[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I am also not sure it's fair to say she felt no guilt. In fact, suicide might be a sign of just how guilty she felt, if she were truly an emotionless psycho then why would she feel the need to kill herself? She could have easily escaped consequences other ways. I would agree that it could be seen as a cowardly way to avoid guilt and many would say it is better to try and atone. But many people believe that if they have committed a sin so disgusting they cannot repay it they should kill themselves to make up for it (and maybe also avoid the fallout too), at least for a long enough period to try.

Well, I'm just saying, dead people can't feel guilt. Because they're dead. Guilt may indeed drive a person to suicide, but the suicide for the guilt of a serious crime means you're burdened by an act you rightfully did wrong and you don't want that burden anymore (to say nothing of the potential consequences of your action such as prison, public scorn, etc.). Not wanting the burden is an act of dodging consequences that you do, in fact, deserve to face for your actions.

Attempting to justify one's actions as irredeemable is, again, just a dodge. It's not unreasonable to think it, sure, but it is still cowardly to not even try (and probably more than a little bit selfish). That would apply even if instead of dying she just fled and lived a life of seclusion. But at least a hermit would have to deal with the guilt every day.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

And they are wrong. Why should I care what their culture thinks? It is cowardly to intentionally end one's own existence rather than accept consequence for one's own actions. Death imposed upon oneself is not consequence, and never will be.

I think you are not quite understanding that to judge whether someone did something out of cowardice or not you need to understand that person belief, whether it is a wrong or right belief. Just because someone "is wrong" it doesn't mean he cannot seriously believe in that.

It's as if you said that anyone that decides to fight a lion barehanded to save other people must be a brave man because it is a fact that a man cannot hope to defeat a lion barehanded. But what if someone does that because he's ignorant or stupid enough to actually believe he can win?

The same way if one believes that suicide is an act of courage such as Werther in "The Sorrows of Young Werther", you can say that he's wrong, but you cannot say that he is a coward, unless you're implying that he's in denial. But what if he isn't?

Originally Posted by Renall

That's nonsense. The very same logic is what justifies a lunatic committing murder because they believe everything will be okay and that is clearly wrong, isn't it?

Come on now, when did I try to justify anyone? We're talking about understanding here, not approval or justification.

I can understand someone without approving, and I'm arguing that you should try to do the same. At least I'm under the assumption that you want to understand this story and to do that you need to understand Yasu and what the author is trying to tell us, whether you approve it or not.
I'm not approving it any more than you do, you know.

In the case of a man doing evil while under the assumption he's doing something good, there is a word for that: "misguided".
It doesn't mean they are doing something right just because they believe it is, though some argue that they're less morally questionable than people that do evil while being conscious of doing evil.

Originally Posted by Renall

She never had any opportunity to be sorry, because she died. She intentionally did so to avoid having to be sorry. Once dead, she is no longer capable of remorse.

You're usually very cautious about statements regarding Umineko, like when you specified (if she actually killed herself). I therefore wonder where do you get this certainty about the reason Yasu killed herself, even though there's really little about that.

Originally Posted by Renall

You haven't paid attention to (or have forgotten) some discussions of justice that we have had in the past. Execution is an act of retributive justice, which is both the oldest and most morally questionable form. It isn't punitive (because you can't learn anything from a punishment that kills you) and it isn't rehabilitative (same idea). It's little more than sanctioned vengeance to satisfy a desire to see something bad happen to someone who has done bad things.

It can't ever be truly retributive anyway since, again, one life doesn't trade for a dozen, and you can't very well execute a person twelve times and call it square. There is little purpose to retributive justice outside of financial restitution. If you really want to extract retribution for society for the lives taken by a mass murderer, perhaps she should be put to work saving and restoring lives.

But that would be difficult, so it's easier for society and cowardly criminals to believe trading their lives is sufficient to make up for the wrong.

And I agree with that, and that's the reason many countries in the world banned death penalties. But what exactly are you trying to do here?

I'm not arguing that suicide is a way to atone for mass muder, I'm arguing that there's a whole deal of people that believe it is. And this is a point I can hardly see how it can be debated.

I think it's hinted well enough in EP8 that Beatrice believed that killing herself was an inevitable step for her after becoming a mass murderer, because she didn't think she had any right to live after that.

Was she wrong? Yes, I can agree with that, bu that's not the point.

She did what she believed it was the right thing to atone. Doesn't that mean she was sorry, even if she used the wrong way to demonstrate it?

In the first place how can someone kill himself in order to avoid feeling sorry and remorseful if he wasn't sorry and remorseful to begin with? One that truly isn't can't possibly think he will be.

[Wanderer]

Planning to commit suicide to make up for a sin you have yet to commit really doesn't make sense. Just don't sin in the first place.

[Asuka0NK]

I doubt Yasu was going to commit suicide till after the crime and she realized how horrible she was. I mean she may have murdered everyone important to her and she didn't realize everything till it was over and she couldn't leave alive. In fact she may have not commited suicide she may have exploded with the island.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Planning to commit suicide to make up for a sin you have yet to commit really doesn't make sense. Just don't sin in the first place.

It does, if the person that does it is under the mindset of "It's a horrible thing but there's no other choice". Of course we're talking about a crazy girl here, but just because she's crazy it doesn't mean that she doesn't have feelings, quite the opposite, I'd say.

The situation of a killer that feels sorry about killing someone while killing him is one of the example that Ryuukishi himself made in the commentary that I posted a few pages before.
It can't be denied that Ryuukishi thinks it's possible, at the very least.

Spoiler for Ookamikakushi:

Nemuru is a good example of this. She needs to kill the "fallen" as part of her duty. She doesn't really want to do it and she feel sorry for them, but she has to do it.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Hey! Hey! Hey Guys! What happened to Ikuko = Yasu Theory? EP8's...strange... tea party involving Battler and Beatrice escaping the island.

[Asuka0NK]

Well I for one don't really believe in the Yasu = Ikuko Theory because it is just too convenient and it seems Yasu would've had to plan it all out herself. I mean Yasu escapes the island and Battler is supposedly dead and she just happens to find him passed out on the roadside.

Also Ikuko doesn't really act like someone who had finally found the person they thought was dead and just treat it like its normal. In fact the only thing to me that could imply the theory is true is the fact that Ikuko didn't take him to a hospital because this could imply she couldn't because she is hiding.

So pretty much I think the theory is far-fetched and just too implausible because I think Yasu would've tried to help Battler remember who he used to be.

And on the Tea Party. I think it is a glimpse into Prime and how Battler ended up with amnesia. I believe the events of it take place after Beatrice and Battler escape and have split up with Eva for some reason. Then Battler says some things that imply the island exploded but I always got this creepy vibe from it that Battler is so happy even though his whole family was just murdered a few hours ago.

Then I now have my theory on the stories that Yasu wrote and also ties in with GCT. Okay so we know that it is sorta obvious now that Shkanon is the culprit of the gameboards or at least the ones written by Yasu and the main question is why? Why did Yasu write these stories in the first place and what was the point? Well I don't know if it was ever said but I believe the reason was to protect someone from being thought of as being the culprit or if Yasu was the true culprit then she most likely wrote these stories for people to find out but what's the point. Why would Yasu care about people finding out she would be dead so why not just write a normal confession? Well I believe as I said she wrote the stories to protect a someone from the eyes of being guilty.

Now who is this person. The people that Yasu is closest too are of course Battler, Jessica, and George so it is likely that if she did write the stories to protect someone these 3 would be the three prime candidates for it. Now Jessica doesn't seem like the type of person who would ever murder her family and is just too innocent so I will cross her off leaving either Battler or George. We don't know much about Battler but if we see EP 8's tea party as being true it can go both ways since Battler seems fine with going back to society even after committing a horrible crime just doesn't seem very plausible so this leaves you guessed it George. And I know there are what's the point of the money she sent but was the money ever actually stated outside of EP 3. No after Ep 3 it isn't spoken of again and we can take that what happened in EP 3 was part of the game since it says Ange died in 1998 so though it may be dumb but the money may not even exist and only exist in fiction.

Now I have heard that Yasu wrote 3 stories when she wrote the stories and of course the KNM fandom is saying "Bleh durpity this thrd stry was teh Rosa Theroy!!!!!!!!!" but no I don't believe that. Yasu was writing three stories however
1st: The Magic Story
2nd: The ShKanon Culprit Story
3rd: The Hints to the True Killer
So the third story was actually the hints she threw in pointing to the true culprit and if you want to know my basis for that those clues are what are stated in Judoh's Culprit Analysis. This is just my theory that Shannon was trying to cover for George and hope that no one would find the truth although she did write clues to George being the culprit.

[Uberzaki]

There is evidence to suggest Ikuko = Yasu, one is her androgynous appearance which betrays how Ryukishi usually draws his females. Also, Featherine's TIPs description says this:

She has mastered several famous games in the past, though she has long forgotten them and the medallion on her chest is the only proof. She possesses a crescent-shaped device which floats around her head, serving as a memory aid which maintains traits such as her name, appearance, and personality.

This can suggest the multiple personalities that Yasu had, and Meta-beatrice had four games with Meta-battler. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Featherine is actually both Battler and Ikuko acting as one, which would explain the memory loss as being a trait of Battler's. I'm not entirely convinced that Yasu=Ikuko, but it would make some sense in the greater scheme of things if we want a mundane solution for Umineko.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Now Jessica doesn't seem like the type of person who would ever murder her family and is just too innocent so I will cross her off leaving either Battler or George.

I turn the burden of proof onto you: Can you find evidence saying that Jessica's character is as absolute as you say it is? Keep in mind of what she says in EP2 about there being "two of her." as well as how she responds to the kids playful teasin at school. (In the anime, she beats them with her brass kunckles. I don't remember) Can you prove what's in a person's heart using the red truth? A TIPS in Hane seem to favor a Battler Culprit Theory in which Battler is just as cold-blooded as "going back to society after comitting a horrible crime"

Also, don't bring up Land, the third story. You don't have any proof of its contents, and we have no way of speculating. Is there proof that that is what she wanted to tell?

[Asuka0NK]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I turn the burden of proof onto you: Can you find evidence saying that Jessica's character is as absolute as you say it is? Keep in mind of what she says in EP2 about there being "two of her." as well as how she responds to the kids playful teasin at school. (In the anime, she beats them with her brass kunckles. I don't remember) Can you prove what's in a person's heart using the red truth? A TIPS in Hane seem to favor a Battler Culprit Theory in which Battler is just as cold-blooded as "going back to society after comitting a horrible crime"

Also, don't bring up Land, the third story. You don't have any proof of it's contents, and we have no way of speculating. Is there proof that that is what she wanted to tell?

No I can't define any evidence it is merely just believing that she wouldn't do it based on how she reacts to deaths and such but it is possible. Also I wasn't talking about the actual stories I'm saying both of her stories are comprised of those three themes. I don't know where you got where I was talking about Land.

Also Featherine is the witch form of the Tohya? which is the person who appears in Ep 6 and 8 and is Battler and Ikuko represented by one character. I don't really understand how Ikuko is androgynous I mean I guess I just don't see it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You're usually very cautious about statements regarding Umineko, like when you specified (if she actually killed herself). I therefore wonder where do you get this certainty about the reason Yasu killed herself, even though there's really little about that.

Because you said it. We're operating under your assumptions. You're the one claiming "Word of God" said this or that was happening.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

I doubt Yasu was going to commit suicide till after the crime and she realized how horrible she was. I mean she may have murdered everyone important to her and she didn't realize everything till it was over and she couldn't leave alive. In fact she may have not commited suicide she may have exploded with the island.

Well, for Yasu and Genji, to allow themselves to blow up is pretty much the same as suicide. It's actually something to consider - we're told everyone has until midnight on the second day, but realistically, if they aren't hustling towards the Kuwadorian by 11:30, they're kinda boned.

About the stories being written to cover for someone ... eh, can't deny the possibility. But it doesn't make much sense to me - if anything, the existence of the stories is what made people think any weird murder occurred in the first place (harassment of Eva as a "conspiracy queen" aside). Furthermore, to create an account that raises suspicion, to cover for someone, YET also include that hints towards who you're covering for, just sounds so ... bleh, no.

Also, I've never liked Yasu=Ikuko. It would work in a very particular sense, yes ... but it's also quite a stretch of the imagination, and makes Yasu, who I'm already not very fond of, pretty much into a truly awful, awful, AWFUL person. I much perfer the random woman who abducts injured amnesiacs off the street, no lie.

Regarding that wierd final Tea Party, well, I think it's just a fantasy that never happened. It was said to be, um, it was compared to Featherine laying a rose on Beatrice's cat box, or something like that, right? It was just a pleasant, fanciful tale of the love for Battler being fulfilled, and Beatrice not being able to cross into the world of humans...

[Asuka0NK]

Thats why when it comes to the third layer it is the unintentional layer where their just writing the story and that is just how the true culprit acted and left clues. So pretty much apparently according to what I heard about "Our Confessions" is that Beatrice was actually writing three stories all at the same time not two and I am just assuming that the third layer was as I said earlier.

I also do prefer the crazy lady that picks up random people. Also considering that I really prefer Tohya X Ikuko. I think that Yasu = Ikuko is just a way for people to say that Beatrice and Battler were together in the end which I don't believe the ending would be that happy. Also the fact we see Beatrice during what I'm assuming is the final "death" of Battler in EP 8.

[AuraTwilight]

This can suggest the multiple personalities that Yasu had

Yasu didn't have multiple personalities.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

Also Featherine is the witch form of the Tohya? which is the person who appears in Ep 6 and 8 and is Battler and Ikuko represented by one character. I don't really understand how Ikuko is androgynous I mean I guess I just don't see it.

Why does she have to be androgynous to represent both of them?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

Well I for one don't really believe in the Yasu = Ikuko Theory because it is just too convenient and it seems Yasu would've had to plan it all out herself. I mean Yasu escapes the island and Battler is supposedly dead and she just happens to find him passed out on the roadside.

Actually I've been toying with the very twisted idea that Ikuko is Yasu but that Touya is not Battler. To illustrate, let me quote Kinzo from EP7:

...Her memory... would have returned. ......She must have been Beatrice reborn. ......Her memory was coming back bit by bit. My magical ceremonies were helping her regain her memories one little bit at a time.

This would, of course, make Yasu out as quite a wretched person, even if she's not a murderer. On the other hand, it actually makes a lot of sense if she were to take after her father/grandfather in using "magic" to bind the soul of the one she loves.

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

Thats why when it comes to the third layer it is the unintentional layer where their just writing the story and that is just how the true culprit acted and left clues. So pretty much apparently according to what I heard about "Our Confessions" is that Beatrice was actually writing three stories all at the same time not two and I am just assuming that the third layer was as I said earlier.

The third layer is about Beatrice's heart. Bolds added by me:

After you read this, it doesn't matter whether your feelings toward the woman named Beatrice are love or anger.

But if you can, try to reach her feelings, buried in the deepest part of the story.
She said that she wrote two stories and revealed one.
However, that was also wrong.
She wrote three stories and revealed one.
By reading this incomplete manuscript, you will know two of those stories.
I would like you to reach the third and final one with your own power.
As another woman, I strongly wish that of those reading this work.

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

I think that Yasu = Ikuko is just a way for people to say that Beatrice and Battler were together in the end which I don't believe the ending would be that happy.

No, I like it because it makes the meta-world make some sense. I'm not particularly fond of happy endings or anything.

[GuestSpeaker]

Speaking of the third game, I am currently toying with a theory I have yet to reread to confirm. Basically, as to the question of why murders continued and yet the epitaph was solved, I was wondering if the timeline was messed up. Eva may have solved the epitaph, as she had the ring, but what if she did it after she shot Battler. In the same way he went investigating after everyone was dead in ep 4, maybe she did too. This might be how she ended up in Kuwadorian at the bomb blast. I only say this as I believe the whole acceptance ceremony of EvaTrice thing was more about people starting to blame Eva from that point.

[Wanderer]

I don't know about that. It was pretty late on the second day for Eva to have enough time to play detective (not to mention kind of an inappropriate time to be trying to solve the epitaph). The last time frame provided in the Banquet VN was at about 6:00 when Krauss and Natsuhi were found dead. In the anime, Eva kills Battler at 11:15.

[GuestSpeaker]

I did wonder about the time frame of it all, so it is possible Eva was directed there by Yasu. My thoughts are just that if she arrived there for the first time quite late in the night, it might explain the continuation of the killings.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Because you said it. We're operating under your assumptions. You're the one claiming "Word of God" said this or that was happening.

Where did I say that Yasu killed herself out of cowardice, or that she never felt sorry in the end?

I certainly have explained a certain situation, I certainly have said that you need to conclude that she's crazy. But that's as far as I went.

Now what you say is that if what I said is true then Yasu is a cold blooded murder who killed herself out of cowardice. Which is probably an inevitable consequence for you, but a non sequitur for me.

Originally Posted by Kealym

About the stories being written to cover for someone ... eh, can't deny the possibility. But it doesn't make much sense to me - if anything, the existence of the stories is what made people think any weird murder occurred in the first place (harassment of Eva as a "conspiracy queen" aside). Furthermore, to create an account that raises suspicion, to cover for someone, YET also include that hints towards who you're covering for, just sounds so ... bleh, no.

That's my thoughts exactly.
It doesn't really seem that it makes sense for Beatrice to write those stories to cover the truth. In the end if the messages didn't exist nothing at all would have happened. The explosion itself was already more than effective to achieve that the result and we know that in fact the whole thing was officially assessed as an "unfortunate incident" without any culprit.

From the 1998 perspective we learned that it was only years after the incident, when the second message was discovered that the speculations regarding the Rokkenjima incident reached maniacal level.

So in the end, Beatrice's messages had the opposite effect, they caused people to believe in the culprit was Eva first, and the Rudolf family later.

But let's even suppose that Beatrice's was a clumsy attempt, that she obtained the opposite of her desired effect. But then why would she ask at the end of the message to "find the truth"? Why would she make people inquire more about what she wants to hide? Why not simply writing a fake account of the "true" story of the Rokkenjima incident? Why using such an unreliable method if there was really a purpose?