[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kani]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

Sorry I forgot about that. Then my guess would be it was to create a mystery for Battler in a try to remind him of their mystery discussions. Sounds like a lame motive though.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hideyoshi claims he sees Shannon. Why Hideyoshi makes that claim?

He might take for granted that she's dead since she lies with theother corpses. I don't think he did a close inspection. Also if I remember correctly I think Will or someone else said something along the lines of "That was quite risky, if they had looked closer you'd been found out."

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Jessica was with Nanjo when he treated Kanon. How come Jessica didn't notice a thing?

Good point. Depend show much we can make assumptions here. Nanjo could for example have told her to stay back and never given her the chance to inspect closer. And whoever the culprit is they're a darn good actor. Actually I don't like that the culprit never seems to make any mistakes. You can't find anything out from their expressions or such.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How could Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji be so condescending about a plan involving their own death?

Genji feels a great debt to Kinzo and have at some point said he's ready to die for him I think. There's not much backstory on Kumasawa but she was at least a maid for Kuwadorian-Beato and maybe got strong motherly feelings for her. As for Nanjo, I have no idea. I find it quite hard that Kumasawa or Nanjo would go as far a s suicide. But maybe Genji joined her and they killed the other 2 together.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's not just Genji, There's Kumasawa and Gohda too. Rosa also must have been the one who opened the door, she would have noticed if it was open already.
Why is Rosa covering the murderer?

I'm not sure if Ghoda ever tried the door. I can only remember Genji checking it. And depending on the kind of lock, Rosa might not ave noticed if the door unlocked or not.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is actually the only murder case that ryuukishi explained in details. Shannon killed Gohda and George with a gun. She then killed herself by tying the gun to a weight. The weight then dragged the weapon behind the dresser. Which is why Shannon was found sat in front of it.

Where did he explain this? That's quite a complicated murder. I wonder how he could think we would be able to guess something like that?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Isn't it simplier if the usual culprit "Yasu" killed them before the 3rd - 5th twilight? I think that the less people you assume they are murderer the better it is.
Also how Gohda was threatened? Why he didn't tell the truth once in front of everyone?

That's true, but since I made the assumption that they were part of the bad guys gang from the beginning, I thought it would be a better way to have a few "extra culprits" running around for a while. It makes reasoning easier.
I'm not sure if the threatened thing is right, I just can't think of any other explanation. Maybe he were too scared to tell them? But you're right this is a weak link in my logic.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Generally your reconstruction is the one that's most accepted and that was hinted by Will. However Will completely missed to explain "How" all these crimes could have been performed when it's obvious that they required the complicity of several people.
This is the hardest thing to explain.

Yep, definitely. Especially since we don't even know if the culprit is the same in all arcs.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A popular theory is that there was a fake murder conspiracy. So basically pretty much everyone except Battler enacted a serial murder scenario believing no one was going to really die, but then Yasu killed the victims for real once they've been isolated. This is hinted in EP5 and EP6 where the first twilight victims are clearly not dead when discovered but everyone say they are.

I can't really get this theory to fit with the first arcs. But of course it's worth keeping in mind.

[Cao Ni Ma]

RK07 stated a lot of hints about the story in his last interview with Keya. He also said the manga version of the later chapters would probably have more clues as to what actually happened.

Some other things.

Rosa most certainly checked the door before going in. Remember, she goes to the trouble of getting the key and opening the door. She also had no need to lie about meeting Kinzo either, that is if she wasnt trying to hide something. The problem I have with Rosa in here is that it doesn't feel like she's covering for Shkanon. She even goes and fingers Kanon as being the most likely culprit in Jessica's murder and ostracizes the rest of the servants because she quite logically suspects something wrong with them. Well it could all be a some sort of eleventh dimensional chess thing going on to trick Battler

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kani

He might take for granted that she's dead since she lies with theother corpses. I don't think he did a close inspection. Also if I remember correctly I think Will or someone else said something along the lines of "That was quite risky, if they had looked closer you'd been found out."

No Hideyoshi is in front on the spot where supposedly Shannon is, he even said that he saw the ring in her hand. There's no way he isn't blatanly lying.
As for Will he was talking about someone else. Wanderer said it was George, I personally think Will was talking about Battler. He never got close enough to Shannon's body.

Originally Posted by Kani

Genji feels a great debt to Kinzo and have at some point said he's ready to die for him I think. There's not much backstory on Kumasawa but she was at least a maid for Kuwadorian-Beato and maybe got strong motherly feelings for her. As for Nanjo, I have no idea. I find it quite hard that Kumasawa or Nanjo would go as far a s suicide. But maybe Genji joined her and they killed the other 2 together.

As Wanderer pointed out the possibility of Genji being a murderer in EP1 was ruled out in red. I had forgotten about that.

Originally Posted by Kani

Where did he explain this? That's quite a complicated murder. I wonder how he could think we would be able to guess something like that?

Huge interview that you can find translated here:

http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...sion/#more-253

[Kani]

Wanderer:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The multiple personality stuff might be caused by the fall from the cliff as a child.
And her upbringing and implied sexual problems. Also, be careful about the term "multiple personalities"; she wouldn't be able to function the way she does if she truly had multiple personalities. "Multiple identities" might be a better term.
Good point!



He/she (the Shanon personality) wants revenge on Battler for breaking his promise, by killing his relatives and friends.
This is disputed. Does Yasu really seem like this kind of person? I don't think she wanted revenge (writing about killing people is different from actually doing it).
True, and as pointed out by Jan-Poo, there's some reds denying it. So Maybe as I replied to him, s/he wanted to create a mystery.



First arc:
1st twilight: Yasu, Genji, Kumasawa or Nanjo (either of them) poisons the victims. Then carries them to the storage shed.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers! was said in red by Beatrice in her red-blue duel with Battler at the end of episode 4. Still, they can be accomplices. The use of poison is very reasonable as it would be the easiest way to carry out the murder.
Yasu pretends to have been killed as well in the form of Shanon. Later she leaves the shed and shows up as Kanon.
Shannon's body isn't even in the shed (Kanon was even present at the discovery IIRC). The only people who "saw" Shannon's corpse were Nanjo and Hideyoshi; they lied. This is why Will says it was risky on Claire's part, because it would have all been blown open if "that guy" (George) insisted on seeing the corpse.
You got a point there! Then maybe s/he used the gold to bribe him. Since he's in need of money.



2nd twilight: The servants kill Eva and Hideyoshi. Then they pretend the chain was set and that the mark on the door appeared mysteriously.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers! but otherwise correct.
Ahh, forgot that! Then Yasu might have killed them, then the servants did the chain-lie.



Second arc
1st twilight
Solution 1: Yasu unlocks the chapel door before giving the key to Maria. After they find the victims Genji lies about the door being locked.
Correct, but it wasn't just Genji; it was also Gohda and Rosa (and Shannon/Kanon too, of course)
Are you sure Rosa was involved? Maybe she just put the key in and turned around, before trying the door without key. With some locks you can't feel if it unlocks or not.



2nd twilight: Kannon kills Jessica, locks the door with his masterkey and hides.
Kanon needed to become Shannon shortly after, but otherwise correct.
Yea change the "hide" into "turned into Shannon"



3rd - 5th twilight: Kumasawa and Nanjo helps Shannon kill George and Ghoda. Shannon's death is possibly faked since they don't check her carefully.
I don't think Kumasawa and Nanjo were involved. Shannon committed suicide- this was suggested by Will's comment "No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room." and later confirmed by Ryuukishi in an interview. He said the method was with a gun and she used a trick to make sure it would end up out of sight.
Hmm so at least we know that one!



I'm not sure I got the second arc right, but I think I'm close to the solution at least.
For me, the biggest enigma of episode 2 is Rosa. She shows tell-tale signs of being "in on it" but also clearly sees her accomplices as enemies too.
Sorry for my poor English, what are tell-tale signs?


What also confuses me is that Battler is in the mansion during the end of first twilight. Which would mean he dies. But he also gets out alive.
Is this not a requirement in the game rules?
Yasu never targets Battler (or Maria), also I don't think being in the mansion is a requirement, it's just that people in the mansion make for more convenient targets.
Ah I think you missunderstood me, I was thinking of the mansion-part of the island blowing up. But since you answered my question for Eva I think the same applies for Battler. Thanks!

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Jessica was with Nanjo when he treated Kanon. How come Jessica didn't notice a thing?

I always just figured Jessica was fooled by some good acting and a lot of fake blood.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How could Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji be so condescending about a plan involving their own death?

You mean "consenting", right? I agree, I'm not so certain they would volunteer to die. Maybe Genji, but that's it.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A popular theory is that there was a fake murder conspiracy. So basically pretty much everyone except Battler enacted a serial murder scenario believing no one was going to really die, but then Yasu killed the victims for real once they've been isolated. This is hinted in EP5 and EP6 where the first twilight victims are clearly not dead when discovered but everyone say they are.

The idea has merit, but it would require some hard-to-swallow assumptions at some parts, like Gohda and Rosa believing that the whole Halloween scene in episode 2 was fake.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is. The boiler room doesn't have any window. The boiler room is underground.

*sigh* Duh. I know that. You're not following my train of argument. What I am trying to say is that the boiler room door is not the only entrance not explicitly said to be locked, yet you're obsessed over that one entrance. The only reason it gets more scrutiny is because you are assuming that one (arguably not) ambiguous line in episode 1 says that the door has no lock on it.

Originally Posted by Kani

Where did he explain this? That's quite a complicated murder. I wonder how he could think we would be able to guess something like that?

It's actually borrowed from a famous murder Mystery novel. You could guess it if you were a Mystery reader.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Rosa most certainly checked the door before going in. Remember, she goes to the trouble of getting the key and opening the door. She also had no need to lie about meeting Kinzo either, that is if she wasnt trying to hide something. The problem I have with Rosa in here is that it doesn't feel like she's covering for Shkanon. She even goes and fingers Kanon as being the most likely culprit in Jessica's murder and ostracizes the rest of the servants because she quite logically suspects something wrong with them. Well it could all be a some sort of eleventh dimensional chess thing going on to trick Battler

Rosa probably received instruction from Beatrice anonymously; she probably doesn't know who Beatrice actually is.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I already went over the Rosa points that Wanderer alluded too. There really isn't a simple way to describe her actions. She's "in it" because there's substancial evidence that points to her lying. She isnt in it because she logically points out weaknesses to Shkanon's plan! She mentions that we cant trust that Kanon is dead and that he's the most likely culprit to Jessica's murder. She points out that unless we find a body she wont discard the possibility that Kumasawa and Nanjo are alive.

We can try to actually go inside her head and think a reason that would fit both scenarios. For example, in the morning Genji wakes her up by telling her that he cant find any of the other adults. She joins him in the search till they arrive at the chapel, they find it open. Rosa checks inside and sees the corpses, freaks out and asks Genji about the door. She says that the door should have been closed like it usually was, Genji mentions that the door was locked when he checked the night before. He also mentions that the key wasn't where its usually stored. Rosa freaks out and remembers Maria's letter, goes out and verifies the contents of it.

e- Actually there would still be issues, she goes pretty in depth telling Battler that the door was closed when she arrive so no. It would have to be something else entirely.
e2- Eeeeh thinking a little deeper brought me into the possibility that she might be going along with them at first just to feign ignorance while still suspecting them. Isn't this something that she would do as a child to deflect some of her older siblings attentions? So assume she's innocent and a scenario like the above happened. She'll go trough a few possibilities like "Maria did it and re-sealed the letter, Someone else did and re-sealed the letter, the door was never locked" Obviously she'll never think that her child has a part of it (a mother would never implicate her daughter, as hinted in EP1). So she'll naturally assume that the most likely course of events was that she was lied to, so she goes along with the servants. As more and more evidence points at them as being complacent she locks them out and arms herself.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Rosa probably received instruction from Beatrice anonymously; she probably doesn't know who Beatrice actually is.

This would work but only if she thinks that Beatrice is not one of the people already on the island. After the second twilight there was only one woman that could have mascaraed as Beatrice

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Beatrice is thoroughly one of the best parts, if not the best part, of Umineko. She was awesome the first time through, but going over episodes 1-4 again knowing what's truly behind her makes her even more compelling. She dominates in the meta-world, the world of illusions, but can't even show her face in the real world; she somehow manages to be firmly extant and completely illusory at the same time. It's really cool. And to know that she is actually the shadow of a real person, a very unassuming real person, makes her all the more interesting.

Well, I was half with you. I think Chiru ruins her as a character, perhaps the only fully-realized character in the entire work whose motives and objectives I would consider consistent, comprehensible, and capable of growth over the course of the story.

Yasu Pity Party destroys her character and makes her just another in a sea of Japanese VN characters I've seen who hint at being dynamic and interesting while not actually being those things at all.

Although if Pity Me Yasu is herself just another fictional front for Badass Hoaxmaster Yasu, I retract that statement, because that person would be freaking awesome.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Although if Pity Me Yasu is herself just another fictional front for Badass Hoaxmaster Yasu, I retract that statement, because that person would be freaking awesome.

You have no idea how I wanted EP8 to have that sort of ending, be it the true one or a joke ending. A masterful troll taking 3 episodes to flesh out just to have Beatrice put on her troll face and go: "Jeez Battler, You really are incompetent" Hahaha.wav ad infinitum.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

*sigh* Duh. I know that. You're not following my train of argument. What I am trying to say is that the boiler room door is not the only entrance not explicitly said to be locked, yet you're obsessed over that one entrance. The only reason it gets more scrutiny is because you are assuming that one (arguably not) ambiguous line in episode 1 says that the door has no lock on it.

Sigh you can't get a clue when someone just wants to drop an argument... okay then...

There was no need to go over the windows in every case because they basically skimmed through the six rooms, but that means it is implied they are in the same condition. However the boiler room was not in the same condition as the other rooms because it was supposed to have another door which required a special mention since the other rooms did not have a door leading to the internal courtyard. Courtyard that was stated to be connected to the Mansion by doors devoid of any lock.

This is what was stated. The idea that the door to the boiler room was an exception to that statement is just your own unsupported assumption.

P.S. What is that supposed to mean that I'm "obsessed" with that door? I'm not even the one who brought this argument up. If it's just because I'm insisting on my point, you are as obsessed as I am. Refrain from adding unnecessary comments on my persona please. Let's try to keep a civil tone at least.

[goldendust]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

It depends on what the truth actually is though. I dont see how you could sympathize with someone that would murder your whole family in cold blood and actually find some sort of cruel joy out of it. This "Beatrice" is the one Battler hates in EP1-4. In EP5 Beatrice is completely different from the get go and Battler is lost in how he should act about her for most of the episode. Once he finds out the truth he switches sides.

In EP6 he wants the old Beatrice back, probably because he feels like he wanted to thank or ask for her forgiveness. Kinda like what Kinzo experiences in EP7 and probably before that as well.

So it comes down to this, If you think that Yasu is an actual murderer then Battler is quite irrational with his feelings for Beatrice. If he thinks that Beatrice was just a pitiful person that wrote some stories to vent his/her anger then its not that bad. If she actually did nothing and the image of Beatrice is something that was created to hide a painful truth then its even better.

Yasu has to be a criminal considering the "count down" in episode 7. That Claire commented on the horrible crimes that she/he would commit.

Though what implies that Yasu just wrote a few tales and just playing with Battler? Didn't the games begin when the Ushiyomiya family went to purgatory where the Witch's reign.


My simple theory to the whole story in its simplest form when reading through it

-rokkenjima incident happens(Yasu killed everyone )
-everyone dies
-Yasu keeps the whole family within purgatory with the power of witches in the form of games. That Yasu wants Battler to realize the truth even in death.

Which would explain why Battler gave up on returning to his little sister once he knew the truth. He isn't leaving and it certainly explains his passive attitude towards Ange with the key without any intentions of leaving. Either giving her the choice to die to join them or give her a chance at life.


Though I bet that the latter half of Ep 8 would probably disprove my theory since I bet the end will be ambiguous as hell. Although I have been right about the culprit, and the word play in Ep3.

[Cao Ni Ma]

"Purgatory" is Battler's mind as he tries to to find out what the truth is. Everything in the meta world could be some metaphorical construction of Battler getting his ideas straight of what might or might not have happened. For all we know, a game was made that wasn't entirely deadly and someone hijacked it. Maybe Battler himself is the one that killed everyone! Maybe it really was Kyrie and Rudolph! We dont know, what we do know is that someone wrote some tales. Thats really all we can be sure off.

Of course there still might be the possibility that Beatrice actually carried out a murder game. This doesn't make much sense in light to how Battler has acted or how some of the later scenes with Ange play out.

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu has to be a criminal considering the "count down" in episode 7. That Claire commented on the horrible crimes that she/he would commit.

Though what implies that Yasu just wrote a few tales and just playing with Battler? Didn't the games begin when the Ushiyomiya family went to purgatory where the Witch's reign.

Yasu wrote a series of fictions in which she becomes a witch and kills everyone, releasing them to the public.

Yasu also constantly boasts that Battler should believe in her so he doesn't have to blame his relatives.

Yasu is taking the fall for someone else.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kani

Are you sure Rosa was involved? Maybe she just put the key in and turned around, before trying the door without key. With some locks you can't feel if it unlocks or not.

I really like Rosa, so I have to accept her involvement with reluctance. The chapel lie is hard enough to dodge, considering how certain she appeared that it was locked, but there's more. She lied about meeting Kinzo (why would she do that?). It's also pretty hard to imagine anyone else being responsible for the letter that Battler found in the parlor at the end of the episode. And the group splits that Rosa orchestrated always seemed to work out well for the wolves of the "wolf and sheep" puzzle; I don't think Umineko brought up those puzzles for no reason .

Originally Posted by Kani

Sorry for my poor English, what are tell-tale signs?

Red flags. Dead giveaways. Obvious signs.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

This would work but only if she thinks that Beatrice is not one of the people already on the island. After the second twilight there was only one woman that could have mascaraed as Beatrice

True, but only if she had met Beatrice in person. It is hinted that she did meet her in person in episode 2, but on the other hand in episode 1 we had all the adults supposing from the mysterious letter that "Beatrice" could have been Kinzo or anybody. If we went ahead and supposed Rosa's communication with Beatrice was by letter only, then it would still make sense if Rosa had no idea of "Beatrice"'s true gender.

[Renall]

Doesn't ep2 sort of suggest Rosa may have actually met Beatrice in person right at the start, and then again later? Granted, she might not know who she is, but unless that part was all complete jack, she'd met her before she had opportunity to lie about Kinzo.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I really like Rosa, so I have to accept her involvement with reluctance. The chapel lie is hard enough to dodge, considering how certain she appeared that it was locked, but there's more. She lied about meeting Kinzo (why would she do that?). It's also pretty hard to imagine anyone else being responsible for the letter that Battler found in the parlor at the end of the episode. And the group splits that Rosa orchestrated always seemed to work out well for the wolves of the "wolf and sheep" puzzle; I don't think Umineko brought up those puzzles for no reason .

Well you need to do is think that she's innocent and some possibilities open up. What leads me to believe (want!) that she's innocent is how the episode portrays her. Its really easy to distrust and even hate Rosa in EP2, so it would have been a good twist to actually have her be innocent in the end and she's unwittingly aiding the culprit in her actions.

Lying about Kinzo is easy enough, what would happen if she really is innocent and everyone else found out that Kinzo is dead or missing?

[goldendust]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

"Purgatory" is Battler's mind as he tries to to find out what the truth is. Everything in the meta world could be some metaphorical construction of Battler getting his ideas straight of what might or might not have happened. For all we know, a game was made that wasn't entirely deadly and someone hijacked it. Maybe Battler himself is the one that killed everyone! Maybe it really was Kyrie and Rudolph! We dont know, what we do know is that someone wrote some tales. Thats really all we can be sure off.

It may be some tales written though I do think the game was set up from the start, it just continued since Yasu became the endless witch thanks to Lamba.

Of course there still might be the possibility that Beatrice actually carried out a murder game. This doesn't make much sense in light to how Battler has acted or how some of the later scenes with Ange play out.

Though doesn't it fit the general mentality of Yasu? That the first game was a failure however through Lamda he/she is allowed to recreate the game endlessly.

Anyway which scenes do you mean exactly?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yasu wrote a series of fictions in which she becomes a witch and kills everyone, releasing them to the public.

Yasu also constantly boasts that Battler should believe in her so he doesn't have to blame his relatives.[/COLOR]

Yasu is extremely deranged, it is possible that Yasu wrote them as way to express herself in a way she couldn't.

More so we know with two other women such as Kirie/Natsuhi that they both wrote into a book to express their feelings. I feel that Yasu did that fro the same reasons. That he/she wrote them and threw into the ocean as way to express her/his feelings.

Also Yasu constantly boasts that Battler should believe in witches since that is part of the game he/she created. It been mentioned in Claire's confession that talking with Gaap that she entertains the thought of making murders look like magic.

Yasu is taking the fall for someone else.

Depending on the game, I do think that someone is making use of Yasu's game to cover their own actions.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by goldendust

-in episode one, we were introduced to Battler,as somehow who would never forgive the killing of his family. The whole reason why he accepted this game was to uncover who the hell would brutally murder his whole family and to prove that a witch didn't do it.

-in episode two, there was a huge conflict in Battler about the possibility that someone that he cares about is a insane murderer. To the extent that he broke down mentally and started crying.

-episode three, Battler cannot forgive the idea of toying with people even if they are just "chess pieces" that can be revived or replaced for their own selfish reasons.

-episode four, he realized that he cannot play around with Beatrice since he has a sister at home waiting for him.

For the first 3 episodes it's because he thinks Beatrice is being cruel. He seems passionate, but he's really just being juvenile and half-hearted about the whole fight. With Ange in episode 4, he finally realizes that there was something real at stake (what I mean by "real" will make more sense with the end of episode 8).

The main reason for the transformation he goes through when learning the truth is kind of simple; he figures out that Beatrice (Yasu) is actually a decent person, and that her motives are not as malicious as they initially appear to be. Battler's transformation and acceptance of Beatrice is actually a huge hint that Yasu is innocent. His approach to helping Ange also changes from defeating the witch (revealing the truth) to protecting the witch (hiding the truth). Basically, he figured out that Beatrice was hiding the truth and why she was doing it, and he decided he should do the same for Ange's sake.

Originally Posted by goldendust

Yasu has to be a criminal considering the "count down" in episode 7. That Claire commented on the horrible crimes that she/he would commit.

I basically agree with AuraTwilight on this. Yasu never killed anyone, nor did she ever try to. I think Yasu's "horrible crime" was revealing the gold to the relatives, which lead them to start a bloodbath on their own. As Yasu is characterized, it makes sense to think she would blame herself in such a scenario.

Of course this implies that she wrote her fictions post-incident.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Well you need to do is think that she's innocent and some possibilities open up. What leads me to believe (want!) that she's innocent is how the episode portrays her. Its really easy to distrust and even hate Rosa in EP2, so it would have been a good twist to actually have her be innocent in the end and she's unwittingly aiding the culprit in her actions.

Lying about Kinzo is easy enough, what would happen if she really is innocent and everyone else found out that Kinzo is dead or missing?

Haha, I think RK07 spent his chance to use this twist on episode 1, where Natsuhi was suspicious but innocent.

Sure, you can force Rosa to be innocent if you try hard enough, but you have to pile up numerous awkward explanations in order to do that. It's hard to tell exactly how deeply involved Rosa is, though.

Originally Posted by Renall

Doesn't ep2 sort of suggest Rosa may have actually met Beatrice in person right at the start, and then again later? Granted, she might not know who she is, but unless that part was all complete jack, she'd met her before she had opportunity to lie about Kinzo.

It does suggest she met her, but you know... could be jack.

I don't think it's that strong of a theory. If you have a better explanation for Rosa's behavior in episode 2 then I would love to hear it.

EDIT: Oh yeah.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

This would work but only if she thinks that Beatrice is not one of the people already on the island. After the second twilight there was only one woman that could have mascaraed as Beatrice

There's also Kanon, who could pass as a woman , and his whereabouts were unknown.

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu is extremely deranged, it is possible that Yasu wrote them as way to express herself in a way she couldn't.

More so we know with two other women such as Kirie/Natsuhi that they both wrote into a book to express their feelings. I feel that Yasu did that fro the same reasons. That he/she wrote them and threw into the ocean as way to express her/his feelings.

Also Yasu constantly boasts that Battler should believe in witches since that is part of the game he/she created. It been mentioned in Claire's confession that talking with Gaap that she entertains the thought of making murders look like magic.

In what sense is Yasu "extremely deranged"? You'll have to define that.

This is a girl too timid to make a phonecall to a boy she liked and you expect me to believe that she can murder eighteen people, including people she loved and an innocent nine year old girl, without any hesitation?

Depending on the game, I do think that someone is making use of Yasu's game to cover their own actions.

The games are based on an incident that REALLY happened. Who was the murderer in the real world?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Haha, I think RK07 spent his chance to use this twist on episode 1, where Natsuhi was suspicious but innocent.

Sure, you can force Rosa to be innocent if you try hard enough, but you have to pile up numerous awkward explanations in order to do that. It's hard to tell exactly how deeply involved Rosa is, though.

It would be a concurrent theme though

EP1 and EP5 with Natsuhi, EP2 with Rosa, EP3 with Eva. Hell even Battler in EP5 draws the fire to himself at one point.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

EDIT: Oh yeah.


There's a metaphorical scene near the end of the game where Ange figures out the truth herself. Its heavily implied that this either causes her to commit double murder/suicide or causes her to go slightly derange and turn herself into a writer and orphanage owner that idolizes Beatrice.



There's also Kanon, who could pass as a woman , and his whereabouts were unknown.

There is a certain scene in EP2 that foreshadows Beatrice 2, she might really think that this Beatrice might be doing the actual crimes too.

Originally Posted by goldendust

Anyway which scenes do you mean exactly?

Its a metaphorical scene near the end of the game where Ange finds out the truth. This leads to one of two implied endings. In one she commits double murder and suicide after apparently falling into despair. The other one she becomes a writer, writing children stories with a character like Sakutarou as the protagonist. She also owns an orphanage where Beatrice seems to be idolized. I dont know, seem somewhat deranged of her.

Neither of these seem to be possible if the truth was just "Random maid in the island was actually the head of the family and she murdered everyone after having a existential crisis over which cousin he/she would have preferred to bone"