Why do you think Anime has become so popular in the US recently?

[DarkCntry]

Originally Posted by yourhead

Why didn't you quote the above post? If I am being the standard "I hate dubs, subs rule" frothing fanboy, why do I still support Simpsons to be in english dubs? It's because I love originals. While this may be my own opinion, that ruling applies only to a certain extent(or no extent at all.) If you're talking about subtitles taking up a part of the screen, I can always watch twice, with either being no-sub and no-dubs. No harm doing that at all.

Kamui4356 just told you what I wanted to. He's a good poster.

Because Simpsons is on a different scale than that of what we're discussing here. Now, if we were all in Japan talking about the Simpsons, the comparison would hold water.

The originals are without English subtitles, and there are many that even forgo the whole closed captioning as well, so to tell me that you enjoy the original only means you enjoy subtitled versions, but when you state that it's best enjoyed as the original it would mean fully in Japanese without the English subtitles.

Originally Posted by Toua

Must one always condone dubs in order not to be labeled as a subtitle fanboy? SUBMIT TO MY LINE OF THINKING THAT DUBS ARE O.K. OR I~ SHALL LABEL YOU FANBOY AND ELITIST hear:

It's the attitude that all dubs suck that throws out the elitist comments...to tell you the truth on a whole, dubs have not sucked since about '97. There are still ones here and there that can make ears bleed, but outside of hentai there is little in the way to make the argument that dubs suck.

Dubs are a requirement in the Western world, despite what many think, even polling a site like this is still going to only poll a very small minority in the overall market when it comes to a sub over dub demand. There's plenty of proof in this when you start grabbing numbers of sub-only releases as they are sold compared to that of an equivalent anime with dub and sub tracks.

As with most distributors they have attempted to do a sub-only release, to both cut costs and get product out faster, but have found that those sales have never come close to matching that of their normal releases.

[Solace]

Dubs have drastically improved in quality, but I think the larger reason Dubs sell better is two fold: One, people are usually more comfortable hearing things in their native language, and two, most people don't like reading subtitles and trying to pay attention to what's going on at the same time.

For someone who watches the subtitled versions Dubs can be cringe worthy just on the basis of voice familiarity. When you are used to hearing the Japanese (or other languages) voice acting, and then it's switched to another language, some of the nuances are lost. In a few cases, changing the voice can completely change how the character appeals to the audience.

In the case of the Japanese language, there are certain phrases and pitches that end up lost in translation. Kyaaa, Eh?, Nani?, some of the higher pitched or younger sounding vocals, various grunts and yells, etc., just as examples.

I remember, growing up on the English version of Dragonball Z, hearing the Japanese voices for the first time. Everything felt so weird, and I kept thinking stuff like "Goku doesn't sound like that!" "The power up yelling is totally off!", and so on. I feel the reverse now that I watch most anime subtitled first, and while dubs really have gotten better at matching the original voice acting, it still comes across to me as weird and a little off.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Dubs are a requirement in the Western world

Not really, dubbing is prevalent in major languages e.g. English, French, Spanish, Italian and German. The preference of dubbing/subtitles really depends on what you grew up on.

Which one is better? No idea, I prefer subs but I won't force a "zomg subs are the best" opinion and hopefully vice versa.

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

As with most distributors they have attempted to do a sub-only release, to both cut costs and get product out faster, but have found that those sales have never come close to matching that of their normal releases.

And sub-only anime weren't aimed for an wider audience to begin with but for a niche market, meaning the company would never make a profit of it if it included a dub track (dubbing is expensive)


As for the original thread subject, anime is more popular because of the internet, but I don't think its that popular.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

It's the attitude that all dubs suck that throws out the elitist comments...

I think you guys are using words that weren't meant for these kinds of discussions. As for myself, I am predisposed to liking foreign films presented in a way that is as close to the original as possible. That goes for any foreign video product, not just anime. Calling me elitist because of that is like calling a cripple lazy because he doesn't give walking a chance. I wish to experience content as close to the original as possible, and dubs CANNOT compare to subtitles when it comes to that. They may be more enjoyable than subtitles, but that's as far as they go.

Dubs are a requirement in the Western world, despite what many think, even polling a site like this is still going to only poll a very small minority in the overall market when it comes to a sub over dub demand. There's plenty of proof in this when you start grabbing numbers of sub-only releases as they are sold compared to that of an equivalent anime with dub and sub tracks.

As with most distributors they have attempted to do a sub-only release, to both cut costs and get product out faster, but have found that those sales have never come close to matching that of their normal releases.

You're right that the majority of casual consumers do not purchase DVDs without an English dub. Moreover, major video stores do not accept subtitled-only DVDs in the first place. But you're definitely wrong to parallel the success/failure of anime DVDs with the presence of English dubs. As you may be aware, dubs are huge investments that bring in sales of the casual consumer body, and because of that it's perfectly logical that sub-only releases output less sold copies than dub releases. We're also talking higher profit/loss margins, which is something that might've contributed to Geneon USA's failure. They tried selling niche shows dubbed (major investment) in order to appeal to the casual consumer body, when they could've simply put those out subbed only and gauge the smaller and more faithful hardcore consumer body instead. Profit/loss margins would be significantly smaller, but sub only releases pose less of a risk. If done right, they could've appealed to a small group of fans that view anime more than just any other form of entertainment.
I suspect that subbed only releases do not perform well in the U.S. simply because most of them are too weak for any kind of release in the U.S, content-wise. Especially Media Blaster's releases, the majority of their titles (except for Genshiken) personally don't appeal to me, and as a collector I do not wish to purchase their titles on content alone. Now, if some company started to offer popular niche shows subbed only, the NA industry might even get saved. Dubs that served as a tapping device for the casual consumer market were a step in the wrong direction.

[Phantasmagoria]

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Because Simpsons is on a different scale than that of what we're discussing here. Now, if we were all in Japan talking about the Simpsons, the comparison would hold water.

The originals are without English subtitles, and there are many that even forgo the whole closed captioning as well, so to tell me that you enjoy the original only means you enjoy subtitled versions, but when you state that it's best enjoyed as the original it would mean fully in Japanese without the English subtitles.

Like I said before, I don't mind watching twice, with either being no subs/dubs.

[geckleon91]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Why is anime popular? New american TV show titled, "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader." Need I say more?

oh my god! you are so right.

[Zhemos]

All this talk about American TV and no one has mentioned Monk?! It's clearly the best show airing at the moment in my opinion. :P


While I admit DBZ was a factor in the rising popularity of anime it wasn't the sole contributer. I believe Pokemon had a much stronger impact on animes popularity in America.

[Nenkitsune]

To me it depends as far as the entire dub/sub thing. ROD the TV had one of the best dub's I've ever heard, and the character's voices stayed true to the original. FLCL was great as well, and was basically spot on, as was GITS:SAC.
but I still prefer to watch subs. Watching anime with the original track (japanese) to me sounds better. I don't understand it all, but i do get the jist of a lot of things. Eventually I'll just be able to watch raws though haha.

i almost want to say one of the reasons anime has been getting more popular, is because of Toonami. Toonami was my first major exposure to anime, and from there it exploded. Then Adult Swim came around. It basically caused people to get exposed to more shows than just DBZ and Pokemon.

but as for dubs/subs. I prefer subs (just because i do enjoy hearing japanese) but if the dub is excellent, I will watch both depending on my mood. (btw excel saga had an excellent dub)

[mcruz1014]

Although it may seem a little contrived, Cartoon Network and Toonami are a significant factor in the popularization of anime in the U.S. At the time that Toonami started its run, few people in the U.S. had seen cartoons with the kind of edge and "sophistication" that shows like Dragon Ball Z, Gundam Wing, and Robotech had. Dragon Ball Z's (and Toonami's in extension) success is due in part to excellent timing, as American animation at the time was stagnant and unimaginative (see: Superman animated TV show), and American youths and preteens were looking for something more mature and different. I can say for a fact that Toonami drew me into the anime "craze".

Now, because of the proliferation of high speed internet, and the ease with which subtitled anime can be viewed, there is a growing niche for anime in the truest sense. That is, not the dubbed versions (which have gotten exponentially better as the years pass, see: Full Metal Alchemist), but the shows in their original language and form, as they were intended to be seen. However, the accesibility of anime over the internet has been a double edged sword, since anime dvd and video sales have and will suffer because of it.

[JustInn14]

Trust me. American animation, and sit coms, have gone WAAAAAY down hill. There are some exceptions, but not enough to blow your time though 30 minutes of sheer SH$$!


Am I the only one to notice that a :LOT: of American shows usually go down hill after season 2/3?!

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Viper764

Ten years ago the Anime industry in the US was worth thousands. Today, it's a multi-million/billion dollar industry. What do you think attracts people to Anime, and why do you think its popularity only boomed recently?

Looking at the current R1 Anime Market, i would say the questions should be "why is anime getting less popular?"

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Looking at the current R1 Anime Market, i would say the questions should be "why is anime getting less popular?"

Oh, that one's easy. Market got oversaturated with not only the "A" list stuff, but the "B" and "C" (and some would say "D").

(As a tangent) When anime got popular, R1 had... oh, I dunno, a decade of stuff ready to go and be re-released also. That well has kind of dried up, too.

With Netflix, people buy less DVD's in general, too.

[WanderingKnight]

[offtopic]

You guys arguing about subtitles should try living in a world where the dominating country doesn't speak your language... THEN we'll talk about dubbing vs subtitling. 90% of the people that watch TV and movies on a regular basis around here would tell you that they prefer subs to dubs, but that's because we're extremely used to it. I really can't imagine international movies without subs, so it's hard for me to understand the US general mindset on this.

Of course, since I'm partly a linguist in training due to my field of study (English translation), I could argue that no language could be well-adapted to a foreign script, especially if we're talking about languages as distant as Japanese and <insert Western language here>. Japanese conventions and mannerisms differ a lot from the ones we're used to (to give a quick and dirty example, they use A LOT more personal noun vocatives when addressing another person) and that, in the context of a theatrical script, restricts a lot the naturalness of any dubbed outcome.

Of course, to each his own. I can't say I would care if all dubs were to disappear from the face of the Earth, though

[/offtopic]

[Nenkitsune]

WanderingKnight, I think you might have misunderstood the question. it was whether Subtitles (with japanese dub) VS English Dub's (no subtitles)

Basically meaning RE-dubbing the shows' from Japanese into English.

some people prefer English dubs with no subtitles and some prefer Japanese dubs with subtitles.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

[offtopic]

I really can't imagine international movies without subs, so it's hard for me to understand the US general mindset on this.
[/offtopic]

To play Devil's advocate... there is a huge difference between dubbing a live action movie vs an anime. Nobody (I hope) watches something like Pan's Labyrinth dubbed.

But anime is already dubbed from the start, it is just that the original Japanese dub is almost always the best.

Personally, the vast majority of the time I prefer subtitles. I just like listening to the original Japanese more, and by now I can understand enough words to make it even better.

However, there are 5 series I can think of that I prefer the dub (ROD the TV, GITS:SAC, Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Panic, and Tsukikage Ran). Each of those has an awesome dub.

[Slice of Life]

I would like to support Toua against these accusations of elitism.

Just accept that some people consider it worthy to invest time or money, or whatever into something because they find the result rewarding.

Look at it that way: I don't play tennis. For me, a tennis racket is a tennis racket, no matter if it costs 50 € or 5000 €. A semi-professional tennis player will laugh at me for that. He will tell me that he knows from experience that there are vast differences in quality, and these differences matter to him. So should I tell him that all these differences are just in his mind and he's not simply buying the cheapest racket because it makes him feel superior?

Getting used to watching subbed anime, movies, or whatever does require some effort. (That is, if you're not used to it already since childhood, because you come from a country where dubbing isn't profitable.) But it can be very rewarding once you are used to it. If you don't care because you have other priorities in life, then OK, but don't say it doesn't matter. You confuse elitism with individualism, and all you might gain is conformism.

[Zenemis]

A most amusing thing is hearing this:

"Those dumb guys don't know anything about anime, they reckon it's like Pokemon and Digimon... anime rulez."

Said person will then go on to say:

"...And Western TV sucks, it's all crap like Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader and Big Brother."


I take it back. It's not amusing. It's painful.

[D a m i e n]

without reading the 5 pages of answer previous to mine, i d say "it s because 95% of US show totally blows" has been the most common answer.
adultswim seems to be the only channel that has/had some decent stuff (robot chiken & co)

[Vagrant0]

Originally Posted by Solace

Dubs have drastically improved in quality, but I think the larger reason Dubs sell better is two fold: One, people are usually more comfortable hearing things in their native language, and two, most people don't like reading subtitles and trying to pay attention to what's going on at the same time.

For someone who watches the subtitled versions Dubs can be cringe worthy just on the basis of voice familiarity. When you are used to hearing the Japanese (or other languages) voice acting, and then it's switched to another language, some of the nuances are lost. In a few cases, changing the voice can completely change how the character appeals to the audience.

In the case of the Japanese language, there are certain phrases and pitches that end up lost in translation. Kyaaa, Eh?, Nani?, some of the higher pitched or younger sounding vocals, various grunts and yells, etc., just as examples.

I remember, growing up on the English version of Dragonball Z, hearing the Japanese voices for the first time. Everything felt so weird, and I kept thinking stuff like "Goku doesn't sound like that!" "The power up yelling is totally off!", and so on. I feel the reverse now that I watch most anime subtitled first, and while dubs really have gotten better at matching the original voice acting, it still comes across to me as weird and a little off.

What, nothing about how the number of American VAs is rather small, so you tend to hear the same 15 or so people multiple times across a few dozen titles. Or about how the acting quality seems to be much worse when it comes to some dubs... Like Naruto, Bleach and a few others which have come through. It isn't so much that the voices aren't something you're used to, it's that they're just wrong for that character, or aren't expressive enough. Take Excel Saga for example, it's actually one of those anime I think that works well dubbed, but what is funny dubbed is even more so with the original voice acting due to the talent of the VAs.

Then there's the translation issues where names for things are westernized, and actually sound worse. Although these things are usually limited to action anime, it makes them almost unwatchable because of how stupid things sound when translated.

Yes, there are some decent dubs out there, but most of them just fail because of what is lost between translations.

[WanderingKnight]

Basically meaning RE-dubbing the shows' from Japanese into English.

But anime is already dubbed from the start

That argument has been thrown around a lot in many contexts... but that's precisely why I mentioned that, from a linguistic point of view, the whole script (thus many characteristics of the scenes themselves) is based on the Japanese language. It has nothing to do with live acting, the scenes themselves were created thinking in Japanese. This, you want it or not, sets the pace of the show itself, and thus it becomes harder to maintain the naturalness when dubbing it in another language.

Of course, that's just my elitist opinion, you all go do whatever you like