Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[tzia_n]

Originally Posted by Droplet

Holy cow, this episode reminds me of the storyline of MGS 3: Snake Eater. ;_;

This episode was, to say the least, amazing... now to rewatch it a few more times to grasp the minor details.

EDIT:

Please refresh me with theories concerning whether Lelouche is alive or not after that act in the Parade.

Edit 2:

FOUND IT: THE EVIDENCE THAT LELOUCHE IS ALIVE

let me give you the low-down on things:

there are several hints given as to why lelouch is alive. there are several hints given as to why lelouch is dead. both theories are valid as speculations. it can go either way until/unless more information is released by the makers of this series

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And you think that wouldn't have any impact on the Britanian's national pride? And that Xing Ke and the others wouldn't have protested when it turned out the rulers of the other chunks of Britania somehow always voted as Lelouch did?


The nobles are a small minority. You can't wage war on more than half of your own country - especially if you want to stay Mister Nice Guy.

And heck, how is oppressing your own people somehow better than war?


Maybe... If Schneizel hadn't been there.


It still came out as "Every person in the UFN's equal, except the Britanian, who are each only worth 0.2 human being."


10%, actually. (20% of half the world) It's not so much. How many do China and India have? Are they willing to give up 80% of their votes so as not to overwhelm smaller nations?


I thought he'd already freed the Areas. Didn't they say so?


The leader of the largest nation after Britania and the one who not only is chairwoman of the UFN, but controls the world's largest supply of Sakuradite. and don't forget India, who probably know as much as Tian Zi.



So your plan was to let him kill two billion people? And you think it's somehow a preferable alternative?


After he's killed two billion people and broken the spirit of the survivors, it's too late to think about facing him head on.


The difference between Lelouch and Charles or Schneizel is that eventually (a rather short "eventually", too), Lelouch let go.


The overwhelming majority wishes not to get killed in senseless wars.


Or was geassed. Why would Lelouch let him be a loose end?

The point of the argument is that there were viable alternatives to the Zero Requiem... other ways to achieve peace were presented COUNTLESS times. It just undermines the whole purpose of the Zero Requiem that there were other alternatives, when it should have been more properly set up throughout the later episodes of the series that whatever the Zero Requiem wound up being, it would have been THE ONLY way to achieve peace. For a character that is portrayed as a mastermind, the way the Zero Requiem panned out did not fit Lelouch's character other than to redeem him, make him atone for his sins, and end his storyline. The ending would have worked much better if there was some time dedicated to Schneizel already winning over the UFN BEFORE Lelouch took the representatives hostage (so that it was his only choice.... but in the situation he was presented in in the actual episode, it wasn't his only choice).

Put it this way: for Lelouch, who takes everything into consideration, the entire Zero Requiem would have failed if Schneizel had fired upon the Avalon and killed the UFN hostages. EVERYONE would have turned on him. And he almost did, it was BY CHANCE that Xing-ke got there and destroyed one of the floats, or else the hostages would have been toast. End of Zero Requiem.

There were just too many loopholes and alternatives to go through... I'm not saying they would have maked for a better ending. But how many lives were lost in the war between Schneizel and Lelouch? How many people died in the FLEIAs that were detonated on the battlefield? That was a senseless war. And it also hardly painted Lelouch as the epitome of evil. If he had failed to capture the Damocles, again, end of Zero Requiem.

When you weigh the options, we have this scenario...

1. Lelouch agrees to UFN demands and joins
-Lelouch already knows about Schneizel's plans and the Damocles and can reveal them to the UFN
-Lelouch is already favored by many UFN delegates for the positive changes he has made within Britannia
-He can continue to guide Britannia in the right direction
-He would have to decommission his army so that the Black Knights could serve as the army for Britannia as well, saving countless lives
-He could actually see his plans through to the end, instead of speculating that the world would come together if he was killed while being the epitome of evil
-Nunnally and Lelouch can be reunited

2. The actual plotline with Zero Requiem
-UFN delegates are taking hostage, and are almost killed, only by chance they survive
-countless soldiers on both sides die due to the FLEIA bombs
-the fact that the world would unite after Lelouch's death is merely speculation... the Zero Requiem places all its bets on how the people will react. Even if they react positively to Lelouch's death, judging how they would react to the reappearance of Zero is impossible
-Lelouch has no insurance that something or someone will go astray after his death and foil the temporary peace hopefully brought about by the ZR.
-Nunnally loses Lelouch
-Suzaku is forced to kill his closest friend while still trying to shoulder the sin of killing his father and lose his identity

In the end, going along with the demands of the UFN was a viable plan as well and there were no solid reasons given for the rejection of it. There were no solid reasons given for why Schneizel could not have been the common enemy... after all, he was already viewed from a negative light from the beginning of the series by others for being apart of the Britannian Royal Family while they were busy conquering the world.

Bleh, all in all, I just think that the plot should have been guided in such a way that the Zero Requiem (and not necessarily the Zero Requiem that was shown in the show), was the ONLY viable option.

[Droplet]

@killbethy

The purpose of the zero requiem is to concentrate the world's hatred on Lelouche the tyrant then have Zero redeem himself by stabbing directly into the symbol of hatred that is Lelouche.

It was theatrical. It was epic. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I agree with you that there were MANY other viable options for peace than "0 Requiem". However, may I pose you a question? (in a lelouche like voice)

"What is a beautiful ending? Is it the most 'realistic' outcome? Is it an ending that you will agree with? Or is it something that moves you on a deeper level? "

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Last I checked he had to ditch his exploding Knightmare. It's only a victory in that he accomplished his strategic objective.

Umm no, he set his self destruct on his KMF and then ditched it.

Otherwise, when the Kallen punched it (with its normal arm >_>) you would see electric sparks right when it impacted.


It's a sad thing the Guren didn't explode as well. Stupid Tristan.

Don't you found it weird that even though the Mordred was heavily armored, 1 explosion heavily damaged it?

[don1235]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And maybe if Lelouch hadn't taken the world leaders hostage, Schneizel wouldn't have nuked Pendragon, but found some other way to oppose him.

Originally Posted by Droplet

@killbethy

The purpose of the zero requiem is to concentrate the world's hatred on Lelouche the tyrant then have Zero redeem himself by stabbing directly into the symbol of hatred that is Lelouche.

It was theatrical. It was epic. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I agree with you that there were MANY other viable options for peace than "0 Requiem". However, may I pose you a question? (in a lelouche like voice)

"What is a beautiful ending? Is it the most 'realistic' outcome? Is it an ending that you will agree with? Or is it something that moves you on a deeper level? "

A realistic ending at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace will be more appropriate. But Sunrise decide to make this into tragedy. Remind me of a sad Chinese love story with the female cast suffers from an incurable disease and did not tell her lover. Instead, she pushes her lover away, leaving her lover heartbroken at the end when he found out the truth. Sounds Familiar? Drama and tragedy.

[physics223]

Originally Posted by don1235

A realistic ending at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace will be more appropriate. But Sunrise decide to make this into tragedy. Remind me of a sad Chinese love story with the female cast suffers from an incurable disease and did not tell her lover. Instead, she pushes her lover away, leaving her lover heartbroken at the end when he found out the truth. Sounds Familiar? Drama and tragedy.

It's actually a Chinese classic. It's the Story of the Stone, or the Dream of the Red Chamber. Also, CC and Lelouch end up together, so it's not as tragic as it seems. It's tragic for the Kallen shippers, though, since Kallen would, most probably, never forget the existence of Lelouch in her entire life and would end up alone.

No, she's not going out with Gino, OK?

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by don1235

A realistic ending at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace will be more appropriate. But Sunrise decide to make this into tragedy. Remind me of a sad Chinese love story with the female cast suffers from an incurable disease and did not tell her lover. Instead, she pushes her lover away, leaving her lover heartbroken at the end when he found out the truth. Sounds Familiar? Drama and tragedy.

It's a matter of preference, I guess. I prefer the tragic dramatic while you prefer something, I presume, a little less sensational but arrives at the same end.

Well, anyway, since I wasn't satisfied with the LxC interaction through CG R2, I'm off to watch Spice and Wolf. ^^

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by nutype

I'm just curious, do you believe you live forever after you die as well?

yes or no.

?!?!?! Where the hell did that come from?!

I believe that there's 3 different places for the 'soul' to go after one's mortal body has been snuffed - The Everlasting (heaven), The Perfect Circle (neutral) and The Black Parade (hell). And I'm headed for The Perfect Circle. I sincerely hope that The Black Parade exists so that all emos, terrorists and pedophiles get stuck with each other for eternity.


@Sol - Well at least you're polite, as usual.

[D-KLAC]

look there were 2 TIME SKIPS on R2-25

besides that 2nd time skip "wtfh happen after zer0zaku "poke" lelouch" besides where the body & funeral?!

maybe that time skip has lelouch "secretly" changed his look & with c2 on the wagon to pull a "Spice and Wolf" with lelouch do a "Craft Lawrence" while c2 does a "Holo" (minus the voice)


cause TIME SKIPS are holding the answers

[DmonHiro]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Umm no, he set his self destruct on his KMF and then ditched it.

Otherwise, when the Kallen punched it (with its normal arm >_>) you would see electric sparks right when it impacted.


It's a sad thing the Guren didn't explode as well. Stupid Tristan.

Don't you found it weird that even though the Mordred was heavily armored, 1 explosion heavily damaged it?

Anya thought that Orange was dead, and deactivated her shields. She noticed there was another knightframe inside the sigfried too late, and turned the shileds back on too late. Half of it already penetrated

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by physics223

No, she's not going out with Gino, OK?

I think it'd make an hilarious setting for a third season: after years of carrying a torch, she gives in to Gino's persistence and starts going out with him. At the same time, the world starts going to pot, so she receives instructions for "Q-1". Dun dun dun!

[FlyingSheep]

I don't think he died, the title of the anime is CODE geass. Yet everyone only has the code OR the geass. I think that when his father died Lelouch snagged the code and became the first to obtain both the code and the geass. The code didn't belong to C.C. so he is the first to obtain Code Geass. So he probably is the guy driving the cart. I can't recall, but I don't think C.C. knew how to make the little swan out of paper, like when Lelouch did with his sister. Unless he magically spawned one from the world of C. Anyway, my vote is that he obtained Code Geass and now lives with C.C. as an immortal. Also, in order to obtain the code you have to die, like Charles. Charles died and when he popped back up, bam! Code madness. Now that Lelouch is dead... The code that he didn't get from C.C. but from Charles is with him. Not to mention he proved his acting skills with his sister, so taking a nap in front of thousands shouldn't be much of a burden. Not to mention he promised to kill C.C. if he knew he was going die in his little plot, why not kill C.C. and make up his promise?

As a critic, I think the anime's ending was above average. Nicely scripted and performed.

As a viewer, I think the ending was rather horrible. If you think about it, Lelouch was hated by all but like, three people in the end. First anime I've ever watched that involved the main character being hated by the world. I think Lelouch's ending was more like an emo ending, hate added with death and some more hate. Spoiler! If you haven't watched Witchblade or Air! don't read.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

In Witchblade the main character died with a happy ending defending the world! In Air, everyone just died. That anime needs to be burned, burned again, and then have its ashes burned. Witchblade's ending was to save lives. Even in Air, the deaths had SOME meaning. But with Lelouch, if he had really died, what guarantee did he have that the world would be better?

[Shaggy kun]

In the end we shall see maybe there planning a new arch or a movie.

[Droplet]

@FlyingSheep

you can use the spoiler tag for spoilers. ^^

Spoiler for Using Spoiler Tags:

(SPOILER="What your spoiler is about")Spoiler Content(/SPOILER) Don't forget to repalce the parentheses with brackets.

Edit: Somehow, I can tell that you dislike tragic endings when a non tragic one could be possible. ^^

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by don1235

A realistic ending at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace will be more appropriate. But Sunrise decide to make this into tragedy. Remind me of a sad Chinese love story with the female cast suffers from an incurable disease and did not tell her lover. Instead, she pushes her lover away, leaving her lover heartbroken at the end when he found out the truth. Sounds Familiar? Drama and tragedy.

Not in the slightest I feel, that kind of thing can only be made viable once the hatred of the world was consumed by him in this event, for that is one thing I think humans in general find easier to do, to destroy and hate versus just sitting down and talk. How many times have we all tried to talk it out and in the end it often simply resulted in us becoming even more divided? I feel this was far more realistic, in principle and logic at the least. Why couldn't Schneizel have been passed off as the person of hatred... part of that would be because had he actually succeeded he wouldn't have likely let himself be killed unlike with Lelouch and would continue his reign of terror with impunity... just really, I feel at the very least that this is the way in which peace must truly be enacted, one in which the very hearts of the people are stirred into action towards it on an individual basis >_>

[Last Sinner]

What on earth was emo about the ending....

Let's see... Lelouch managed to stop Charles from assimilating humanity into a single conscience. He stopped Schinezel from ruling the world with pure fear. He managed to give most of his friends a world they could live in without prejudice or hate...or less of it. He ended the cycle of Geass, he tore apart the tyrannical system of Britannia. But to do it, he had to lose everything he held dear or ever cared about, with the exception of C.C.. Everyone who abandoned him/wanted to stop him realised at the very end he was doing the right thing and that he was far better than any of them could ever be. He allowed himself to be seen as the villian in order to make things right. Which perhaps wasn't his initial intention, but along the way he realised he could make a permanent change for the better. He always knew he would end up with misfortune and be hated by everyone around him. But the fact he accepted that, resisted the evil that consumed his father and other Geass users and managed to fulfill C.C.'s silent wish is a testament to what a strong character he is. He is one heck of a tragic hero. Willing to be hated by humanity in order to give them a future. That is one heck of a final act. That's something that takes a lot of guts to do.

Tragic, yes. Emo, no. If you want an emo ending, go watch the series that is what Code Geass ended up being the anti of - Evangelion.

[FlyingSheep]

Oooo neat. Yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of tragic endings. Just because they come way to often. Anime people just like killing off their people, its crazy!

Ohh yeah, I thought of another thing! When Lelouch's sister... Nunnally I think... She got his memories, much like when lelouch touched C.C.; my guess is due to the code, sooooo what else could that tell you?

Spoiler for I'm a spoiler!:

spoiler!

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by killbethy

In the end, going along with the demands of the UFN was a viable plan as well and there were no solid reasons given for the rejection of it. There were no solid reasons given for why Schneizel could not have been the common enemy... after all, he was already viewed from a negative light from the beginning of the series by others for being apart of the Britannian Royal Family while they were busy conquering the world.

Bleh, all in all, I just think that the plot should have been guided in such a way that the Zero Requiem (and not necessarily the Zero Requiem that was shown in the show), was the ONLY viable option.

You mean your just pissed off because Lelouch had to die and Suzaku would live forever as a masked person.

Get the facts straight, those demands are NOT viable at all.

Separating your nation into smaller pieces and making your people 2nd class citizens is something you make IF you have leverage against the other guy.

The UFN has NO leverage against Lelouch. They never beated him in battle nor hold any strategic positions that they could use against him.

The whole objective was to create a kind world where everyone treated each other equally. Making your citizens 2nd class does not fit that criteria nor does breaking up your country make the citizens happy either.

If the UFN was smart they'd have rejected meeting him in the first place and instead draw up a treaty as eternal allies but then the problem comes in to dealing with Damacoles.

By throwing the UFN to Damacoles Schenziel was more or less restricted in his actions with FLEIJA. It gave him the badly needed time he needed to get a counter weapon up and ready.

If the UFN had joined with Lelouch then Schenziel would've just spammed his FLEIAs all over the world. Though if Lelouch had been able to geass Schenziel earlier....

[FlyingSheep]

Ok, saying it was emo was a bit much. I was just talking about Lelouch though, "if" he really did die, then it was probably just to die. That was what the emo part was about.

Just read someone's profile, I think it would be fine with a Disneyland/Mai-Hemi ending. I liked the ending to that, everyone was happy.

I also get the feeling my avatar doesn't fit here...

[Last Sinner]

Man, settle the flock down. And would some proper grammar kill you?

We're talking about a studio - Sunrise - that has copped out of tragic/unhappy endings and given some of the most sugar-coated/ridiculously reset-button/deus ex machina endings we've ever seen (Mai-Hime, anyone?!). They finally elarnt how to do a proper ending. But seriously if you can't handle an ending like this, I hate to see how real life tragedy hits you.

You make it sound like death is emo full stop. You've clearly missed the symbolism of the final episode. Lelouch made the ultimate sacrifice to make the world a better place. That's not emo, it's bloody inspiring. What would be emo/bleak is if he turned into Light 2.0 and turned the world into a cesspool evil. He did the exact opposite. He managed to do good amidst a series where everyone was doign anything but good. It's tragic that no one except C.C. could truly understand what he was trying to do and that humanity would never know. But those that got somewhat close to him figured it out at the end and were able to take some heart from that. Isn't that something to take some hope from?