[Manga] Chapter 342 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking me.
Kakuzu's ghosts could AOE from his shoulders or from his back and probably anywhere on his body or completely detached from him.
What I'm saying is that Kakuzu continuing to use his high lvl AOE attack from anywhere you want would have made Naruto looks even better once he defeated him.

To me it seemed that Kakuzu didn't want to detach them any more after his second heart was defeated by Shikamaru. Maybe that sudden loss made him think that he should concentrate his power so that his hearts do not get taken out 1by1. And it was before Naruto came to the rescue. And after that he used two remaining elements and combined them in his strongest remaining elemental attack, but it was overpowered by Naruto. I have no problem with Kakuzu swithing to another tactic after his elemental attacks failed and 2 of his hearts were crashed, however i have to complain about his overall knowledge: i expected some freakin super-secret ultimate jutsu from him, something that Deidara, Sasori and Itachi have, but he didn't have one. My complaint is that this akatsuki pair was weak compared to the other 2 shown so far. Kakuzu has lived for hundreds of year, has probably fought hundreds of high level ninja, so he should be the one to have even more jutsu than Kakashi has.

I don't have a complain about Kakuzu being tricked by Naruto's kagebunshin trick because Naruto has used two rasenshurikens at the same time. I have never seen any akatsuki or kage or sannin using two instances of his ultimate attack at the same time. It's like Itachi using amaterasu himself and tsukiyomi with his KB at the same time, or Itachi using his MS when he was a clone with 30% chakra. Naruto's trick would not work if he was not capable of creating a super-jutsu with a mere clone, and i don't blame Kakuzu to falling for the trick. Also it was not just a mere trick: the clone could probably kill Kakuzu too if he didn't crush him with his tentacles.
However....
i'm complaining about Naruto not being killed by Kakuzu after his attack failed, also i complain about Kakuzu wanting to kill someone who has the demon in him, which is very important for akatsuki.

So i guess we have different problems with these chapters, but the amount is the same

[Hunter]

Since I also complain about these ones I'm afraid to be a bigger whiner

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Hunter

My rant is about the fact that it wasn't presented very well, not that within the story Kakuzu became stupid.

That's my complaint also, it more about Kishi writing choice, rather than Kakuuzu.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Rurik

That's my complaint also, it more about Kishi writing choice, rather than Kakuuzu.

-This will probably strike a few heads but could it be that the only real Akastuki that matter to the story at this point, in Kishimoto's eyes, are the one's we have already seen but have not actually fought very seriously yet?

Spoiler:

Those being Itachi, Kisame, Deidara, Zetsu, Tobi and the Akastuki Leader.

If that was the case then that makes both Hidan and Kakuzu mere test subjects for the main character's growth. I expect the others to be much more impressive.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

If that was the case then that makes both Hidan and Kakuzu mere test subjects for the main character's growth. I expect the others to be much more impressive.

I am not expecting much from the others outside of Itachi and the AL.

Hidan seems that he was specifically created to be defeated by Shikamaru to show his growth. Kakuzu was perfect for Naruto since he demonstrated the power of element jutsu which Naruto was learning in this arc.

We know when Kisame and Team Gai tangle again that something has to give. People will complain when Kisame is badly de-powered so one of the kids can kill him. Deidara? Maybe we finally get to see the full power of Sai. Zetsu? I hope he's not Team 8's crash test dummy, but he could very well be. The BH? Maybe practice for Sasuke?

So outside of Itachi and the AL, I don’t see any of the Akatsuki looking more impressive than Hidan, Kakuzu, or Sasori. I think the greatest threat is when they finally assemble their great ninja army and unleash the biju. Then we have our great war.

[Suna no tate]

Kishi is seriously beginning to annoy me now. Two more dead without revealing a single ultimate attack. Or an explanation or nothing. We still don't know anything about Hidan who is rich enough as a character to have his own miniseries.

I have no problem with shika knocking off hidan; though I'd have lliked the fight to be a little less easy for shika. I mean at least vs tayuya he had to break a finger. Again Hidan, he didn't even break a sweat. Come on...

And kakuzu, for a subzero look alike, his demise was less than cool. Falling for the oldest trick in the book is just shameful. Makes me wonder if he even ever tangled with Shodaime. A guy like that? Tangling with Shodaime? And falling for a stupid bunshin trick? Get out of here. But give naruto some credit; seems like training with 2000 clones does more than just teach you a technique-- in my opinion, he's gotten faster because of it. That can only be the explanation.

And kurenai's pregnant.
1) was anybody surprised?
2) does anybody really care?
3) Does it change anything at all if she's pregnant or not?
4) So why give her even more face time? How about giving main characters that we care about face time?
5) And I didn't even know that jounins were allowed to be pregnant and have kids. I mean, is shikas mom a jounin? Or kibas? Or sakura? I think they are all normal people.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I have no problem with shika knocking off hidan; though I'd have lliked the fight to be a little less easy for shika. I mean at least vs tayuya he had to break a finger. Again Hidan, he didn't even break a sweat. Come on...

Well the thing is that their respective fighting style made flawless victory almost mandatory.
If Shika is able to catch you the fight is pretty much finished since he can easily kill you with his shadow now.
If Hidan only scratches you you're a goner.

5) And I didn't even know that jounins were allowed to be pregnant and have kids. I mean, is shikas mom a jounin? Or kibas? Or sakura? I think they are all normal people.

Shika's mother is a Chuunin, Kiba's mother is a Chuunin, Sakura's mother is too ashamed of herself to go out and Sasuke's mom was a Jounin.

[Suna no tate]

Maybe sakura's mother has that skin disease where if light hits you, the person basically bursts into flames....
Sasuke's housewife mom was a jounin? Get out! All I ever saw her do was wear an apron and put out pancakes... Wow. Go figure.

Anyway, I still find it odd that kurenai just got pregnant without any sort of consent. I mean, what if everyone was doing it? It seems like unregulated sexual conduct would be dangerous in terms of village safety, at least thats how I see it. Its a huge liability to have ninja who can just sleep with each other and have all the babies they want. What if kurenai was the leader of a crack defense squad? Or the leader of some important military group? Its really dangerous if half your female ninja get knocked up without any sort of formal consent; it like losing half your troops. What if suddenly konoha needed her for something? SHe wouldn't be able to go because she was pregnant. Thats why you need rules regulating that because military defense is important and can be an easy thing to compromise. I find it very odd indeed. What if Ino couldn't have come to assist Asuma and shika earlier ago because she was knocked up? Or if sakura couldn't accompany chiyo and kakashi and naruto because she was pregnant with kibas baby? Chiyo would have died, kakashi and naruto would be dead at the hands of sasori and so on. Militaries need their personnel. (I think in our military, there are rules against male and female soldiers doing that right?)

Plus its not like its hard to steal a baby while the mother is in the bathroom or is cooking or sleeping or something. Babies can be held for ransom, can be used to coerce and blackmail people, and are just a huge liability...

[S_C_L-1]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Maybe sakura's mother has that skin disease where if light hits you, the person basically bursts into flames....

Vampirism? *cough*

Anyway, I still find it odd that kurenai just got pregnant without any sort of consent. I mean, what if everyone was doing it? It seems like unregulated sexual conduct would be dangerous in terms of village safety, at least thats how I see it. Its a huge liability to have ninja who can just sleep with each other and have all the babies they want. What if kurenai was the leader of a crack defense squad? Or the leader of some important military group? Its really dangerous if half your female ninja get knocked up without any sort of formal consent; it like losing half your troops. What if suddenly konoha needed her for something? SHe wouldn't be able to go because she was pregnant. Thats why you need rules regulating that because military defense is important and can be an easy thing to compromise. I find it very odd indeed. (I think in our military, there are rules against male and female soldiers doing that right?)

So she gets a bit of downtime from missions... big deal?

The "kids" (they are pretty much adult now) are strong enough to take on S ranked missions now... and Kurenai is most likely past her prime already. Having children to take up the torch after the current Genins (Naruto excluded) would be the best thing wouldnt it?

[Suna no tate]

Well, what I'm getting at is this. Ninja are your personnel. You have to know who you can count on and who you can't count on. Having kids without consent disrupts leaderships ability to know their personnel. For example, lets say theres a critical mission coming up in 3 days where a good genjutsu nin is needed and that kurenai is perfect for. SO they plan the mission around her and support her with all the right people. Then, the leadership finally finds out kurenai is pregnant and can't go. They are totally screwed and konoha gets annihilated. Its a bit of an exaggeration, but the point is if you have kids, you can't be an active ninja. Konoha needs its good active ninja. The difference of one or two people can be the difference between life or death (refer to sakura/chiyo vs sasori. What would have happened if chiyo was like, "dudes I can't go. I'm totally PREGNANT"). There'd be 3 dead ninja on your hands in kakashi, sakura, and naruto. Having people spontaneously drop out due to pregnancy without you knowing can result in people dying on the field.

I mean just think about it. If you were the leader of a mixed sex army protecting a village, would you allow your soldiers to freely sleep with each other and freely have babies without requiring any sort of consent?

[Rurik]

I understand your point perfectly about the issue of pregnant NInjas, but have in mind that women only represent roughly 33% of a Shinoby Military power. of course you are not going to loose that 33% in one day, nor everyone is going to get pregnant at the same time.

Is the same as Any type of company, were usually more than half are female, you don't see them controlling the pregnancy and when they due labor they usually take 2 to 3 months of the company, so Having a Shinoby out of commission for a year shouldn't be any problems, as they should be replacement for Injured or Killed SHinoby, or in this Case, Pregnant Shinobies.

Not to mention pregnancy represents the carriage of the Most important Asset for Konoha, so im sure the Higher tiers of Konoha wouldn't mind loosing this task force to that.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Maybe sakura's mother has that skin disease where if light hits you, the person basically bursts into flames....

Nah the poor woman got Sakura 15 years ago, she never was exactly the same after that

First you don't know if there isn't some kind of consent and if there isn't the village still have several months to change their planing around this.
I also guess that pregnant ninja can still be of use even during the last months for teaching ninja student or various other purpose beside mission outside the village.

What if Ino couldn't have come to assist Asuma and shika earlier ago because she was knocked up?

That's the 2nd point : that wouldn't change much anyway right? :P

On a more serious note, pregnant soldier is something far from unhear off in real life you know.

Plus its not like its hard to steal a baby while the mother is in the bathroom or is cooking or sleeping or something. Babies can be held for ransom, can be used to coerce and blackmail people, and are just a huge liability...

But the only way you can stop this danger is to forbid ninjas -and not just women- to have kids which basically means the death of your village. Not the smartest move.

[majin_vegeta]

Well, this was a very informative chapter. Naruto has grown alot. It should be fun to see him take on some real opponents by himself. He really did win the fight that he was in. The guy wasn't dumbed down. Hie enemy made the most logical choice, besides retreating, while fighting Naruto. It wouldn't make since for him to split his hearts up because there were at least two other people present that are capable of taking them out. Naruto was uber powered up and Kakuzo couldn't compete with him with just one heart. That' why he attacked him all out with all of his hearts. It was safer to keep all of his eggs in one basket. He took a gamble and tried to elminate the visible threat before it could be launched. It's like when you step into a punch before it is fully thrown. There was no way for him to know that Naruto could give his KB a technique like that.

On a side note, does anyone else wonder when Naruto will become a chuunin and start leading his three followers. I think Naruto becoming a teacher for Konohomaru has alot of potential. The anime set it up like that, but will Kishi actually do it.

[Suna no tate]

Not in this series. There's too much left to resolve first.

So Hunter (or anyone), I'm going to flat out ask you: you're the leader of your military village with some 1000+ plus ninja (male and female) under you. Do you let them sleep with each other freely? Freely have babies? Or do you issue some sort of regulation?

[Hunter]

I would issue sexual regulation between people depending of their ranks but no I would certainely not try to forbid people to have babies.
The reasons are simple really :
-No matter what you do you can't stop people to fuck especially when they're out of duty so better deal with reality rather than trying to enforce rules fated to fail.
-Natality in Ninja Family is an absolute necessity to maintain the strenght of the clans and the village.

If a soldier gets pregnant "by surprise" at a time that will seriously fuck up military organization (and if a problem from a single person can do that you better change your organization to begin with) then so be it. Of course said soldier will be working from now on where sudden duty incapacity will not cause troubles.
And of course even if officially it is not forbidden, it's always officiously known that duty comes before family if you want to be in charge.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Wouldnt it be a big problem then if Tsunade was/becomes pregnant ....

[S_C_L-1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Wouldnt it be a big problem then if Tsunade was/becomes pregnant ....

1 word:






menopause

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Kind of irrelevant since Kakuzu believed they were clones to begin with... and was trying to kill Naruto anyway (it's not the first time btw, you can only wonder what crossed Kakuzu's mind when he tried to tear off Naruto's heart or when Deidara almost blowed them all with his Clay clone).

Just a few points. If he believed they were clones, he was right in his decision to ignore the clones - it would be hard to argue his decision. If he were to not kill Naruto, then his decision to use his extensions instead of huge destructive attack pattern is another right decision. And, if he were to take Naruto's heart, and replace it with a dummy heart (kind of creating an puppet/dummy body), then he could have done so without killing.

I was actually way more vocal since I had way more time to arg, I had a huge arguement with Shadamehr because I was saying that both Naruto and Sasuke were fighting like bulls and you probably also forgot how I ranted about Sasori's stupidity for weeks, some comments about Shika's stamina increasing out of nowhere, how Chouji's fight was being ridiculous, etc.
Let's be fair I tend to complain a lot.

I wasn't following the forum a lot, when Shadamehr was a major poster here (I was aware of him, but at that time, I was a novice to the anime/manga world). Only posts I was following were mostly related to the heated, but quite funny, arguments involving Nine Devil. For the others, most probably, I wasn't following by giving my full attention, then.

You're missing my point, I'm not asking how Naruto's speed might have increased. I'm asking where in this chapter you see any kind of information, hint, whatever implying that Naruto's speed suddenly get a boost.

It was the first thing that came to my mind, when I saw him looking at us with that widely opened Kyuubi eyes (maybe a hint, to show us, how he pumped up the kyuubi chakra valves to the max), and creating the jutsu at a seemingly much faster speed than before.

Kakuzu thought about what was going on and basically it was : holly shit I chose to ignore the real one behind me and I notice that whereas he's right behind me while I'm in middle air.
And not OMG he's too fast.

I agree with the holy shit part. But, that great shock didn't seem to give him enough time to respond with other stuff that you mention at the end. How many seconds do you think all the following would require for him to complete, so that he can reach the last part: "Oh my god, I have made a mistake. I thought the one in front of me was the real one. But, he hid the real one among the clones, and this way diverted my attention. I can't believe that I was fooled. And, he now jumped right behind me. What a speed."

Like I said above no. The fact is that Naruto's speed was already very high the first time, with only 3 clones as decoy he completely outmanoeuvred Kakuzu.
Kakuzu knew this, he just thought he was killing the real one and didn't need to take care of the clones. And I think this is one hell of a stupid mistake.

My view is, it is sometimes possible for someone to boost his speed without asking for/requiring another character's response. So, if the speed boost is indeed the case, let's assume it is for the sake of our argument, then, ignoring those clones may still be considered as a mistake, but not actually a stupid one. If Kakuzu's real calculations were based on what he observed, and assumed that the clones would have no chance of reaching him by the time he stopped the opponent in front (which result in also destroying the clones), why divert your attention and risk losing the jutsu in front. He made a risky decision, and lost.

Kakuzu being stupid and Kishimoto's lack of imagination : po-tay-toe and po-tah-toe.

Still, not the same...

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm not arguing that Naruto didn't outmanoeuvred and outthought the very experienced and rather smart ninja that Kakuzu was. Naruto did all that, it was stated and there is no denying it.

My rant is about the fact that it wasn't presented very well, not that within the story Kakuzu became stupid.

Almost missed that one. Well, I cannot argue against that one, it could have been definitely much better.

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

you're the leader of your military village with some 1000+ plus ninja (male and female) under you. Do you let them sleep with each other freely? Freely have babies? Or do you issue some sort of regulation?

We are not talking about a regular army here. We are talking about a town, where most of the people are one way or another related to a soldier. And, note that, Konoha's future relies on the unborn generation. So, I am sure, they wouldn't mind the female ninjas giving birth - it would also help boost the morale for anyone included here.

And, considering the average number (ratio) of pregnant female soldiers at any given time (and usually, they wouldn't cause a problem in the first few months), and the number of duties to be distributed around, I think it wouldn't cause a problem. I don't think the soldiers also aim for establishing children farms. It is needed but it is still as a result of a well-thought process.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Wouldnt it be a big problem then if Tsunade was/becomes pregnant ....

Depends on the lucky/unlucky husband/father.

[Lemartes]

Originally Posted by Rurik

LOL, Sai made an Ink bushin, Reason why I talk about it, telling one clone from the other is going to be difficult regardless of the substance. and then, You are deviating from the point of what the experience is called for, is not ebcause of the Jutsu, is about the KB trick he already saw 2 times before against Naruto there, and the decision that lead to his pitiful death.

Well, I'm not sure, but is "Ink Bushin" actually is written or spelled "Kage Bushin"?
Please enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Rurik

We are talking here about someone with enough experience not to do what he did, is not about getting defeated or Killed or overpowered, thats not the point here.

.....

please, He saw exactly what to do, as he was saying to himself what not to do, and yet, he goes on and does it? HE changed from Long range because he got stupid.

...

Yes, aside from Kakuuzu seen NAruto using his clones again and again, and instead of at least trying to stop the other clone that were going towards him, he decides to jump over them, not only that, but the part of Dropping his AOE, and joining himself just so the Jutsu made by Naruto had a higher success rate.

Yeah, that was not dumbness.



The easiest way to defeat a close range fighter is fighting at long range, I wonder Why A shinoby with less experience such as Kakshi and Kidoumaru could tell this, but Kakuuzu even realizing he needed to not get close, he decided to jump right in front of him..with all his hearts!

....

NAruto only made 3 clones, 2 to make de F. Rasengan, Not only did Kakuuzu decided to totally ignore those clones, clones that he could had destroyed at ease, (because KB still are fragile), but Those 3 Kage Bushing could only be able to Deflect little or almost nothing of Kakuuzus Elementals attacks.

I'm not gonna tell you something new, if you actually read chapter 340.
Kakuuzu was outmaneuvered and was not able to take on all the clones + the original Naruto in a given timeframe. It is irrelevant whether he was able to see through narutos attack pattern or not. He didn't have enough speed to manage all of them. Therefore he focused on the real one for the 2nd time.

How can you say he made mistake after mistake and so on?
He was not capable of defeating Naruto with only two hearts remaining. End of story. Given the information from chapter 340 I'd even go as far as to say his decision to focus on the real one was quite the correct one. It still was a worthless effort. He should have run away.

Originally Posted by Rurik

This is not about judgement or been right, if My Father has 40 years working as a truck driver, he should know better about that and have in mind usual dangers of that. Kakuuzu has been Killing NInjas for 80 years, he hasn't been Playing marbles, or going to eat ice cream with HIdan, he had lived to kill other NInjas so he can continue to live.

Kakuzu can make mistake, but this one here wasn't a mistake, because he did mistake after mistake after another, this is not something normal for an experienced shinoby.

And yet, your father could still cause an accident any time of the day, because he is a human being and not perfect.

Regarding Kakuuzu, s.o.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Depends on the lucky/unlucky husband/father.

-Jiraiya ? Well, if Tsunade had a kid it would be both a big problem and a blessing all at once. On the plus side, the child would be legendary, even if only in name due to lineage. On the downside, during the pregnancy Tsunade (the current Hokage) would be out of comission which seriously lowers Konohagakure's status. But if she had the next Hokage already lined up then it wouldn't really matter now would it?