2012-11-10, 13:22 | Link #3061 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2012-11-10, 13:49 | Link #3062 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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I'm actually not sure what to think of it at this point. I took it as symbolic when I first read it, and thought that should be obvious to everybody, must be just how I think...I dunno. As for the polarization, you may want to read this article. Electoral map shows divided America after Election 2012 http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...rld&id=8879619
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2012-11-10, 13:49 | Link #3063 | |
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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2012-11-10, 13:50 | Link #3064 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 46
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And I think the Texas state constitution has a clause on seceding from the union if they want? |
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2012-11-10, 13:53 | Link #3065 | ||
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2012-11-10, 14:03 | Link #3067 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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However, we all know that Lousiana isn't going to secede, they're just pissed off and venting right now. That said, if Dianne Frankenstien gets her way, we may actually see some violence. Senator Feinstein looking to introduce new assault weapons ban http://www.examiner.com/article/sena...lt-weapons-ban
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2012-11-10, 14:06 | Link #3068 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2012-11-10, 14:10 | Link #3069 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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2012-11-10, 16:41 | Link #3072 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I get that you're big on the whole libertarian thing, but there are just some things that work better when government, together with citizen participation and oversight, do the job. It's not like Universal Healthcare is something never tried before. It exists, it works, and it produces better care and lower costs than the American system which frankly...is abominable for a nation with so much wealth in money, skills, people, and technology. I'm not jumping up and down for the AFA. It's essentially an insurance industry handout. But it is a step, a tiny, conservative step, but it is a step in the direction toward changing attitudes. This isn't like owning a car or a house. You don't need those things, there are options. Healthcare is imperative. Everyone gets sick and injured. Those without, or who don't seek, healthcare, are a burden on society. A burden the rest of us have to pay for, in more ways than one. It is our obligation as part of the social contract to take care of each other, even if it's for the selfish reason of wanting the same thing for ourselves when our time of need comes. We're the herd of animals with leaders in the front, and defenders in the back. We're not supposed to leave the weak and unfortunate behind as we move forward. We're better than survival of the fittest. We make our own destiny. Private industry has had plenty of chances to step up and find a free market solution to this problem. They failed. But, in all of the nations with government run health care, there is still a private industry option that works alongside it. Both work fine, with no conflict, and people are happy. I see zero reason that can't be possible here. "The government" isn't some nameless Machiavellian villain working in dark backrooms determined to screw people out of their rights. It's just a tool of society that creates policy. It's subject to human flaws like peer pressure, confirmation bias, and false narrative. It's subject to poor voter understanding of issues, leading to bad candidates and policies. It's subject to money, for all of its corrupting influence. It is a reflection of who we are as a people, ultimately. In the end though, it's just a thing. The Constitution is just words on paper. The Founding Fathers were just men. These things are as big, small, unchangeable, changeable, as we permit them to be. They are man made, not laws of nature. They themselves created something were once was nothing. Why we chain ourselves down instead of exercising that same freedom is beyond me sometimes.
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2012-11-10, 20:21 | Link #3074 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Thomas Jefferson Also Supported Government Run Health Care http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plu...erson_sup.html Quote:
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Healthcare is not an imperative, it's a good idea, but not a right in and of itself. It is a service, and if we want our society to be where everyone has it, we must either amend the constitition and make it a right protected by it, or we must make it a service that is provided for using the taxing power of congress. As it stands it is a mandate to buy a product or pay a penalty, and thus it is more a benefit to the insurance companies and IRS than it is to the people. Interesting how it either benefits corporations or the government, but not the citizenry at large. The marriage of corporation and state is the reason for the nonsense that is the AFA. Quote:
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Political parties. Yes. You know, the Democrat-Republican Party. We had a fantastic government (though flawed in many ways) before the corporatists began altering it into something it was never intended to be (starting in 1913): a totalitarian system. Quote:
We agree that government is a tool. We're we disagree is what the nature of that tool is. History has shown without doubt that government has the power vested in it to use force: be that force war, taxes, imprisonment or other powers. Therefore, the primary function of government is force, nothing more, nothing less, and that force must be controlled lest it become extremely destructive. It is for this reason that classical liberals like myself hold that the government that governs least governs best. However, governing isn't providing services. If a people contract out to their government for a service, then it is the duty of said government to provide said service due to the will of the people (in a Republican form of government anyway). Governing is telling you how to live: i.e. excercising authority over a person or persons through the administration of policy and/or laws. Since we're speaking of strictly healthcare here I'll stick to that as my example. For healthcare to be within the confines of the constitution, the SCOTUS had to declare it a tax because even they said a mandate to buy a product is unconstitutional. Nevertheless, while it may be a "tax" on paper via the SCOTUS decision, it is in actual practice a mandate to buy a product since you will now HAVE to buy insurance from a private company or pay the penalty to the IRS (if your employer doesn't cover your insurance). I'm curious to know what's going to happen if someone doesn't pay the fine, and doesn't get insurance and is self-employeed. That is going to be very interesting. Quote:
We bind ourselves to contracts such as these so that anarchy doesn't reign supreme and to protect ourselves from tyranny.
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Last edited by GundamFan0083; 2012-11-10 at 20:24. Reason: whoops, used the forbes article instead of the Washpost one. |
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2012-11-10, 21:47 | Link #3075 | |
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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*Sadly the word regulation has become the enemy for many people in the USA, makes me wonder how do they think the human body work without regulation (coded into our DNA) or computers would work without regulation (coded into the operative system of your choice). |
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2012-11-10, 23:43 | Link #3076 | |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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2012-11-11, 02:30 | Link #3080 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Why am I thinking the Latino vote won't believe the "sudden change of heart"?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...with-hispanics
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