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Old 2021-06-09, 13:40   Link #34261
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
There is explicitly a timeline in which Shirou and Shiki team up together.
Source?

Quote:
Characters are not exclusive to their "base" timeline. There are versions of them in most worlds, and it's not like the Tsukihime and Fate worlds are totally separate realities. The only dividing point is whether it leans towards the affirmation or [blank space Nasu left on purpose] of Humanity.
The events of Tsukihime literally cannot happen in Fate timelines because Brunestud is dead there.

We also know for a fact the Case Files takes place in the exact same timeline as F/SN, while Adventures happens in a fourth timeline that follows it (because Nasu really doesn't want to choose between routes)

Quote:
Arcuied Brunstead can canonically be called in Fate Extra, for one.
Wasn't that Moon Cell shenanigans that even Nasu said was completely impossible, and just there for fan service?

Quote:
I can't find anything to that effect. Besides, that implies Arc is aware of her existence despite being in the Tsukihime timeline (presumably if that's the Plus Disk)
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Old 2021-06-09, 14:03   Link #34262
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
No, it didn't.

Parallel Worlds have been a part of the Nasuverse since before Fate existed as a concept, my dude. Zelretch, the Kaleidoscope dude, is the user of the Second Magic: Kaleidoscope, the Operation of Parallel Worlds.

The Proper Human History is the concentration of parallel worlds that don't lead to dead ends or the destruction of humanity, but there isn't a single "prime" timeline. And basically everything in the Nasuverse exists within that concentration outside of Notes (because in Notes the planet that maintains Proper Human History is dead)
That's not how it was explained in FGO though.

I also never said there was a single one, I said
Paralell A has it's own version of it
Paralell B has it's own version of it
[...]

I don't really see where the difference to what you said is there.

Would be strange if there was one to begin with, because the very definition of this theory doesn't have a single line, as that single line would split at the first major event in history.
How WWII ended is actually a rather common example for such a split, as a different outcome would have large scale consequences.

I'm also pretty sure Arthur's version hasn't been pruned, there is no indication of a dead end there. - Unless it's the same world where the Da's completed their ritual.

Heck not even Skadi's Lostbelt was a real dead end from the moment on Sultr got defeated.
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Old 2021-06-09, 14:08   Link #34263
XFire
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Source?
Fate Hollow Ataraxia. There's a future where Shirou and Luvia are hunting Dead Apostles with Shiki.

Which is funny because Nasu has stated they'd never get along, so there's a future where Luvia has to play baby sitter to two bickering former harem protagonists

Poor girl never catches a break.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The events of Tsukihime literally cannot happen in Fate timelines because Brunestud is dead there.
Wut? Brunstead is dead in all timelines, Zelretch killing him is what spurred the creation of Arc and Altourge. Hell, him knowing he'd get killed is the reason the Dead Apostles exist.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
We also know for a fact the Case Files takes place in the exact same timeline as F/SN, while Adventures happens in a fourth timeline that follows it (because Nasu really doesn't want to choose between routes)
Edit: Huh, never mind then. Though considering the above it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Wasn't that Moon Cell shenanigans that even Nasu said was completely impossible, and just there for fan service?
No.

Nasu even goes out of his way to describe how Arc would actually match up against Servants and such.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Bruh

They're talking about it being a meta space where "main characters" can't interact, it has nothing to do with actual canon. That's a joke scene.
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Old 2021-06-09, 14:16   Link #34264
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
That's not how it was explained in FGO though.

I also never said there was a single one, I said
Paralell A has it's own version of it
Paralell B has it's own version of it
[...]

I don't really see where the difference to what you said is there.

Would be strange if there was one to begin with, because the very definition of this theory doesn't have a single line, as that single line would split at the first major event in history.
How WWII ended is actually a rather common example for such a split, as a different outcome would have large scale consequences.

I'm also pretty sure Arthur's version hasn't been pruned, there is no indication of a dead end there. - Unless it's the same world where the Da's completed their ritual.

Heck not even Skadi's Lostbelt was a real dead end from the moment on Sultr got defeated.
You're still missing the point. Proper Human History is not a timeline. It's the name for the collection of possibilities humanity can follow.

There is only one, has only ever been one, and the Lostbelts are possibilities that were sheared away. That's always been the Nasuverses and Fates explanation.

The Nasuverse doesnt run on the theory you're talking about, it has it's own internal logic based on Nasu's rules. He never tied it to real world Multiverse theory.

And Arthur's world was pruned because the world put a timelock on Saber drawing Caliburn. Meaning it rejected any version of events where she didn't do it, including Arthur's.

As for Skadi, it was a dead end until Chaldea came and killed Surtr. While it had a future at that point, in terms of its timeline it wasn't capable of such a future on it's own.
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Old 2021-06-09, 14:38   Link #34265
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Salomon was pretty easy to be honest, won my medal... I feel like a grown up.
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Old 2021-06-09, 14:46   Link #34266
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Minor correction to my previous statement, Case Files does actually exist in the same world as the FSN routes (which raises....other questions, but that's besides the point).

That said, Tsukihime also exists in the exact same world as Mahou Tsukai no Yorou and Clock Tower 2015. And since Touka is the one who makes Shirous body in Heavens Feel, that should make it clear people from Tsukihime worlds can exist in Fate worlds and vice versa.
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Old 2021-06-09, 15:12   Link #34267
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So there could be a Lostbelt where DAAs have HGWs for fun and profit...
Unlikely, the DAA as an organization doesn't come into existence in worlds with a strong counterforce. Meaning if the world is strong enough to summon servants naturally, the counter force will make sure the DAA members don't get strong enough to form the group. (ie Eddy killing Roa in fate timelines. Zepia staying as sane as a Atlas mage normally is because yes the world's doomed but not hopelessly so) If the world doesn't summon servants naturally no one has the info to model the HGW summons.
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Old 2021-06-09, 15:32   Link #34268
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
HGW?
Holy Grail War.

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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Arthur isn't on the Throne in the first place, he's the actual person traveling the multiverse iirc. We can summon him because the Fate system (Chaldea's summoning system) is utter bullshit and can basically create Servants out of whole cloth as long as it's been observed once. See also Saber Alter and Jeanne Alter, who originally didn't exist as separate entities on the Throne.
What about the Prototype HGW? Wasn't he a Servant then?
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Old 2021-06-09, 15:41   Link #34269
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Holy Grail War.



What about the Prototype HGW? Wasn't he a Servant then?
I don't think the Prototype timeline is in Proper Human History. It works off completely different rules from the rest of Nasuverse. Proto Gil can actually destroy the world with his NP, which means the Counter Force isn't there.
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Old 2021-06-09, 17:05   Link #34270
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I don't think the Prototype timeline is in Proper Human History. It works off completely different rules from the rest of Nasuverse. Proto Gil can actually destroy the world with his NP, which means the Counter Force isn't there.
The counter force would only activate as a last resort though. Otherwise, Tamamo would have been killed by the counter force, not Emperor Toba's Army.
3 Tails Tamamo is already more powerful than Gil, and we are talking about the nine tailed one here...
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Old 2021-06-09, 17:24   Link #34271
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The counter force would only activate as a last resort though. Otherwise, Tamamo would have been killed by the counter force, not Emperor Toba's Army.
3 Tails Tamamo is already more powerful than Gil, and we are talking about the nine tailed one here...
Proto Gil's Noble Phatasm summons a flood that can literally destroy the entire world. As in boom, all life is gone.

The Counter Force explicitly wouldn't allow that in Proper Human History.

Tamamo was never a threat to the entire planet, just the people attacking her (and the country she led to ruin, but that was through trickery)
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Old 2021-06-09, 17:30   Link #34272
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Proto Gil's Noble Phatasm summons a flood that can literally destroy the entire world. As in boom, all life is gone.

The Counter Force explicitly wouldn't allow that in Proper Human History.

Tamamo was never a threat to the entire planet, just the people attacking her (and the country she led to ruin, but that was through trickery)
She was never a threat to Humanity because she choose not to be one. By possibility though, she was most definitely a threat, which FGO tamamo even says as a my room sentence.
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Old 2021-06-09, 17:34   Link #34273
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She was never a threat to Humanity because she choose not to be one. By possibility though, she was most definitely a threat, which FGO tamamo even says as a my room sentence.
That's correct. She could have turned into a Beast if she wanted....which the Counter Force would have reacted to by summoning a Grand (probably Seimei tbh)

I'm not saying she wasn't powerful, just that the safety measures in place in the normal Nasuverse aren't there in Prototype
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Old 2021-06-09, 19:54   Link #34274
Endscape
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Fate Hollow Ataraxia. There's a future where Shirou and Luvia are hunting Dead Apostles with Shiki.
I know the scene you're talking about, but I don't recall Shiki being involved.

Quote:
Wut? Brunstead is dead in all timelines, Zelretch killing him is what spurred the creation of Arc and Altourge. Hell, him knowing he'd get killed is the reason the Dead Apostles exist.
Brunestud is not completely dead in Tsukihime timelines. The whole point of Arcuied and Altrouge is to create a body he can possess.


Quote:
Bruh

They're talking about it being a meta space where "main characters" can't interact, it has nothing to do with actual canon. That's a joke scene.
Jokes are deepest lore.
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Old 2021-06-09, 20:04   Link #34275
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That's correct. She could have turned into a Beast if she wanted....which the Counter Force would have reacted to by summoning a Grand (probably Seimei tbh)

I'm not saying she wasn't powerful, just that the safety measures in place in the normal Nasuverse aren't there in Prototype
Seinei isn't a grand though, and I doubt the Counter force would make him one either, given his uhm... antics...
By what we know, even Tamamo has a higher chance to become a grand than him. (And yes, she doesn't have mystic eyes, but she can see into the future regardless...)

I think for Tamamo it would probably be Orion, as sniping her from afar seems to be the key to victory here... Or Solomon, as Merlin isn't actually Grand, and Caster Gil is kind of a joke.

Counter Force:
The counter force only reacts as last resort, in Prototype, Arthur is there and very capable of defeating Gil.
Just think about HF. Dark Sakura is more than enough reason to dispatch at least a counter guardian, and yet, it didn't happen. - In fact we know that it could happen as Emiya has seen this exact event before, meaning he is either from a HF version where Sakura went full dark, or the counter guardian who got dispatched against a similar event.

E: Going by whats being said almost everywhere there already is a rather Dormant Beast Tamamo/ Amaterasu, I still don't see why people insist that thing in CCC was Amaterasu, as she never actually said her name and it leaves actually more room for her to be 9tails Tamamo than Amaterasu. - At least going by the Translation I saw.
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Old 2021-06-09, 20:55   Link #34276
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I know the scene you're talking about, but I don't recall Shiki being involved.
He was supposed to be there too, though they may have made it a kind of glancing mention like they do for Touka in Heavens Feel.

My memory is kinda vague, the only reason I remember that part is because a friend and I kept joking about the fights they'd get into.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Brunestud is not completely dead in Tsukihime timelines. The whole point of Arcuied and Altrouge is to create a body he can possess.
Nah, he's still dead. The only thing left is his Reality Marble that creates Dead Apostles.

The Dead Apostles and therefore Brunstead (who created them) still exist in the Fate timelines, they just aren't as organized/powerful

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Jokes are deepest lore.
You're not wrong but the joke in that scene is that the main characters can't interact, it doesn't involve their eyes
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Old 2021-06-09, 21:01   Link #34277
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Seinei isn't a grand though, and I doubt the Counter force would make him one either, given his uhm... antics...
By what we know, even Tamamo has a higher chance to become a grand than him. (And yes, she doesn't have mystic eyes, but she can see into the future regardless...)

I think for Tamamo it would probably be Orion, as sniping her from afar seems to be the key to victory here... Or Solomon, as Merlin isn't actually Grand, and Caster Gil is kind of a joke.

Counter Force:
The counter force only reacts as last resort, in Prototype, Arthur is there and very capable of defeating Gil.
Just think about HF. Dark Sakura is more than enough reason to dispatch at least a counter guardian, and yet, it didn't happen. - In fact we know that it could happen as Emiya has seen this exact event before, meaning he is either from a HF version where Sakura went full dark, or the counter guardian who got dispatched against a similar event.

E: Going by whats being said almost everywhere there already is a rather Dormant Beast Tamamo/ Amaterasu, I still don't see why people insist that thing in CCC was Amaterasu, as she never actually said her name and it leaves actually more room for her to be 9tails Tamamo than Amaterasu. - At least going by the Translation I saw.
I said Seimei because he's basically Japanese Merlin and apparently could have dealt with LB 5.5 by himself. That said, which Grand is involved doesn't really matter.

And no, the Counter Force doesn't react in FSN because Angra is interfering. The same way most antagonists trying to do something big in the Nasuverse find some way around it before getting started.

Besides, its restrictions on destroying the planet are much more specific. Like in Shinjuku they go into detail how even if you could gather enough energy to do it the planet would just not allow the Phenomenon to take place. It would have deleted the asteroid or diverted it manually outside of it being a Singularity totally cut off from the world.

Gil actually successfully fires his world flooding NP. Again, it's something that flat out can't happen in the rest of Nasuverse.
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Old 2021-06-09, 22:01   Link #34278
kagato3
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I don't think the Prototype timeline is in Proper Human History. It works off completely different rules from the rest of Nasuverse. Proto Gil can actually destroy the world with his NP, which means the Counter Force isn't there.
It's a Proper Human History. We have a boat load of servants that remember that HGW at least to the degree that the extra ones remember that timeline.

As for if the counterforce is there or not remember if he doesn't destroy the world with the NP we have no clue if wouldn't trigger the counterforce if he tried. The CF does as little as posable to fix problems and is sort of outside of time.
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Old 2021-06-09, 22:49   Link #34279
Endscape
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He was supposed to be there too, though they may have made it a kind of glancing mention like they do for Touka in Heavens Feel.

My memory is kinda vague, the only reason I remember that part is because a friend and I kept joking about the fights they'd get into.
Really don't recall anything like that in that scene.

Quote:
Nah, he's still dead. The only thing left is his Reality Marble that creates Dead Apostles.

The Dead Apostles and therefore Brunstead (who created them) still exist in the Fate timelines, they just aren't as organized/powerful
He's dead, but his spirit remains. The whole reason he left behind his Reality Marble is to eventually create someone he can successfully possess and return to life. In Fate timelines, he's 100% gone, no coming back.
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Old 2021-06-09, 23:04   Link #34280
XFire
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Really don't recall anything like that in that scene.
I do, but the point is moot either way since the reason I brought it up was that people from one "side" still exist in the other.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
He's dead, but his spirit remains. The whole reason he left behind his Reality Marble is to eventually create someone he can successfully possess and return to life. In Fate timelines, he's 100% gone, no coming back.
He still does that in the Fate timeline. That Reality Marble is what creates Dead Apostles. No Reality Marble, no Dead Apostles. And the Dead Apostles still exist in the Fate timelines, as seen in Zero among other places.

Edit: should probably clarify that it does so through the creation of the True Ancestors, who create the Dead Apostles
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