(CR) Holmes at Kyoto Teramachi Sanjō

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

If you mean people leaving someone to be with someone else, then yeah it does. What I meant by complexity was how the whole situation was painted with a very shallow brush. The notion that leaving someone to be with or find someone else who gives you what you want is bad. People have all kinds of needs and wants, and someone deciding that the person they're with just isn't giving them what they want and would rather find someone who does isn't a bad thing in itself in my opinion.

That's why I liked Holmes' take before last ep. She left him for her future husband, so it just means she broke a relationship that wasn't meant to be to enter one that was.

And now we learn that the reason she and her husband are "better" together is that they're both horrible people.

[SilverGlavenus]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

While it certainly is better than cheating, it's still pretty low IMHO to dump someone and immediately pick up with someone else. It somehow feels insulting, like declaring that the former love meant nothing at all. Like you just got tired of them and traded them in for a new model.

True that, Izumi certainly chse her future husband because he offered her something that Holmes did not have at the time. I've seen in real life how people easily ditch their long time boyfriends/girlfriends just to get with someone who can satisfy some of their immediate needs, without actually getting to know each other. In this case, Izumi made a rash decision and she obviously came to regret it.

I know he said nothing about marriage. What he said certainly made it sound like he had a specific timeframe for a temporary chastity, as I suggested perhaps until things had gotten settled (like maybe after they'd gotten used to their classes and college life), and she wasn't able to wait that long. Though it sounds like this is largely his excuse, as he seems to just state it as his opinion, while what we do know is they went to college and an arrogant, shallow bastard started hitting on her, and she almost immediately fell for him.

It may be his excuse, but from what he said, we could also see that his ex-girlfriend dumped him pretty quickly and without both sides talking things out. Holmes is probably born and raised in a family that values traditions. I can understand why he wants to preserve the chastity of his partner. Imho, that is probably best for both sides, despite how hard it can be, since it prevents potential future problems.

But enough talk about the past, what truely establishes Izumi as a horrible character is the fact that she tried to get back to Holmes. She looked for the easy way out when things did not go her way, instead of trying to confront the problem. Her actions also made it feel like she sees Holmes as an easy option, as a convenience, not as someone who is worthy of respect and consideration.

[Ghostfriendly]

Ep4 really hit the spot, creating convincingly difficult situations the protagonists handled is a very respectable and human way. Good mysteries would be nice, but just like Gosick, the human drama is more reliable.

[LKK]

That was a surprisingly touching episode. Holmes, who recently said that he had given up women for now, seems to have realized that Aoi is his perfect match. Aoi isn't quite at the same realization level, but if fate (with the help of naughty older Kyoto men) has its way, she'll be there soon. I was a little choked up by the end.

Or maybe I'm just in an emotional mood this afternoon.

[orion]

Originally Posted by LKK

That was a surprisingly touching episode. Holmes, who recently said that he had given up women for now, seems to have realized that Aoi is his perfect match. Aoi isn't quite at the same realization level, but if fate (with the help of naughty older Kyoto men) has its way, she'll be there soon. I was a little choked up by the end.

Or maybe I'm just in an emotional mood this afternoon.

Well...maybe there will be an episode at the inn where she won the tickets.

He was on his way to confession this episode.

[SeijiSensei]

I can't wait for the scene where they discuss who should use the tickets. Is it okay for a college student and a high school student to go away together? Would they have separate rooms?

Best episode so far for me. Aoi has had the advantage of a knowledgeable and smart teacher. All those little sessions in the gallery paid off. I haven't entirely bought into the Holmes/Moria rivalry though. I need to rewatch the earlier episode about him. Like Aoi, I didn't entirely understand Holmes's reaction.

I liked how

Spoiler:

they made you think Aoi was going to call the last item real by her voice-over, then she raised the red flag.

I'm really tired of the head-patting meme.

[SeijiSensei]

No appraising in this episode, just romance and "drama" as Holmes

Spoiler:

solves a case for his ex.

What happened to the trip? Aoi won the tickets, right? Didn't she also happen to get three, so they can bring Rikkyu along, too? Won't that be fun! I think she should invite Kaori. I don't think she would try to steal Holmes away from Aoi. If anything, I expect Kaori would be cheering Aoi on from the sidelines.

It's fine to have an episode or two scattered around that just focuses on the characters, though I'd still prefer episodes where they at least talk focus on the works of art. Overall, my opinion of this show has improved over the past few episodes.

[Anh_Minh]

Things are going pretty fast for Holmes' ex. In, what, two months, she broke up with the flashy guy, and found herself with a new fiance?

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Things are going pretty fast for Holmes' ex. In, what, two months, she broke up with the flashy guy, and found herself with a new fiance?

That girl was really Holmes' ex? I assumed she was a new character as it did seem too unlikely she had a new fiance already.

Aoi seemed to be angry with the new fiance because she assumed he was lying to both the women involved, and presumably giving his ex the impression he still cared about her. She had no evidence of this except the statements of the ex, who has every motive to cause trouble by lying. More importantly it seems ludicrous that his ex could have recieved his impression when he had given her money to get out of his life, but I think a sufficiently smooth talker could have spun the 'settlement' as something other than a begone bribe rather than recieving the sane reaction of getting it thrown in his face along with the fireirons.

That Aoi and Holmes assumed the bribe was paid and accepted, however, implies that they do not regard the paying off of ex-girlfriends in itself as outrageously degrading to women.

They're also making an assumption about the solution, when the fiance could have gone to his ex and broken things off harshly with the payment, so she lied about him hugging her to get revenge. Or the ex could have blackmailed the fiance to not ruin his reception, or the fiance could have told his ex he still loved her, but never given her money, and only taken out the cash as a ruse, so he could lie about actually going to pay his ex off, when his first very transparent alibi fell through.

It was true that the man was also a toerag for not being honest with his fiance, but compared to offering money to a woman in such circumstances...I actually quite enjoyed the episode for the relationship drama despite the miserable characters and assumptions.

[Guardian Enzo]

I believe he offered her money because she threatened him first. That was certainly what Holmes implied.

[Anh_Minh]

Holmes' grandpa looks pretty horrible there. Around the time their kid is born, he decided he didn't want to deal with his wife's less than ideal health and divorced her. How do they still get along?

[Guardian Enzo]

That wasn't the full story at all. He left because he believed he was cursing her and causing her illness. Yeah, it was probably dumb of him to believe that because a shaman told him so, but hit motives were a little different than you're making them out to be.

[Anh_Minh]

Allegedly.

Plus if he's going to nonsense, he could at least get a second opinion. Nonsense peddlers aren't rare.

[Guardian Enzo]

You're projecting IMO... Not that such suspicions would be totally unreasonable, but I didn't get any sense that the narrative was suggesting that.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Allegedly.

Plus if he's going to nonsense, he could at least get a second opinion. Nonsense peddlers aren't rare.

You're seriously going without basis here. Yes in the real world if a man divorces his wife right after she gives birth and suffers from worsening health problems, it would only be natural to assume he didn't want to deal with a sick wife and a kid. But after fifty whole years it's still indicated that no one in this story believes that and we're seriously not given reason to doubt it. It may be impossible to prove that the author never considered this as a possible hidden motive, but again everything within points to his intentions being "kind", including his offering a valuable antique doll to remember him by while keeping its pair to remember her and his decision to never remarry.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

You're projecting IMO...

How so?

I'm looking at the facts. That he divorced her when she was in poor health and their kid was still very young? Those are facts. That he did it because he believed some shaman? That's an unverifiable excuse, and hearsay from his grandson, born decades after the events to boot.

Do I seriously think that's what happened? No. But still, it looks bad.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

How so?

I'm looking at the facts. That he divorced her when she was in poor health and their kid was still very young? Those are facts. That he did it because he believed some shaman? That's an unverifiable excuse, and hearsay from his grandson, born decades after the events to boot.

Do I seriously think that's what happened? No. But still, it looks bad.

Isn't it a bit of a cheap cop-out to dismiss anything that contradicts your narrative? Especially when it's made fairly clear that he did still love her, even gave her an antique to remember him by while keeping its pair. There's absolutely no sign of any kind of ill will between the two. Again, yes in real life one would wonder, but still it feels awfully contrarian to simply declare that a guy who's been known for his superior insight to this point is being deceived simply to eliminate something that contradicts your narrative.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Isn't it a bit of a cheap cop-out to dismiss anything that contradicts your narrative? Especially when it's made fairly clear that he did still love her, even gave her an antique to remember him by while keeping its pair.

While putting its pair for sale in his shop. I don't actually begrudge him that, it's been more than fifty years after all. Past time to move on. But I'm not that impressed with the gift either. I don't see it as some incredible, undeniable proof of love.

There's absolutely no sign of any kind of ill will between the two.

Which is the only reason I don't actually think my explanation is right, just that the facts look bad. It's like seeing someone with a bloodstained knife standing over a freshly stabbed corpse. Maybe the guy didn't do it, maybe those who know him will tell you he'd never do something like that - but it still looks bad. It's even worse in some ways because it's not a whodunnit. We know who, what and when. It's the why that's in question.

Though I'll point out, even if the curse explanation is 100% honest, it doesn't look much better. How did he even explain it to his wife? "Some shaman told me I'm cursed, pack your bags."? How hard did he fight to stay with her?

Again, yes in real life one would wonder, but still it feels awfully contrarian to simply declare that a guy who's been known for his superior insight to this point is being deceived simply to eliminate something that contradicts your narrative.

I'm not dismissing it. I'm qualifying it. What does he know, and how does he know what he knows?

[orion]

Maybe times were different in 1960's Japan and people actually believed that kind of stuff. That's the way it's been portrayed. She even married a good/rich man and is well off now. No anger on both sides so the split was amicable.

But you do have to wonder who raised Holmes's dad? Did Grandad raise his own boy and his ex-wife was the only one that left?

[Frontier]

Aoi really did look spectacular in that Yukata. It almost looked too fancy for it to be something she owned, but she still wore it well .

It's seeming more and more like Holmes has realized his feelings for Aoi given the way he's acting around her and that he keeps going out of his way to take her out on what are basically dates. Even his grandfather's realized what's going on, which Holmes acknowledged. It seems like Aoi's the one who's still a little dense, but that's probably because she still thinks Holmes viewing her romantically is a dream rather then reality.

"A shaman said my bad karma is causing your ill health, so let's get divorced." I don't think I've ever heard that one before .

I don't really ascribe any real malice in what Owner did to Holmes' grandmother, although in light of the fact that he ended up moving on to a younger woman...though said woman also is coming from a previous failed marriage, and there's that old adage about "Bird's of a Feather." Maybe Kiritsugu just wanted to be with Iri again .

All this makes me wonder about the status of Kiyotaka's mother, although considering that a lot of other relationships in this show have involved breakups, cheating, and divorce, I'd kind of be surprised if she's still with Holmes' dad (assuming she is alive).

I wonder if it's a coincidence that a younger grandma looked kind of like Izumi (at least to me) in that one flashback?

So Holmes' grandmother re-married and started a new family. Her next kid would have been Holmes' dad's half-sibling, but is her granddaughter like Holmes' cousin on his grandmother's side or something?