2009-11-30, 12:56 | Link #3742 | |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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My best guess is that it's based upon a set of rules that is, while not overly complex, hard to deduce when working backwards :/. Here's some of my "general idea" guesses: * The first twilights are the only remotely random set in the group, but all people who are killed fall into one concrete "group". It's also possible that dying in the first twilight overrides certain rules regarding death order. * There are no death order rules regarding pairings (slight exclusion below) - after all, Beatrice wants to see them suffer, but she doesn't care how, and this can happen whether one dies before the other, vice versa, or simultaneously. * The death order rules are arranged such that certain suspicious people appear more suspicious than they really are (Kanon, Nanjo, Rosa). (aka they die later unless killed in a first twilight or necessitated in a second twilight) * The second twilight can only involve a few specific pairs (a few couples and a few close family members). The pairs are in a specific order on a priority "list" and are narrowed down by who dies in the first twilight. Jessica and George dying in EP4 though kind of throws this off, because otherwise we have: Eva and Hideyoshi Jessica and Kanon Rosa and Maria ??? Spoiler for EP 5:
Not that it's a very clean rule anyways :/. * Battler may not be killed in any of the ordered twilights. * The ninth twilight on is irrelevant to the rules.
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2009-11-30, 18:14 | Link #3743 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
(This isn't a taunt or anything; personally I don't, and in fact I think it's probably impossible the way the record states) |
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2009-11-30, 19:53 | Link #3744 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Er, I meant except in Ep3. That's the only time Hideyoshi outlives Kanon/Kumasawa, and that's because they die in the first twilight.
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I meant that if there's a particular pattern to the deaths, we should be able to use it to figure out what really happened in Ep4. ...Battler's game might be useful in understanding this, but only if we get to see ALL the deaths and their exact order. |
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2009-11-30, 20:15 | Link #3745 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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I don't believe it as a death order at all - I just believe it as who was chosen for each "twilight", which I think is the thing we're supposed to be able to predict.
The reason I think the twilights are predictable and not the actual death order is because of the messed-up order in EP2. (how Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed but not staked until a LONG time later, and how the order in which Gohda/Shannon/George supposedly died was not the order in which they were staked)
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2009-11-30, 20:23 | Link #3746 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
But ah, I see what you're getting at... Did Ryukishi say "twilights" or "deaths" in that interview? Edit: chronotrig's post just says Ryukishi says we should be able to guess "what happens next"... so I guess going with twilights is far easier than death order, since we don't know Ep4's for certain and Ep2's is fucked up. |
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2009-11-30, 20:29 | Link #3747 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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I don't think they were ever confirmed dead, but since they were missing between their supposed death and the staking it's not too naive to assume.
Hmm, looking back...what he said could go either way, but it does seem to imply twilight: Spoiler for interview snippet:
EDIT: Yeah, you got it XD.
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2009-11-30, 20:35 | Link #3748 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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So, if it's twilights that fall into that pattern, I need to revise my charts... actually, does anyone else have the time and/or energy to make a chart with all the twilights on it, and post it up here? Figuring out who died in Ep5 might be very, very useful...
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2009-11-30, 21:27 | Link #3750 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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Taking a stab at it (death order in EP5):
Spoiler for EP5:
However this was based on a ton of random tiny patterns...I don't think that constitutes an "answer" :/. And, um, that's a strange set of survivors to say the least...
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2009-11-30, 22:44 | Link #3751 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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Looking at the notes...It seems like the only one who dies at different twilights each time is Kanon. He seems to also be the only one that doesn't have a common death twilight.
Other patterns include: Kyrie is gouged by Mammon in both ep 3 and 4 (not on chart, but in game, Battler picks up Mammon's stake). She is the only victim to be gouged by mammon twice! Battler also removes the Stake from her head. Aside from episode 3, Eva and Hideyoshi always perish together. For me, episode 3 definitely screws up the patterns a lot. Though I guess having all servants die right off the bat is a nice contrast to having all parents die right off the bat in episode 2... |
2009-11-30, 23:16 | Link #3752 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Natsuhi would probably die around the Fourth Twilight in ep5.
The real killer would finish the Second Twilight, after which point Natsuhi is no longer valuable as a patsy (they'll keep her under close watch, so the next time someone is killed it will be clear she isn't guilty). Erika would also make sense as a victim, while she's still reeling from being wrong. Beyond that, no idea. |
2009-11-30, 23:31 | Link #3753 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Spoiler for Some "evidence":
Spoiler for About the "patterns":
Spoiler for Some extra stuff:
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2009-11-30, 23:44 | Link #3754 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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Yeah, I BS'd a couple of those because it made using the existing patterns a little easier. Not expecting it to be right but I'm curious as to how much of the "predeceasing" patterns hold. (a few are kind of "sticking" in my head but not enough to make a complete ruleset or anything really coherent)
Plus I just kind of wanted to make one . It'd be fun to see Natsuhi die so we can see Erika bawling and ripping her own hair out - and it'll probably happen for irony's sake (and by "the rules", of course). All I really know is that Eva has a very high chance of being the next victim and that Shannon and Kanon have a very low chance of survival. ...as for Erika, who knows? She'll probably be whacked off fairly early just to make her shut up - and she probably won't be staked.
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2009-12-01, 00:14 | Link #3755 | |
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Artist
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ImaginaryLand
Age: 33
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Quote:
"Uhh yeah, usually the third twilight is just so that you can all praise Beatrice's name on high, but uhhh... I made an exception."
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2009-12-01, 00:43 | Link #3757 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
Mammon's stake is the one with the most abnormal circumstances around it, though. Episode 1: Stabbed into Kinzo's corpse, rather than a genuine victim; Maria spent a long time staring at it as if something was weird about it Episode 2: Left by the head of Shannon, the only gunshot victim; was the only stake not stabbed into a wound Episode 3: Found by the police, but not believed to be a murder weapon, despite having supposedly been stuck in Kyrie's stomach Quote:
There aren't any other survivors missing at that point, but Kinzo's corpse isn't accounted for. If we build on the "let's frame Natsuhi" theme of Hideyoshi's death, wouldn't it be suspicious if the corpse turned up in the boiler room? My guess at the death order: 2nd: Hideyoshi (Lucifer), Kinzo (Mammon) 4th: Kanon (Satan) 5th: Gohda (Beelzebub) 6th: Natsuhi (Asmodeus) 7th: Kumasawa (Leviathan) 8th: Nanjo (Belphegor) 10th: Battler, Erika, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Shannon It has the benefit of a showdown at the tenth twilight with Erika trying to pin the crime on Battler's parents Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-12-01 at 00:53. |
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2009-12-01, 01:07 | Link #3758 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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I have always thought that about the 2nd twilight (that it's simply two isolated pawns that get knocked off), but the need to be able to predict its outcome is causing real problems with that :/. It's probably a lot more complicated than "Couple X" or "Couple Y" - I agree.
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2009-12-01, 01:32 | Link #3760 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for EP 6:
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