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Mentar · 2011-01-21, 07:29

Thanks for the screenshots, they helped. Hmmm... I have to agree that they are making for a compelling argument. It does indeed look like the Grief Seed is Charlotte's after all. Alright.

Decagon: It's a bit complicated to explain for me (since in my main theory, Madoka already _was_ a MG before Homura became a MG and used her own wish to rip Madoka out of the meat grinder), but I think Madoka has no business there. In fact, by trying to return to become a MG, she's screwing others - especially Homura - over bigtime.

I suspect that the meat grinder works like this: A victim contracts with Kyubey for a wish and gains the soul gem. The soul gem contaminates _automatically_, even if the girl doesn't use magic. And if the gem is polluted too much, a MG turns into a witch herself. So, all MGs are forced to fight witches merely to stay alive. The bigger the soul gem, the higher is the spoilage, and so a powerful MG needs to collect more Grief Seeds to purify her gem and stay a MG. This also fits with what Miki said that MGs are in competition with each other: If your own soul gem is dangerously polluted, you won't accept if other MGs try for the same witch. And it's stable: If there's no witches to defeat (and so, no chance to purify your soul gem), soon there will be new witches by default pollution. Maybe - and this would be the most gruesome form, and it's obviously at least not unthinkable - it might even cause MGs to fight between each other.

It's like a drug racket, a cannibalizing pyramid scheme without escape. If my suspicion is mostly on target, the only correct decision is to STAY AWAY, or maybe try to somehow break up the racket. Not to join it.

Mef · 2011-01-21, 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnavion

Where are you guys getting the names of the witches from? The ones which flash during the episode are some fictional script right?

Yes, but fans deciphered it: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Deciphering_the_runes

Kanon · 2011-01-21, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by omimon

Did someone mentioned the fact that the OP for this episode was updated?

Which parts? I only noticed that the "self-yuri" scene was changed a bit. Madoka and her older self are now surrounded by a sphere, and the symmetrical docking is a lot more detailed :3

Arnavion · 2011-01-21, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mef

Yes, but fans deciphered it: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Deciphering_the_runes

Ooh thanks! Quite the fan effort there haha!

Fnights · 2011-01-21, 08:06

Imo they should have used a bloodbath for mami's death with chopped head, would have been more dramatic and realistic. And what's happen to Mami corpse? Disappear in the parallel world or completely eaten?

BaKaBaKaOtaKu · 2011-01-21, 08:27

i must say that i didn't see that happening. i was pretty much shocked!! but hell, MAMI!!! T_T a sexy badass gal, why must that happen? Oh, it must be kyubey's plan. it's all a conspiracy to lure the two in being a mahou shoujo! DX

that being said, man, i'm loving what this show can do. i see it the most interesting amongst this year's winter shows.(along with hourou musuko)

now,i better expect more deaths to come to avoid getting too shocked!

ac195 · 2011-01-21, 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar

I suspect that the meat grinder works like this: A victim contracts with Kyubey for a wish and gains the soul gem. The soul gem contaminates _automatically_, even if the girl doesn't use magic. And if the gem is polluted too much, a MG turns into a witch herself. So, all MGs are forced to fight witches merely to stay alive. The bigger the soul gem, the higher is the spoilage, and so a powerful MG needs to collect more Grief Seeds to purify her gem and stay a MG. This also fits with what Miki said that MGs are in competition with each other: If your own soul gem is dangerously polluted, you won't accept if other MGs try for the same witch. And it's stable: If there's no witches to defeat (and so, no chance to purify your soul gem), soon there will be new witches by default pollution. Maybe - and this would be the most gruesome form, and it's obviously at least not unthinkable - it might even cause MGs to fight between each other.

It's like a drug racket, a cannibalizing pyramid scheme without escape. If my suspicion is mostly on target, the only correct decision is to STAY AWAY, or maybe try to somehow break up the racket. Not to join it.

Considering the new ED animation... it seems to be the "most-likely" to happen scenario.

The only think I don't really like about the theory is why a Grief Seed would purify a MG Gem. If a Grief Seed is the result of a fallen MG, a corrupted gem, then why would it "purify" a MG Gem?... shouldn't a corrupted gem only further taint a pure gem and drive the MG closer to witch-dom? Unless, the gem in its original form isn't good or bad and is just a source of power... and its corruption is not based on whether or not you continue feeding it Grief Seeds, but it is instead a reflection of the users own inner feeling... and if they can continue believing in the "light" or get dragged down into the "dark." To be honest, if that was the case we might see a full revival at the end... minus the martyr Madoka...

That would be a happy but sad ending that would kinda placate both sides of the fandom right?

Mentar · 2011-01-21, 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac195

Considering the new ED animation... it seems to be the "most-likely" to happen scenario.

The only think I don't really like about the theory is why a Grief Seed would purify a MG Gem. If a Grief Seed is the result of a fallen MG, a corrupted gem, then why would it "purify" a MG Gem?... shouldn't a corrupted gem only further taint a pure gem and drive the MG closer to witch-dom?

Well, we've seen how it worked in ep2. We've seen how some darkness was drawn out of the soul gem and transferred into the Grief Seed.

In fact, this is what I consider to be among the strongest evidence for my "witches are fallen magical girls" theory: This darkness seems to be the interdependency between MGs and witches: Witches have too much of it, MGs need to get rid of it.

Random Wanderer · 2011-01-21, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, we've seen how it worked in ep2. We've seen how some darkness was drawn out of the soul gem and transferred into the Grief Seed.

In fact, this is what I consider to be among the strongest evidence for my "witches are fallen magical girls" theory: This darkness seems to be the interdependency between MGs and witches: Witches have too much of it, MGs need to get rid of it.

Get rid of it by tainting the witch's soul further. That's not exactly a good thing.

kimpleng · 2011-01-21, 09:43

This ep 3 really unexpected. I loss at word.
So I will jus post a pic.

Mentar · 2011-01-21, 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Get rid of it by tainting the witch's soul further. That's not exactly a good thing.

They can only do it after the witch is _dead_, remember?

Random Wanderer · 2011-01-21, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar

They can only do it after the witch is _dead_, remember?

If souls are being considered an immortal existance beyond just a physical life, then adding corruption to a witches soul could still be seen as a terrible thing. In the Faustian-Christian tradition, a soul that existed beyond death was a major theme, with the person being either tormented in hell or living in paradise in Heaven. Further tainting a witches soul could be sending them further into hell, adding even more horror to their afterlife. A terrible thing, if these truly were mostly innocent girls whose only crime was to be tricked into a contract by Kyubey.

Mentar · 2011-01-21, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

If souls are being considered an immortal existance beyond just a physical life, then adding corruption to a witches soul could still be seen as a terrible thing. In the Faustian-Christian tradition, a soul that existed beyond death was a major theme, with the person being either tormented in hell or living in paradise in Heaven. Further tainting a witches soul could be sending them further into hell, adding even more horror to their afterlife. A terrible thing, if these truly were mostly innocent girls whose only crime was to be tricked into a contract by Kyubey.

Hey, this whole racket is set up and run by the _devil_. Kyubey represents Mephisto in "Faust", and he's the one tempting the poor souls. Fulfillment of wishes in exchange for the soul. So, if adding corruption would push her into hell more, then Kyubey is doing a great job. This is exactly what he WANTS, you know?

Random Wanderer · 2011-01-21, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hey, this whole racket is set up and run by the _devil_. Kyubey represents Mephisto in "Faust", and he's the one tempting the poor souls. Fulfillment of wishes in exchange for the soul. So, if adding corruption would push her into hell more, then Kyubey is doing a great job. This is exactly what he WANTS, you know?

Oh, I'm not arguing with that. I'm sure, if we're correct about Kyubey (I still have to qualify that because we still don't REALLY know for sure, however likely it's becoming), that Kyubey's ecstatic about the whole thing. But it's still a horrible, evil thing to do. If the girls knew that was happening, I don't think they'd be as willing to use the grief seeds as they have been.

Genten · 2011-01-21, 10:34

Huh.

Spoiler for Episode Three:

They really killed of Mami, didn't they? I don't believe Madoka will wish her back to life: not only would that destroy a perfect emotionally shocking death scene but, a) we don't know that you can bring people back to life, b) even if you could wish someone back to life there is no guarentee that she would remember Madoka, Sayaka, or Kyubey, or even have any magical powers herself, and c) I don't think Mami would want to be brought back to life. She sure didn't seem to happy about becoming a magical girl and her explanation to Madoka about 'well, I'd rather be a magical girl than be dead' seemed to be a line to reassure herself about her decision, not verify that she would prefer one option over the other. That begs the question: what could possible be worse than death when you become a magical girl?

Besides Mami's death, though, there are some other important tidbits revealed in this episode. The first few are, obviously, about Mami and her character. The biggest reveal is how she became a magical girl: she was dying in either a car crash or some other accident and Kyubey suddenly, out of nowhere, appears and makes her into a magical girl. Mami says she didn't get a choice in this matter: in fact, she seems to wish that Kyubey had left her alone to die. Why? Was it simply the fact that she was forced into a certain destiny or was she reflecting now that she's had so much experiance as a magical girl?

The next thing I'm going to point to is the reveal that Mami and Homura have some history that goes beyond enemy context. From their conversation, they were probably friends at some point: In fact, Mami may have been Homura's mentor, just as she was to Madoka and Sayaka. We don't know how long Homura has been a magical girl so this may have actually happened. The split between the two could have been over any number of things: the reason I'm most fond of is that Homura is angry at Mami for coercing her to become a magical girl. It would make sense: obviously, both Mami and Homura detest the fact that they are magical girls. Homura, terrified that there is no way out once she becomes a magical girl, splits from Mami in anger and makes it her life goal to stop other people from becoming magical girls.

This would explain Homura's reasons for chasing away Madoka, who has a lot of power. I'll get into why she, and the other characters, ignore Sayaka later. Homura knows that Madoka has a lot of latent talent. This could be similar to what Mami/Kyubey told her, which convinced her to become a magical girl. Instead of chasing away competition, which I never thought was Homura's goal in the first place (why would she save Madoka/Sayaka if she didn't want them around?), she is chasing away someone from a path that could ruin their life. Perhaps this is the ultimate blessing from Mami's death: her horrific demise could force the girls to back track on their magical girl plans. Whether or not that is the way Homura views it or if it was Mami's intentions I am unsure. It probably won't work, regardless.

And what about the person who is rapidly becoming my favorite character, Sayaka? She seems to be largely ignored by everyone: Mami, Kyubey, Homura, and even Madoka to some extent. Notice how Mami and Madoka stopped looking for Sayaka to have a conversation that could easily be had while looking for her? Mami seems to ignore Sayaka as well: she says they will eat cake to celebrate the magical duo. Certainly, Sayaka hasn't told Mami her wish. But Mami seemed to shoot her down when she had an idea for a wish in the first place. She seems to except Madoka's wish, which is just as naive as Sayaka's, as fine and already places her as a magical girl.

Sayaka is going to be one of those characters that people forget about until she makes an explosion later on in the series. The way she is written and the way other characters think about her, as merely an add-on to Madoka, lead me to think this way. I don't think it's impossible that Sayaka could become a villain: but it wouldn't be Mami's death that drove her to this path. It would either be a dissonance with Madoka or with Kamijou. She's certainly a more complex character than she lets on and I'm interested in seeing her progress throughout the series.

But I'm not done ranting yet! The last thing I want to touch on is Homura's comment to Mami along the lines of: you're forcing them to join this horrible game. Wait, what? Mami explained to Madoka and Sayaka that the point of being a magical girl is just to help people: this is easily what she and Kyubey tell possible recruits and it could be the same story she fed Homura. Homura has figured out this isn't true: which begs the question what the general agenda of the contracter's is. What are they aiming for? Kyubey certainly has the most mysteries out of any character in this show and I look forward to seeing his character being revealed. I've already assumed that he is used to the death of magical girls and is unaffected by Mami's death.

ac195 · 2011-01-21, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I don't think they'd be as willing to use the grief seeds as they have been.

I think they'd be even more willing to use those Grief Seeds if they knew that was a fate which they would suffer if they didn't keep feeding their own gems/seeds.

Damn, and I really wanted a happy ending... I seriously don't need a Mahou Shoujo show reminding me what a shi*ty world we live in.

Hypernova · 2011-01-21, 11:01

I just realised:
"Chocolate flavor" room
"Charlotte"

They were invited to Charlotte's Demonic Chocolate Factory!

BaKaBaKaOtaKu · 2011-01-21, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac195

Damn, and I really wanted a happy ending... I seriously don't need a Mahou Shoujo show reminding me what a shi*ty world we live in.

man,now i'm also reminded how i'm going to suffer in hell since THE END IS NEAR! uggh. yeah,too pessimistic i guess. DX but srsly, it's either a few would remain alive in madoka or none at all. total rupture. XD

panzerfan · 2011-01-21, 11:09

Ahh Genten, I have the same question too. Mephistopheles Kyubey from how it seems, is playing a game, but of what sort? To whom has Mephistopheles wagered? And with what did he wager with? We've yet really seen the Prolog im Himmel, as ironic as it is...

Sayaka is a character that I do like. She is shown to be one that is open to critical thinking time and time again. I hope that she can actually remain out of the radar enough to make more acute observations about the figures that she finds herself facing...

Hypernova · 2011-01-21, 11:18

Madoka is now #1 in pre-order in the anime category and #2 overall behind Star Wars.

If you look at the trend graphs thing really took off after ep3:
http://www.rankbank.net/amaran/histo...sin=B004INGZAE

View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 03 Rating
Perfect 10	118	56.19%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	58	27.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	23	10.95%
7 out of 10 : Good	4	1.90%
6 out of 10 : Average	2	0.95%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	1	0.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor	0	0%
3 out of 10 : Bad	1	0.48%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	1	0.48%
1 out of 10 : Painful	2	0.95%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll

2011-01-21, 09:43	Link #170
kimpleng Lurker Join Date: Feb 2010	This ep 3 really unexpected. I loss at word. So I will jus post a pic. Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-01-23 at 07:58. Reason: Changed image code

2011-01-21, 10:34	Link #175
Genten has a custom user title Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: In a Mitten Age: 29	Huh. Spoiler for Episode Three: They really killed of Mami, didn't they? I don't believe Madoka will wish her back to life: not only would that destroy a perfect emotionally shocking death scene but, a) we don't know that you can bring people back to life, b) even if you could wish someone back to life there is no guarentee that she would remember Madoka, Sayaka, or Kyubey, or even have any magical powers herself, and c) I don't think Mami would want to be brought back to life. She sure didn't seem to happy about becoming a magical girl and her explanation to Madoka about 'well, I'd rather be a magical girl than be dead' seemed to be a line to reassure herself about her decision, not verify that she would prefer one option over the other. That begs the question: what could possible be worse than death when you become a magical girl? Besides Mami's death, though, there are some other important tidbits revealed in this episode. The first few are, obviously, about Mami and her character. The biggest reveal is how she became a magical girl: she was dying in either a car crash or some other accident and Kyubey suddenly, out of nowhere, appears and makes her into a magical girl. Mami says she didn't get a choice in this matter: in fact, she seems to wish that Kyubey had left her alone to die. Why? Was it simply the fact that she was forced into a certain destiny or was she reflecting now that she's had so much experiance as a magical girl? The next thing I'm going to point to is the reveal that Mami and Homura have some history that goes beyond enemy context. From their conversation, they were probably friends at some point: In fact, Mami may have been Homura's mentor, just as she was to Madoka and Sayaka. We don't know how long Homura has been a magical girl so this may have actually happened. The split between the two could have been over any number of things: the reason I'm most fond of is that Homura is angry at Mami for coercing her to become a magical girl. It would make sense: obviously, both Mami and Homura detest the fact that they are magical girls. Homura, terrified that there is no way out once she becomes a magical girl, splits from Mami in anger and makes it her life goal to stop other people from becoming magical girls. This would explain Homura's reasons for chasing away Madoka, who has a lot of power. I'll get into why she, and the other characters, ignore Sayaka later. Homura knows that Madoka has a lot of latent talent. This could be similar to what Mami/Kyubey told her, which convinced her to become a magical girl. Instead of chasing away competition, which I never thought was Homura's goal in the first place (why would she save Madoka/Sayaka if she didn't want them around?), she is chasing away someone from a path that could ruin their life. Perhaps this is the ultimate blessing from Mami's death: her horrific demise could force the girls to back track on their magical girl plans. Whether or not that is the way Homura views it or if it was Mami's intentions I am unsure. It probably won't work, regardless. And what about the person who is rapidly becoming my favorite character, Sayaka? She seems to be largely ignored by everyone: Mami, Kyubey, Homura, and even Madoka to some extent. Notice how Mami and Madoka stopped looking for Sayaka to have a conversation that could easily be had while looking for her? Mami seems to ignore Sayaka as well: she says they will eat cake to celebrate the magical duo. Certainly, Sayaka hasn't told Mami her wish. But Mami seemed to shoot her down when she had an idea for a wish in the first place. She seems to except Madoka's wish, which is just as naive as Sayaka's, as fine and already places her as a magical girl. Sayaka is going to be one of those characters that people forget about until she makes an explosion later on in the series. The way she is written and the way other characters think about her, as merely an add-on to Madoka, lead me to think this way. I don't think it's impossible that Sayaka could become a villain: but it wouldn't be Mami's death that drove her to this path. It would either be a dissonance with Madoka or with Kamijou. She's certainly a more complex character than she lets on and I'm interested in seeing her progress throughout the series. But I'm not done ranting yet! The last thing I want to touch on is Homura's comment to Mami along the lines of: you're forcing them to join this horrible game. Wait, what? Mami explained to Madoka and Sayaka that the point of being a magical girl is just to help people: this is easily what she and Kyubey tell possible recruits and it could be the same story she fed Homura. Homura has figured out this isn't true: which begs the question what the general agenda of the contracter's is. What are they aiming for? Kyubey certainly has the most mysteries out of any character in this show and I look forward to seeing his character being revealed. I've already assumed that he is used to the death of magical girls and is unaffected by Mami's death. __________________

2011-01-21, 11:09	Link #179
panzerfan Name means little... Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2004	Ahh Genten, I have the same question too. Mephistopheles Kyubey from how it seems, is playing a game, but of what sort? To whom has Mephistopheles wagered? And with what did he wager with? We've yet really seen the Prolog im Himmel, as ironic as it is... Sayaka is a character that I do like. She is shown to be one that is open to critical thinking time and time again. I hope that she can actually remain out of the radar enough to make more acute observations about the figures that she finds herself facing... __________________ It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality. It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori

2011-01-21, 07:29	Link #161
Mentar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hamburg Age: 54	Thanks for the screenshots, they helped. Hmmm... I have to agree that they are making for a compelling argument. It does indeed look like the Grief Seed is Charlotte's after all. Alright. Decagon: It's a bit complicated to explain for me (since in my main theory, Madoka already _was_ a MG before Homura became a MG and used her own wish to rip Madoka out of the meat grinder), but I think Madoka has no business there. In fact, by trying to return to become a MG, she's screwing others - especially Homura - over bigtime. I suspect that the meat grinder works like this: A victim contracts with Kyubey for a wish and gains the soul gem. The soul gem contaminates _automatically_, even if the girl doesn't use magic. And if the gem is polluted too much, a MG turns into a witch herself. So, all MGs are forced to fight witches merely to stay alive. The bigger the soul gem, the higher is the spoilage, and so a powerful MG needs to collect more Grief Seeds to purify her gem and stay a MG. This also fits with what Miki said that MGs are in competition with each other: If your own soul gem is dangerously polluted, you won't accept if other MGs try for the same witch. And it's stable: If there's no witches to defeat (and so, no chance to purify your soul gem), soon there will be new witches by default pollution. Maybe - and this would be the most gruesome form, and it's obviously at least not unthinkable - it might even cause MGs to fight between each other. It's like a drug racket, a cannibalizing pyramid scheme without escape. If my suspicion is mostly on target, the only correct decision is to STAY AWAY, or maybe try to somehow break up the racket. Not to join it.

2011-01-21, 08:06	Link #165
Fnights Yoku dekimashita! Join Date: Jun 2006	Imo they should have used a bloodbath for mami's death with chopped head, would have been more dramatic and realistic. And what's happen to Mami corpse? Disappear in the parallel world or completely eaten?

2011-01-21, 08:27	Link #166
BaKaBaKaOtaKu Stupidity is Bliss. Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In Hancock's Heart	i must say that i didn't see that happening. i was pretty much shocked!! but hell, MAMI!!! T_T a sexy badass gal, why must that happen? Oh, it must be kyubey's plan. it's all a conspiracy to lure the two in being a mahou shoujo! DX that being said, man, i'm loving what this show can do. i see it the most interesting amongst this year's winter shows.(along with hourou musuko) now,i better expect more deaths to come to avoid getting too shocked!

2011-01-21, 11:01	Link #177
Hypernova Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan Age: 38	I just realised: "Chocolate flavor" room "Charlotte" They were invited to Charlotte's Demonic Chocolate Factory!

2011-01-21, 11:18	Link #180
Hypernova Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan Age: 38	Madoka is now #1 in pre-order in the anime category and #2 overall behind Star Wars. If you look at the trend graphs thing really took off after ep3: http://www.rankbank.net/amaran/histo...sin=B004INGZAE