Gundam 00 Movie: A wakening of the Trailblazer - Discussion

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

For the record, one of the magazines released during S2 I recall reading mentioned that 90% of war on Earth has been eradicated already due to Celestial Being's efforts in S1 and the resulting united government afterwords.

Curious where this came from. I think this is more of like thanks to Team Trinity/UN effort. Before Taklamakhan (before Celestial Being's last mission), it was only around 40%

...since Aeolia is making humanity follow his Plan too...

Aeolia had been out of the picture since S1. Aeolia doesn't have a hand in anything that happened anymore. It's just people working to his vision. I think both side have been doing this in S2.

The lesson learned in the movie was that the peace brought upon by the fear of force is important but ultimately temporary and that to further glue humanity together they needed the Innovation to keep themselves united

Not innovation. Descarted have been living in fear and detention as a lab rat and in addition he innovated but never reached the end game of it all :/

I think its more of trying to reach (willingness) understanding through any means. Unification of consciousness doesn't totally lead to peace. It's just a tool. S2 shows this and Aeolia knew this, which is why he put this part at the end, before the dialogues with other life. 00 Qan[T] just have a mean to understanding through connection of thoughts.

[DV04]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

What exactly constitutes a car chasing someone as a horror movie?

That happens a lot in action movies, even without having drivers. I see it as sci-fi element. More than a horror one.

Seriously... it feels that a lot of posters on here don't watch a lot of horror movies. I think they only say that because of the vibe and the song playing in the background during the chase.

Originally Posted by kakakka

Not innovation. Descarted have been living in fear and detention as a lab rat and in addition he innovated but never reached the end game of it all :/

What? No where in the movie indicated that. He was a lab rat, but I thought he awoken after the last battle at the end of season 2 where Setsuna went into Trans Am Burst? Descartes looked confident in his new Innovator abilities and he even looked down on normal humans as inferior. Unless the info you got is from an outside official source or something.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

That's what I was happy about in the movie. Even though he had the power to wipe out all the aliens, he still chose to negotiate and make peace.
This is what makes 'Gundam' a symbolic figure and not just a tool for destruction.

I personally think it's better for 00 Qan(T) not to be able to fight the ELS as effectively as it should (theoretically), it would make the importance of it's quantum abilities much more pronounced since there is no other way to survive it.

Originally Posted by kakakka

Curious where this came from. I think this is more of like thanks to Team Trinity/UN effort. Before Taklamakhan (before Celestial Being's last mission), it was only around 40%

It's some small magazine info. I remember reading off Good Haro's site I think.

While it's not just CB though but it's their interventions that put fear into the people, as well as making the nations realise they have to unite, which is part of the Plan, but your right Team Trinity does appear to do that job better,

I actually always get the feeling that Team Trinity is more effective in playing the intended role of the Plan than the Ptolemaios did. They actually terrorize the world into action while Ptolemaios was trying to act more like vigilante heroes(and infact actually spltting people into pro and anti CB faction groups). And ironically enough, Ribbons appear to be playing the Plan more towards the original intention in Phase I, minus the takeover Veda thing and a few other things.

Originally Posted by kakakka

I think its more of trying to reach (willingness) understanding through any means. Unification of consciousness doesn't totally lead to peace. It's just a tool. S2 shows this and Aeolia knew this, which is why he put this part at the end, before the dialogues with other life. 00 Qan[T] just have a mean to understanding through connection of thoughts.

Even if it's just a tool, it's important nevertheless since people have been trying to understand each other for ages. Innovation is just a powerful effective glue (on top of the everything else that already been done) to ensure that those who already have the willingness can do it effectively before they even arisen.

Originally Posted by DV04

What? No where in the movie indicated that. He was a lab rat, but I thought he awoken after the last battle at the end of season 2 where Setsuna went into Trans Am Burst? Descartes looked confident in his new Innovator abilities and he even looked down on normal humans as inferior. Unless the info you got is from an outside official source or something.

We never knew when he Innovated exactly although the TAB incident is likely involved and we know he already was an Innovator when we first saw him.

Speaking of which, we have a lot of potential Innovators out there already. Question is, we don't how they are evolving directly. I've always personally theorized that the TAB "planted a seed of some sort"(not literally, but you catch my drift) on them that lets them transform into Innovators over time, as opposed to turning them into Innovation in one go immediately.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by DV04

What? No where in the movie indicated that. He was a lab rat, but I thought he awoken after the last battle at the end of season 2 where Setsuna went into Trans Am Burst? Descartes looked confident in his new Innovator abilities and he even looked down on normal humans as inferior. Unless the info you got is from an outside official source or something.

You're misunderstanding my post. I'm not talking about how he innovated.

Originally Posted by SonicSP

It's some small magazine info. I remember reading off Good Haro's site I think.

I don't remember reading it. I'll try diggin it there sometimes (if he/she still keep them).

While it's not just CB though but it's their interventions that put fear into the people, as well as making the nations realise they have to unite, which is part of the Plan, but your right Team Trinity does appear to do that job better,

I actually always get the feeling that Team Trinity is more effective in playing the intended role of the Plan than the Ptolemaios did. They actually terrorize the world into action while Ptolemaios was trying to act more like vigilante heroes(and infact actually spltting people into pro and anti CB faction groups). And ironically enough, Ribbons appear to be playing the Plan more towards the original intention in Phase I, minus the takeover Veda thing and a few other things.

I think dividing people's opinion is expected. I don't think people were supposed to have one sided opinion about CB. The governments though, they are supposed to work together in some way, as CB is threatening some of their interests.

I personally think that if the Plan is in its real intended path, there won't be a need for the Trinity even if CB still doing what they're doing. Even Tieria/Veda didn't expect situation in the Taklamakan operation (3 superpowers working together ''early'') from the long shot. I just think that the plan had been slightly distorted/deviated even before 2307 anyway, that's why the Trinity/Ribbons had been a favourable options for Phase I.

Even if it's just a tool, it's important nevertheless since people have been trying to understand each other for ages...

If that is true, Aeolia wouldn't have made the plan in the first place. He knows that this is not true, since there is also the side of humanity as corrupt, greedy and selfish.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by kakakka

If that is true, Aeolia wouldn't have made the plan in the first place. He knows that this is not true, since there is also the side of humanity as corrupt, greedy and selfish.

There are corrupt people out there but Aeolia believes that the general good of humanity will prevail. That's the difference between him and Ribbons. He believes that most of humanity would prevail once they have the communications barrier lifted, while Ribbons genuinely believe that such humanity doesnt exist and Innovation as Aeolia intended would not have the desired result because of it. That's one of the reasons he created his deviation, because he truly believes that humanity needs a divine figure imposing his will on them(as in literally) and that if he doesnt, they're doomed.

Of course, I don't think Innovation alone would be enough to solve everything. That's why it's the last important step in the Plan as opposed to the first, since your going to need to solve other problems such as energy, the large amounts of nuclear, the lack of a united humanity first. But these are all fragile even after they're solved so Innovation is suppose to cement them even further after these are all accomplished as well as to prepare humanity for deep space. Even after all of this there would still be some bad apples out there, but at least the general humanity will be united or at least it's suppose to be.

[Marikina]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

There are corrupt people out there but Aeolia believes that the general good of humanity will prevail.

That's what I quite like about humanity in 00: they actually the capacity and willingness to strive to be better and change. Which I guess is why aliens really were the only way to go in terms of conflict, since more "human vs human" would just be the same sequelitis regression that has bogged down past entries in the franchise.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Marikina

That's what I quite like about humanity in 00: they actually the capacity and willingness to strive to be better and change. Which I guess is why aliens really were the only way to go in terms of conflict, since more "human vs human" would just be the same sequelitis regression that has bogged down past entries in the franchise.

It's not very realistic though.

I don't have a problem with inclusion of aliens but human conflicts never get old.

[Tak]

After watching the movie for the third time, I thought I should post my finalized thought of the supposed end to the 00 franchise.

As usual, they are nothing more than opinions.

First of all, I seen many fleet engagements in the Gundam universe, but this one takes the cake as being the largest and most spectacular. It is also worth noting that this is probably the first time (correct me if I am wrong) humanity in the Gundam universe united against a common threat. Needless to say, this is one of the best last-stands I have ever seen, comparable to what I have watched a decade ago, in Macross II: Lovers Again. Nonetheless, the lack of atmospheric dogfights and ground battles serve as a (very) minor deterrent to my overall enjoyment of the battle-sequences.

Unfortunately, the plot of Trailblazer seems to be an antithesis of the norm. Gundam had, at least for me, always been about intense character drama and personal struggles, but Trailblazer would have little to do with them. Instead, the movie gave us an antagonist that seemed all too convenient (if not cheap). Never mind the utter lack of imagination from the movie's producers in creating them. Personally, I think they could do a lot more & better than to give us something that was obviously easier to render in CGI on a limited budget.

In addition, most perceptions of the ELS were one-sided, since meaningful interaction between humanity and the ELS were kept at a minimum, leaving many questions unanswered. I know their planet was devoured by a red-dwarf, and I know they just want to survive, but when they, as a sentiment organism destroy another sentiment organism, what were their exact justifications? What was the perceived threat? Moreover, after assimilating so many humans, what was their understanding of humanity prior to the ‘dialogue’? And wouldn’t anyone like to know just what the dialogues were about? The ending was too abrupt and unsatisfactory. The ELS went from war-mode to a flower in less than a minute, but the process in achieving that end will forever remain a mystery.

And… poor Feldt, but not unpredicted.

- Tak

[Rising Dragon]

IIRC, G-Gundam had most, if not all, of humanity uniting against the Devil Gundam in the end. Dunno if it counts as I think most saw it as Neo-Japan trying to usurp control over the world (even though they already won right to govern thanks to Domon).

To answer your question about the ELS: the justification, if you want to call it that, is that they simply didn't know. They didn't know they were killing people with their assimilation; after all, it was the only way they knew how to learn. As for the perceived threat (when they started using GN-XIV forms and fighting back rather than pure assimilation), was, basically, their first contact with a human who could conceivably communicate with them (the fight with Descartes and the Gadelaza), what they received was a hostile threat, and at that point they fought humanity as a means of self-preservation. For all intents and purposes, they sent out a research probe to check things out, humanity blew it up and then came after them with a vengeance.

Presumably, the dialogue was just an exchange of information. They responded to Setsuna's question as to what their goal was (looking for a new home and understanding what they encountered throughout the galaxy during their travels), and in exchange, Setsuna likely informed them what humanity was and that their assimilation was harmful to them. Essentially, clearing up the misunderstanding. I think the movie displayed only the ELS' side of the dialogue both because up until that point we'd already known humanity's side of the conflict and, well, because it'd be really freakin' hard to depict Setsuna and Tieria communicating with a race that can only communicate through quantum brainwaves, as I doubt the ELS have any concept of vocal communication.

[Tak]

These are fine hypothesis, some of which I have reached myself. Though at the end, I fail to convince myself of their validity.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

They didn't know they were killing people with their assimilation; after all, it was the only way they knew how to learn.

I came to this conclusion myself, but I backed away almost immediately. After assimilating untold number of humans, one would think they have an idea, or if I may dare say LEARN that gee, maybe a vast majority of humans do not appreciate being in a state of oppression, pain or agony or *gasp* death! After all, the ELS should know about death pretty well themselves.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

their first contact with a human who could conceivably communicate with them (the fight with Descartes and the Gadelaza), what they received was a hostile threat, and at that point they fought humanity as a means of self-preservation. For all intents and purposes, they sent out a research probe to check things out, humanity blew it up and then came after them with a vengeance.

Yes, and my question was, what threat? That is, what threat did these special humans posed to the ELS that would endanger their self-preservation? The movie failed to answer that question, leaving us to guess what the ELS' perception of a human-posed threat.

Presumably the ELS could have just altered course and avoided the humans, but they did not do that, and decided to destroy them with overwhelming superiority.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Presumably, the dialogue was just an exchange of information. They responded to Setsuna's question as to what their goal was (looking for a new home and understanding what they encountered throughout the galaxy during their travels), and in exchange, Setsuna likely informed them what humanity was and that their assimilation was harmful to them.

Again, you have a hypothesis that I can agree with, but the process depicted in the movie was not very convincing. After all, all that information was exchanged in less than a minute. As soon as Setsuna performed, for the lack of a better description, warp travel, the war ended, a flower came out of nowhere and hostility ceased... what? I am sitting behind the screen trying to find out just what was exchanged between the two, but was left clueless.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

well, because it'd be really freakin' hard to depict Setsuna and Tieria communicating with a race that can only communicate through quantum brainwaves, as I doubt the ELS have any concept of vocal communication.

Gundam is full of metaphors. In the infinite wisdom of Trailblazer's creators, they could have come up with something, and I believe it could be done.

Now, I am not really disagreeing with you, unfortunately, I cannot help but feel unsatisfied after viewing the film.

- Tak

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Tak

I came to this conclusion myself, but I backed away almost immediately. After assimilating untold number of humans, one would think they have an idea, or if I may dare say LEARN that gee, maybe a vast majority of humans do not appreciate being in a state of oppression, pain or agony or *gasp* death! After all, the ELS should know about death pretty well themselves.

This is assuming that the ELS understand pain and oppression in the same way we do. They may experience the concept of pain and oppression, but likely in a totally different manner. It's likely that they don't understand that what they were doing is painful to us - they've never encountered humanity before afterall, and thus have no references to gauge what is "pain" and "suffering" to us. I mean they're aliens who assimilate and consume as their way of life not by culture but by simple biology, and they even effortlessly merge with each other into larger forms.

Human pain would likely not be in the same manner as ELS pain.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

This is assuming that the ELS understand pain and oppression in the same way we do. They may experience the concept of pain and oppression, but likely in a totally different manner. It's likely that they don't understand that what they were doing is painful to us - they've never encountered humanity before afterall, and thus have no references to gauge what is "pain" and "suffering" to us. I mean they're aliens who assimilate and consume as their way of life not by culture but by simple biology, and they even effortlessly merge with each other into larger forms.

Human pain would likely not be in the same manner as ELS pain.

Thus, this makes it all that important for me, personally, to know just what Setsuna exchanged with them to make them understand pain & suffering as we see it.

Moreover, why does it have to be Setsuna? While we know Setsuna possess stronger abilities as a human being, why is his perception of pain & suffering anymore different than the rest of humanity? They aren't, so again leaves the question, what did Setsuna do to make them understand? This is a very valid question that was never answered in the movie.

- Tak

[Rising Dragon]

It had to be Setsuna because he was the only known Innovator with access to a mobile suit, plus the only one able to access Trans-AM Burst as he had the Twin Drive System. Plus Setsuna, as opposed to Descartes, has a far greater capacity, and more importantly far more willingness and experience at attempting to understand others./partialresponse

[kakakka]

If we go by the movie, they know well of death by being burned/vaporized. ESF/Humans have those as weapons = threat to ELS. It might have been silly at first, but if that sticks with their memory years after their home planet was ruined, I think they'll take this threat very seriously.

Also for me, I think Setsuna's dialogue with scenes showing people fighting to survive that goes with it (just as what he might have imagined) after the Trans-Am burst tells all what info he have given the ELS...

[Rising Dragon]

Plus there was his flashback-ish scene where he imagined the kid shot to pieces, teen!Neil's anguished scream, Neil's death, Lichty and Christina's death, Amia's bloodied hand... he possibly transmitted that, but showing it again would just be a needless rehash.

As for the ELS considering humanity a threat: well yes, they could've avoided humanity. But did they have evidence that they could? Not really. From the gSS subs I used, the ESF did say that the aliens weren't on a course for Earth, or likely would've missed it, and sent that military envoy there just in case. But what happens when they arrive? Their only Innovator goes on a rampage. From the ELS' perception, they could've been minding their own business yet humanity still sounds out a dangerous machine that immediately attacks them.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's what the narrative was to me. The personal quests part stayed there in the story more or less, but it completely overshadowed their original mission, to end all war. They painted the innovades as the enemy, the twistedness of the world. Rather than trying to deal with the war on earth, and the struggles happening there, they conveniently united the evils of the earth into a) one giant corrupt military organization the A-LAWS, and b) these so called evolved humans who wanted to lead mankind.

I just felt it cheapened the effect.

I see what you're saying, it's like Setsuna's homeland an it's people were completely placated with this whole macro idea of a space-flower essentially being the thing that shifted the overall peace...What about the actual internal conflict on the ground that actually made these people understand? The movie tried to throw the situation a bone (With Marina trying to visit their space colony), but much like my criticism of the movie there was just too much $hit to cover to bring out the best in that point...

What I said originally about this series after it concluded was that this Gundam series was probably morso about character motivations than it was about anything else (Morso than any G-series IMO), and that's why I think the movie exhibited some of the same problems many may have had in the series, because when you create a show where you want the reasoning of the characters more to the forefront than the actual depth that brings them to their actions (Some which are overdone Gundam Cliches), you don't rent enough space in the viewers minds to accept that unless the viewer is completely sold on this story-telling technique...In a 50 ep series there's far more to base and praise this style on, but in a 2hr movie if you don't establish these things with somewhat of a universal depth, you're gonna get plenty of complaints in you're area of argument...

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Tak

Moreover, why does it have to be Setsuna? While we know Setsuna possess stronger abilities as a human being, why is his perception of pain & suffering anymore different than the rest of humanity? They aren't, so again leaves the question, what did Setsuna do to make them understand? This is a very valid question that was never answered in the movie.

- Tak

Setsuna likely is not the only human that qualifies for such a position but he's probably one of those who does. And he just happened to be the one who experienced Innovation first due to his exposure to the Twin Drive and has the fate of working with Celestial Being when he's suppose to be dead if Ribbons followed orders inside the 0 Gundam or hadn't chosen him as a Meisters. Just a set of circumstances that led him here.

But somebody has to do the job, Setsuna just happened to be in the right position to do so, both from his complete Innovation as well as what he's been through. His been fighting his whole life for peace, and he's seen pain both suffered from others arounds him or even some caused by him in his years of battles as well as more other general stuff on his travels.

As for what did Setsuna did showed to make them understand, all he needed to show was what he's been through or even what is happening at the moment. He needed to transmit the feel rather than the image.

[finalnight]

Just watched it, question:

Spoiler for Movie:

Why did Graham have a blow a hole in the ELS ship in the final battle? I thought Celestial Being's big gun did that at the start of the battle.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by finalnight

Just watched it, question:

Spoiler for Movie:

Why did Graham have a blow a hole in the ELS ship in the final battle? I thought Celestial Being's big gun did that at the start of the battle.

Spoiler:

It closed up.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

This is assuming that the ELS understand pain and oppression in the same way we do. They may experience the concept of pain and oppression, but likely in a totally different manner.

The problem is that we are filling the blanks here, and while the points made are not completely invalid, we have no way of verifying our hypothesis to their full extent.

Seeing how death is a universal concept amongst sentiment beings, I do not understand as to why the ELS would have a different conception of pain & suffering from us. Especially since the movie failed to show just exactly in what ways different the ELS perceived them. If anything, the movie pretty much showed that the ELS fear and loath agony the way we do.

Then we come to this:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

ESF/Humans have those as weapons = threat to ELS.

Apparently the ELS are so quick at adapting and advancing existing human technology to the point where an ancient 130 year old space vessel can be altered to deter the most advanced missile technology Earth has to offer (so no, our psycho-innovators actually did not fire the first shot), but in the ELS' infinite wisdom, it cannot use the same vessel send a signal to approaching patrol ships in an attempt to communicate? It can render a trucks into a pilotless drone but somehow unable to broadcast its desire to communicate by other means? That is not very convincing.

Moreover I am quite certain the ELS sensed doubt amongst humanity when the latter debated on the course of action against them, but obviously that made no impact even though the ELS had been amongst humanity for quite some time prior to their massive invasion. I have to wonder what the ELS did all these time while on Earth ? Did they not learn anything? What was the preventing factor for them to acquire information from humanity? Yes, its great that Setsuna can combine with Deus-ex-machina to communicate with the ELS, but what was the preventing factor for the latter to learn in the first place!?


The ELS had potential to become interesting enemies, but the 2 hour movie did nothing more than cheapening their existence. Thus while I am presented with a lot of wow-factor in the movie's visual department, the ELS are possibly the most boring antagonist I have yet encountered in a Gundam series.

At the end, all that hype surrounding the end of 2nd season did not help, either.

- Tak