's any meaning to that if Kumagawa then decided "nope, that's too difficult, I give up/it's impossible" about one of the only things he actually wants as a character? The fact that Kumagawa hasn't given up is precisely the reason for a whole bunch of his past 'antagonistic' behaviour, liking trolling Zenkichi just before the election in the True Flask Plan arc, asking the Medaka do Naked Apron for him for his reward at the start of the JBW arc, declaring that he would defeat Medaka before his graduation at the start of the Shiranui arc, or his latest act of BookMaker-ing Zenkichi to send Medaka off in the last chapter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKey

That would be quite difficult, as if the spoilers are true, Medaka calls him 'Misogi onii-chan'. Second time he gets brotherzoned.

It's precisely because it would be difficult that the story is set up for it. Kumagawa has already had a shitton of victories, why haven't any of them actually counted for him? Because none of them had anything to do with what he wants a real victory over. The fact that Kumagawa still believes the things he wants are impossible is what has maintained his Minus status. On the other hand, Ajimu performed her one and only 'biased action' to encourage Kumagawa that the things he wants are the things which are truly possible.

The Kumagawa before reformation was someone who hurt others. The Kumagawa after reformation became someone who protects and challenges others. However, the Kumagawa at the end of his story, the one who has truly overcome the curse of his Minus, is someone who has learned to be selfish, to pursue and grasp his own personal victories.

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-03-05, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, get some reading comprehension then. I said that Kumagawa's story is not over. Also, Kumagawa wanting Medaka to fall for him romantically does nothing to diminish him as a character because ultimately Kumagawa's motivation is about supplanting the main characters, about beating them and placing them below him in the story.

Unlike Zenkichi, who held back on telling Medaka that her purpose is to be his girlfriend and instead did the honourable thing of letting her pursue her own purpose, Kumagawa would have no compunctions following his self-interests telling Medaka to bind herself to him or change however he wants. (Of course, part of that would be trolling. However, it's precisely the fact that he's a troll/Minus which would give him the freedom to act that way.) Kumagawa winning over Medaka would elevate him to an equal level with her in terms of main character status, rather than degrade him.

As for "naivete" or being satisfied with his current victories, that is precisely what the whole point of overcoming his Minus is about. Ajimu told Kumagawa "wanting to win is the same thing as being able to win", that was her encouragement to him. Do you think there's any meaning to that if Kumagawa then decided "nope, that's too difficult, I give up/it's impossible" about one of the only things he actually wants as a character? The fact that Kumagawa hasn't given up is precisely the reason for a whole bunch of his past 'antagonistic' behaviour, liking trolling Zenkichi just before the election in the True Flask Plan arc, asking the Medaka do Naked Apron for him for his reward at the start of the JBW arc, declaring that he would defeat Medaka before his graduation at the start of the Shiranui arc, or his latest act of BookMaker-ing Zenkichi to send Medaka off in the last chapter.

It's precisely because it would be difficult that the story is set up for it. Kumagawa has already had a shitton of victories, why haven't any of them actually counted for him? Because none of them had anything to do with what he wants a real victory over. The fact that Kumagawa still believes the things he wants are impossible is what has maintained his Minus status. On the other hand, Ajimu performed her one and only 'biased action' to encourage Kumagawa that the things he wants are the things which are truly possible.

The Kumagawa before reformation was someone who hurt others. The Kumagawa after reformation became someone who protects and challenges others. However, the Kumagawa at the end of his story, the one who has truly overcome the curse of his Minus, is someone who has learned to be selfish, to pursue and grasp his own personal victories.

TBF I think the dudes issue is that Kumagawa's completely lost his schtic and what he gained for it was pretty damn poor. Kumagawa is no longer a "loser" he is no longer an underdog the universe no longer screws him over. That means there's nothing particularily special or unique about Kumagawa winning anymore (this is all igoring personality), the dude is overpowered as fuck he's supposed to win there's nothing to be gained or achieved through Kumagawa beating anyone in this manga bar Aijimu and Medaka because he's that overpowered.

The single thing, that kept him as an underdog in comparison to the rest of the characters in this manga was that the universe (or himself) was screwing him over preventing him from actually winning. Now that he's lost that he's not much different from Medaka and Aijimu in overall overpoweredness. This is fine but what he gained in comparison to that I can't see as anything less than a blow. Since the moment he surpasses his fate would generally be his greatest achievement, before he becomes an average joe. In his greatest achievement he didn't achieve anything and simply bet on the foregone conclusion.

It's great your happy this finale was used for the potential of shipping, but I can honestly see the majority of his fans (especially those that aren't also Medaka fans) being quite annoyed with this development.

Lupus753 · 2013-03-05, 17:12

Spoiler for next chapter:

KLGChaos · 2013-03-05, 17:30

Nishio is definitely an author you either love or hate. As another person posted on myanimelist:

"A man who made a career out of writing cringingly bad and rambling dialogue and having a pretty good artist to be paired up with for his novels and manga. Knows how to write unique and distinctive fan service scenes and that's about it, other than that his stories have no flow or internal logic and his characters are all loathsome and irritating in the extreme.

His talent in writing smut could be put to legitimately good use in writing scenes for eroge though."

That pretty much sums up what I feel about Nishio, though I don't find all his dialogue cringe-worthy. Some of the banter is quite good. His stories really do lack any flow or real internal logic, though, which is a big turn off for me. :P Some may find it to be genius, I just find it annoying.

I'd say this past arc pretty much takes that to a whole new level.

2013-03-05, 11:28	Link #12622
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Spoiler for spoiler: This shall serve as an advice to every one of us. Chapters like this show Nisio is fully conscious many won't like these developments, but at the same time doesn't care, as he is sure of what he's doing.

2013-03-05, 14:02	Link #12632
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Spoiler for spoiler: People also worried Kumagawa wouldn't stay the same when he joined the Student Council. The next chapter they caught him assaulting Hitomi.

2013-03-05, 14:05	Link #12633
Wolfenstein Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	You know, this chapter even sounds kinda ok. Sure, Medaka coming back is dissapointing, but nothing to be surprised about. If not for those three words. __________________

2013-03-05, 14:24	Link #12635
Wolfenstein Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	A better way of this turning out: Misogi: Omg! You took my second button! Medaka: I sure did! Misogi: ... Medaka: ... Misogi: So are we going to have sex now? Medaka: Nope! Misogi: Ahhh! Once again, I couldn't win! Sure, still sucks, but at least nothing's ruined. __________________

2013-03-05, 17:12	Link #12639
Lupus753 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Spoiler for next chapter: Throughout this manga, I have never made heads or tails of whatever Kumagawa counts as a "victory". It sounds like this chapter will only make things even more confusing. If Kumagawa winning will shove him to be an unimportant side-character, for me, that would be killing two birds with one stone.

2013-03-05, 12:25	Link #12627
lordkas Member Join Date: Aug 2011	so this wont be over let the trolling adventure continue and I hope kumagawa wont get a flanderization in his personality

2013-03-05, 13:29	Link #12628
Sol Falling Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Age: 35	DawnEmperor made a good point a while earlier about what it would actually mean for Kumagawa to "win". As in, what exactly did he want to win at? As has been pointed out fairly often, Kumagawa wins fights all the time. He also has friends, is trusted and supported by people, gets to act cool and show off while trolling enemies, gets to generally enjoy life, everything. On a shallow/surface level, there has been nothing wrong with Kumagawa's life ever since he got converted by Medaka. What exactly has been stopping him all this time from considering himself a winner? Think back to the Treasure Hunt arc where after the Beautification Committee head crushed Kumagawa's spirit the characters talked about how it seemed like, despite his superficial happiness, Kumagawa was actually "drowning beneath the surface". Despite Kumagawa's apparent general level of happiness, deep inside him he was somehow still harbouring the pain of a true Minus -- the knowledge and despair of knowing he would never achieve what he truly wanted -- never win. As Ajimu explained through Zenkichi during the True Flask Plan arc, a true victory is only one which feels like one. The thing which determines whether you're a winner or a loser is how satisfied you ultimately feel with the outcome. The reason Kumagawa has remained a Minus up to now is simple: all of those little victories he's gathered, all of the momentary fun, admiration of friends, brief moments of happiness, etc., don't actually mean anything to him, ultimately, deep in his heart. Those moments when he saves others, and then receives gratitude from them, or becomes a trusted/relied-upon member of a circle (i.e. Naked-Apron senpai), are cheap. In the end he is just doing things and being happy for others. Just doing what is "right", and pretending he is satisfied. Fulfilling his role as now a member of the 'good guys', acting as a guardian of the weak, sacrificing himself for others out of empathy, and pretending that he has been truly reformed enough that he can just get along with other people, for the sake of the general good. Kumagawa's victories, and happiness up to now, has never had anything to do with what he truly, personally wanted, for himself. He has only helped other people out of empathy. The actual question to ask has always been what it would take to actually make Kumagawa, at the most fundamental level, happy himself. And so y'know, just "beating" Medaka (or anyone) in a fight or a contest could've never been the point. Because in the end, that's just a one time thing. It something which Medaka's enemies, as they get stronger, can or will do over and over again. It's a short-term resolution which, if it represented the end of Kumagawa's story, would truly simply relegate him to a mere side-character who could just be forgotten in the end. What can be called a victory is only something which Kumagawa himself, personally, truly wants. And it can only be called a victory if he has had to work for it--struggling against impossible odds, put his life and soul on the line for it. It can only be called a victory if he has done something meaningful--proven something which others had doubted, shown something which people would never have imagined. For Kumagawa, there can be no greater victory than to have actually won over the heart of Medaka. The Medaka who loved every human equally, and who has been tied to Zenkichi since the age of 2. Most importantly, the Medaka who has been the main character of this story. More than the temporary victory of a battle, making Medaka bind herself to him would be the victory of a lifetime. It would be a complete reversal over his fate as a Minus, the "greatest failure that ever lived". The "victory" Kumagawa achieved in the spoiler is important because it shows he understands Medaka. It also shows she understands him. However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka. It's not the sort of victory which could ever be enough to erase Kumagawa's stigma as a Minus by itself. Kumagawa's journey/story is still continuing. He has not achieved enough to call it the end.

2013-03-05, 17:30	Link #12640
KLGChaos The Shermain Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NY Age: 44	Nishio is definitely an author you either love or hate. As another person posted on myanimelist: "A man who made a career out of writing cringingly bad and rambling dialogue and having a pretty good artist to be paired up with for his novels and manga. Knows how to write unique and distinctive fan service scenes and that's about it, other than that his stories have no flow or internal logic and his characters are all loathsome and irritating in the extreme. His talent in writing smut could be put to legitimately good use in writing scenes for eroge though." That pretty much sums up what I feel about Nishio, though I don't find all his dialogue cringe-worthy. Some of the banter is quite good. His stories really do lack any flow or real internal logic, though, which is a big turn off for me. :P Some may find it to be genius, I just find it annoying. I'd say this past arc pretty much takes that to a whole new level. __________________