[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[rogerpepitone]

In the manga, it's mentioned that Nanjo, Jessica, George, and Kumasawa were attending to Kanon, and that he was hemorrhaging badly.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Escargotage

So, I was re-reading the ending of Episode 2, with Rosa-Musou and I was thinking of the theory that the "goat-heads" were really a landslide and the butterflies were flames. I got to thinking, "Why would Rosa be stupid enough to fire bullets into a landslide to try and stop it?" and a thought came to me. Is it at all possible for there to have been a gas leak inside of the mansion that would cause the family to become delusional from brain damage? Thus making it entirely plausible for her to see them as such?

Then there should be hints pointing to it or it would be breaking the knox rules, wouldn't it?

[ameskitty]

You know what, somebody attacking him makes me think of something - maybe he was non-lethally attacked and then killed later by either Nanjo or Jessica.

It wouldn't even have to be on purpose - maybe Nanjo gave him a sedative but it ended up being too strong or Jessica, by shaking him or something, inadvertently aggravated his wound to the point where it was fatal. Maybe him pulling the weapon out and causing himself to bleed so heavily counts as this - it wouldn't be suicide (since in both languages suicide has to be intentional, I think) but he would've been his own killer.

Far-fetched, but it just came to mind.

There's also the possibility of a surviving person thought dead transcending both descriptors, but that's kind of iffy :/. I'm not a big fan of that sort of wordplay. Then again, him being non-lethally attacked by people who couldn't have killed him is also stretching words a bit. If it wasn't on purpose it also kind of pushes the "accident" text.

If he did die, I think it's much simpler to say he died in a trap - that was never denied, despite the amount of times Battler postulated it, and the fact that there was apparently a door slam luring him makes it likely.

Speaking of EP6 possibly covering him a lot, I won't be surprised if EP6 makes him totally innocent, to be honest. He's too conveniently suspicious for me (as in he's both suspicious in actions and he's constantly in situations where he could've been the killer). And yes, I've said this 1000 times, but really I'd be disappointed if he were the culprit (and not even remotely because I like him as a character :/).

[Raneh]

I agree, I don't think he's the mastermind. However, there are many suspicious and obscure things in his actions and situation, mainly what happens to him/his corpse in almost every episode. There is surely something, but it might not be what we're looking for.

[Megaolix]

Checked the Ange part about the mansion. To say something happened to it because Ange couldn't see the mansion from where she was is wrong, because the island have been left to the wind and rain for 12 years. This is more than enough time in my opinion.

Also, if there had been something like a landslide, an explosion or a fire, there would be a definite mention of it, consider everyone we saw in Ange's world had no clue on what truly happened. And yet nothing like that was advanced.

I've always disliked that point in the first place, I dislike it even more after checking.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Checked the Ange part about the mansion. To say that because she couldn't see the mansion from where she was is wrong, because the island have been left to the wind and rain for 12 years. This is more than enough time in my opinion.

Hmm, wasn't there something said about the mansion being torn down or something? I can't find anything, but it's a likely possibility given what happened there.

Originally Posted by Raneh

I agree, I don't think he's the mastermind. However, there are many suspicious and obscure things in his actions and situation, mainly what happens to him/his corpse in almost every episode. There is surely something, but it might not be what we're looking for.

Exactly. For example, he could be actively going after the culprit or desperately trying to hide something completely different (Kinzo's death comes to mind).

And if I think about it again, he could've simply gone into a coma. All they really said was that he "never regained consciousness".

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Also, if there had been something like a landslide, an explosion or a fire, there would be a definite mention of it, consider everyone we saw in Ange's world had no clue on what truly happened. And yet nothing like that was advanced.

Just by rebuking the landslide, or explosion or a fire is not enough, you need to offer something to explain what killed Battler in the end of EP4 and what killed everyone in EP2

[Renall]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Exactly. For example, he could be actively going after the culprit or desperately trying to hide something completely different (Kinzo's death comes to mind).

His behavior on the 4th suggests he is spying on people for some purpose. Not much sense in doing that if you've got a carefully laid-out murder plan already in place, but certainly a suspicious set of actions. However, it seems to speak more to someone investigating than plotting to kill. False-Kanon's actions in ep2 might likewise kind of seem that way, given that he could perhaps have a totally legitimate reason to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa (if they were involved in some attack he witnessed, such as the killing of Jessica).

I think a huge part of the game, and often overlooked, is everyone's actions on the 4th. Kanon and Nanjo are among the people basically completely unaccounted-for for large chunks of the day. What are they up to?

[ameskitty]

Almost all of the magic scenes show him openly offensive against Beatrice, too, and if we go with the general feeling that they show some grain of truth, you can interpret this as him actively trying to defend the people he cares about (heck, everybody) from the culprit.

Maybe he knows who the culprit is but isn't sure what they're going to do/how they're going to do it/if they're even going to do it. How he knows this and more importantly why he's keeping silent would be the question were this the case. (fear of retaliation? some sort of attachment to the culprit when they're not being a lunatic killer? )

Beatrice seems to enjoy "catching" and "torturing" him, too, so it's pretty likely that the culprit might also has some sort of awareness that they're being followed.

Also note how in EP 5 he seemed kind of pissed when the family forced him and Shannon to sit down and talk about life. Seems like he had better things to do...

Unfortunately I've never really noticed him spying on anybody in particular - so a lot of the things I keep speculating about him aren't really worth much :/. Kanon in general seems like such a big hint but too much is missing to make theories off of him. Unless I'm missing something obvious...

[artirian]

Originally Posted by Renall

His behavior on the 4th suggests he is spying on people for some purpose. Not much sense in doing that if you've got a carefully laid-out murder plan already in place, but certainly a suspicious set of actions. However, it seems to speak more to someone investigating than plotting to kill. False-Kanon's actions in ep2 might likewise kind of seem that way, given that he could perhaps have a totally legitimate reason to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa (if they were involved in some attack he witnessed, such as the killing of Jessica).

I think a huge part of the game, and often overlooked, is everyone's actions on the 4th. Kanon and Nanjo are among the people basically completely unaccounted-for for large chunks of the day. What are they up to?

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Almost all of the magic scenes show him openly offensive against Beatrice, too, and if we go with the general feeling that they show some grain of truth, you can interpret this as him actively trying to defend the people he cares about (heck, everybody) from the culprit.

Maybe he knows who the culprit is but isn't sure what they're going to do/how they're going to do it/if they're even going to do it. How he knows this and more importantly why he's keeping silent would be the question were this the case. (fear of retaliation? some sort of attachment to the culprit when they're not being a lunatic killer? )

Beatrice seems to enjoy "catching" and "torturing" him, too, so it's pretty likely that the culprit might also has some sort of awareness that they're being followed.

Also note how in EP 5 he seemed kind of pissed when the family forced him and Shannon to sit down and talk about life. Seems like he had better things to do...

Unfortunately I've never really noticed him spying on anybody in particular - so a lot of the things I keep speculating about him aren't really worth much :/. Kanon in general seems like such a big hint but too much is missing to make theories off of him. Unless I'm missing something obvious...

Spoiler for Something that it´s disturbing me:

Possible "Rule Z": In all the games, Kanon does a mistake thinking about someone as the main culprit/mastermind. Probably, clear examples would be Natsuhi in EP1 and Rosa in EP2. Well, maybe it´s as Saw, just the letters and phone calls make the difference XD.

Oh, I almost forgot, I´m newbie XD.

[ameskitty]

Hmm, if you want to theorize that, I'd alter that a bit and say that Kanon will always go after the culprit (but get killed in the process, at least so far), unless he is immediately killed in the first twilight or he is not given an opportunity to pursue.

The fact that his body is missing in 2 and 4 means that he likely got close to the correct culprit, as the culprit pretty much has to be somebody who's sneaking around in strange places (like the well, perhaps) and, if they can say, throw his body off a window onto the roof (what I think happened in EP2) and make him look like the culprit, what better revenge for trying to stop them? What he did in EP1 is essentially plain vanilla pursuing the culprit .

I don't see how he could be getting the culprit wrong (at least in all episodes), but the idea of a rule revolving around him and the culprit is a good shot . Things don't tend to stay consistent across episodes and it's important to notice when they do.

[Kit]

Speaking about consistency - I dunno if this means anything, but in every episode (at least, up to 4) where Shannon is NOT killed in the first twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi always killed by first twilight, and whenever Shannon IS killed in the first twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi always live through it.

In episode 1: Shannon is killed, Eva and Hideyoshi survive till the second twilight.
In episode 2: Eva and Hideyoshi are killed, Shanon and George survives.
In episode 3: Shannon and all servants killed in first twilight. Eva survives the game.
In episode 4: Eva and Hideyoshi killed in first twilight by Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon imprisoned.

I am unsure if this pattern continues onto episode 5...or if it means anything at all xD but thought I'd point it out.

Another thing that bothers me is how much of an asset Kyrie is in every game where she isn't killed in the first twilight. In episode 3, she is the one who sets everyone on the track of solving the epitaph, and then luring Hideyoshi out of the mansion, and in episode 4, she is the one who manages to correctly deduce that Kinzo is already dead, and then trap Krauss in her contract...The tidbit about the stakes being manufactured in USA also directs attention at Kyrie and Rudolf, especially since the only stake recovered from episode 4 is Mammon, the stake Kyrie was stabbed with, not to mention th introduction of the rest of her family...I just don't know what to make of it!

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kit

Another thing that bothers me is how much of an asset Kyrie is in every game where she isn't killed in the first twilight. In episode 3, she is the one who sets everyone on the track of solving the epitaph, and then luring Hideyoshi out of the mansion, and in episode 4, she is the one who manages to correctly deduce that Kinzo is already dead, and then trap Krauss in her contract...The tidbit about the stakes being manufactured in USA also directs attention at Kyrie and Rudolf, especially since the only stake recovered from episode 4 is Mammon, the stake Kyrie was stabbed with, not to mention th introduction of the rest of her family...I just don't know what to make of it!

The Mammon was recovered is easy, obviously Kyrie did not die in the end of EP3 and after she shot Nanjo, she perished shortly afterwards. Then Eva noticed that this "corpse" moved!! And obviously she quickly find out that she just die not long ago. She was certain that she was the one who wrote the number and most importantly, the person who killed George!! In fury, she probably plugged the stake on Kyrie's body to ...! You know what I mean.

And she did not tell Ange about it even though she knew who now was the Beatrice. Apparently not letting Ange know the truth is the cruelest revenge of all...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kit

*snip*

In addition to that, Kanon and Kumasawa always outlive Hideyoshi, and Jessica only survives past the first two twilights if Shannon dies in the first one.

It's by finding little patterns like this that should tell us who died in Ep5... and the order of deaths in Ep4.

Originally Posted by ijriims

And she did not tell Ange about it even though she knew who now was the Beatrice.

Just because Kyrie shoots Nanjo doesn't mean at all that's she's Beatrice... for instance, Nanjo and Eva are really the only ones capable of committing most of the murders in Ep3 (since they're away from everyone else most of the time), and since Ange believes Eva isn't the killer (I think we can trust her judgment) it has to be Nanjo.

Simply put, Nanjo killed everyone except Jessica, Eva, Battler, and himself. He was killed by a vengeful Kyrie, who died of her stomach wound shortly thereafter, Battler was killed by an Eva pushed too far, and Jessica was killed by whatever happens at midnight.

(As for how Nanjo gets around so fast and without anyone noticing... isn't there a tunnel system under Rokkenjima? >_> We know this for almost a fact...)

There, that's Ep3 for you. <_<

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

There, that's Ep3 for you. <_<

I don't see how and why Nanjo will write the number on the door.

Beatrice knew the number, and Beatrice should be female. So it could only be Jessica, Kyrie and Eva who wrote the number. Probably it was Jessica's doing, she must have sneaked behind Nanjo and witnessed the murder of George by Nanjo. Then she painted the number on the door.

An amazing feat concerning his age and fitness. Constantly running between the guest house and the mansion...

A pretty evil doctor, wasn't he?

As for why Nanjo could go all the troubles to kill all the people on the island in EP3. He wanted money, didn't he? So he killed all the people as Jessica promised her she would give him the gold after he killed everyone on the island.

As for why he don't kill all the people in other episodes, actually he was the culprit . He performed all the murdering throughout EP1-4. Just that he was manipulated by Jessica behind the scene. And I have to add Kanon as well or no one would kill Nanjo in EP1. And Genji needed to be included as well, or no one killed Nanjo in EP2 (Wait, he must have suicide after he slaughtered everyone, so Genji was not needed as well. Good)


And the first thing for me to do if all the above was true is to erase Umineko from my computer.

[MeoTwister5]

Considering that Kinzo felt so much closer to Nanjo and Genji more than his own family, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are much more knowledgable about the island than they let appear.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ijriims

I don't want to argue with you too much, but I don't see how and why Nanjo will write the number on the door.

Beatrice knew the number, and Beatrice should be female. So it could only be Jessica, Kyrie and Eva who wrote the number. I think you probably think it was Jessica's doing...

I have no answer for "who wrote the numbers", and it could very well have been Kyrie, but I'd prefer to think it was someone whose family didn't get one of the 'compensation' letters. (Also, I think Shannon is Beatrice, but eh.)

It makes no difference in regards to who killed who, really...

Originally Posted by ijriims

As to why Nanjo could go all the troubles to kill all the people on the island. I don't know.

Pretty evil doctor, wasn't he?

I've had this suspicion for a while now that Nanjo was responsible for Kinzo's demise, as well, but... it's simply because we know nothing about Nanjo that convinces me that he has something really bad going on in his past.

Also, he's on a similar level of suspicion as the servants, never dies in a first twilight, and sports an evil mustache. >_>

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Considering that Kinzo felt so much closer to Nanjo and Genji more than his own family, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are much more knowledgable about the island than they let appear.

Goldsmith did mention that Nanjo has been in Kuwadorian's basement (part of that tunnel system).

[Renall]

There are only three possible candidates for the person who wrote the numbers:

1) The person who actually set up the accounts.

2) One of the people to be compensated, on the assumption they knew the code that was to be sent to their relatives.

3) Someone who killed one of the people above and found some sort of evidence of the numbers on their person, and chose to write it on the door.

In the case of #1, it's a message from the account-holder to an accomplice who would recognize the meaning of the numbers. In #2's case, it could be a message to the person who set up the accounts (either identifying themselves as alive or perhaps passing some other message along, like "I killed George" or "I'm out of your plan"). In #3's case, it depends who was killed. If #1 was killed by #3, it could be an attempt to frighten #1's accomplices. If #2 was killed by #3, it could be meant as a message to #1 ("I know what you're up to, and to prove it I killed George").

This suggests to me that two people actively aware of the accounts were still alive at the time the numbers were written, or the person who wrote the numbers assumed another person was alive who knew what they meant. I am firmly convinced that Eva and Battler were not the intended recipients of the message, as neither knew what the numbers meant (and Eva writing them down suggests she was planning to figure out what they were later, not that she already knew). Ironically, Eva and Battler may nevertheless have been the only people to see the message for any length of time necessary to think about what it meant, unless George or Nanjo saw it before that.

So then: Who wrote the numbers? And who was it for?

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I think I got the Eva and Hideyoshi room all wrong before. I was looking at Ep 2 and Battler solved the closed room of the Chapel and I thought what if this solution is applicable to alot of other rooms. For example:

The killer knocked on the door to Eva and Hideyoshi's room and gained entry by convincing them he/she was a friend or some other means. Eva probably thought the killer was someone she could trust. Let the killer in, he/she proceeded to either kill or incapacitate both Eva and Hideyoshi. The killer locked the chain and door, then proceeded to wait. Genji opened the door after hearing no response, after confirming the chain was locked he left with Kanon ordering him to cut the chain. After hearing this the killer commenced with his/her plan. Either by finishing off Eva and Hideyoshi or placing their bodies in the correct positions. After this the killer began to rig the chain rather than cut it. By means such as tape or magnets etc the chain was held in place giving the illusion of a closed room. A secret 2nd action after the initial discovery of the locked room.

I thought of this after I pondered the chapel's solution. That room wasn't a closed room, there was a secret action X that gave the illusion of a closed room. In the Chapel Beatrice gave the key to Maria that started the trick. Second after the murders Beatrice retrieved the key locked the chapel and returned the key this is the action X I am so keen on at the moment. Finally the third event the discovery of the door. I began to think what if it's like this for most if not all solutions. A primary action that sets in motion the closed room. The second and most vital action X which is the setting up of the closed room's illusion by various means. And the third unintentional action by someone other than the killer, discovery in the Chapel's case or in the case of Eva's room the cutting of the lock which compromises the chain and prevent the method from being discovered.

The only difference between my solution and Battler's with the chapel is time. Mine started at the discovery of the Closed Room while Battler's began with the Letter of Beatrice.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

In addition to that, Kanon and Kumasawa always outlive Hideyoshi

Hideyoshi outlives both of them in episode 3.

-----

Pairs of people such that exactly one dies at the first twilight (eps 1-4):
Rudolf & (Kanon, Kumasawa, Kinzo)
(Krauss, Kyrie) & Genji
(Shannon, Gohda) & (Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi)

Pairs of people such that at least one, and sometimes both, dies at the first twilight (eps 1-4):
Rudolf & (Genji, Gohda, Shannon)

Spoiler for Updating above for episode 5:

Exactly one:
(Krauss, Kyrie) & Genji
(Shannon, Gohda) & (Hideyoshi)

At least one:
Rudolf & Genji

Not that this necessarily means anything; these are still within the bounds of chance. (Out of 18 people, there are 18*17/2 == 153 different pairs. There are 6*12 == 72 pairs with exactly one surviving the first twilight; 6*5/2 == 15 pairs with neither surviving the first twilight; 12*11/2 == 66 pairs with both surviving the first twilight. If there's no pattern to who dies at the first twilight, on average, there will be 153*(72/153)^2 ~= 34 pairs with exactly one dying left after episode 2, ~ 16 pairs after episode 3, ~7 pairs after episode 4, and ~4 pairs left after episode 5.

As for pairs of "A never predeceases B": (going by the order of twilights, with closely spaced deaths as simultaneous):
Kinzo & Shannon
Kinzo & Gohda
Krauss & Rudolf
Natsuhi & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Natsuhi
Jessica & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Rudolf
Nanjo & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Rudolf
Nanjo & Shannon
Nanjo & Kanon
Nanjo & Kumasawa
Eva & Hideyoshi
Eva & Rudolf
Hideyoshi & Rudolf
George & Natsuhi
George & Hideyoshi
George & Rudolf
Kyrie & Rudolf
Battler & (all but Jessica and Eva)
Maria & (Kinzo, Rosa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa)
Gohda & Shannon
Kumasawa & Shannon
Kumasawa & Gohda

Spoiler for Updated for the first twilight of episode 5:

Kinzo & Shannon
Kinzo & Gohda
Krauss & Rudolf
Natsuhi & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Rudolf
Nanjo & Shannon
Nanjo & Kanon
Nanjo & Kumasawa
Eva & Hideyoshi
Eva & Rudolf
George & Natsuhi
George & Hideyoshi
Kyrie & Rudolf
Battler & (all but Jessica and Eva)
Maria & (Kinzo, Rosa, Genji)
Gohda & Shannon
Kumasawa & Shannon
Kumasawa & Gohda