[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Bluemail]

I don't actually believe Ronove being George in that scene, but I just threw that into the discussion.

I too noticed how George's talk with Gaap might have been directly with Shannon. It does fit better than her being Jessica. But Beatrice and Gaap's relationship is a bit similar to Shannon and Jessica's. I don't think it would be too far-fetched to think that Gaap would be some kind of representative of Jessica-as-accomplice, even if not in the fight scene of EP4. George is more suspicious, but they might both be in it. Though I don't like how much it's going to the direction that almost everyone is taking part in it.


Random joke theory time:
You remember anime and game adaptions having a slim George in them?
Of course REAL George is fat in both. The adaptions use an alternate timeline where Kanon is impersonating George in the adaptions using glasses (foreshadowed in EP6 naming George Kanon, and the EP2 thing about Kanon in someone's earlier post). Kanon actually exists! Shannon is probably still trans-meido when Kanon and George appear in the same place. Maybe he actually has a pillow under his shirt in the original versions too, which would make this an universal theory.

[AuraTwilight]

Or George never came to the island. George died of diabetes and Eva and Hideyoshi had to hire a stand-in.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or George never came to the island. George died of diabetes and Eva and Hideyoshi had to hire a stand-in.

Correction to the last post, real George WAS fat in both before dying of diabetes. Kanon or some other impersonator works. Maybe Okonogi lent young Amakusa to Eva and gave him a secret mission to wipe the Ushiromiyas out of existence.
To be continued in When They Cry 5, Yamainu no Naku Koro ni...

[Cao Ni Ma]

If I was writing umineko I'd definitely have two sets of sprites for George. Normal fat George (Fatter than he normally is in the original sprites) and slim-fit martial artist George for the fantasy scenes. Also, flat as a board Jessica and more voluptuous Jessica for the fantasy scenes.

Or George never came to the island. George died of diabetes and Eva and Hideyoshi had to hire a stand-in.

*Eva in her death bed next to Ange*
Eva- George! If you hadn't eaten those cakes

[Cao Ni Ma]

Reading some old things, particularly the Witches Tanabata, is Maria's god complex foreshadowed here? Or is it referring to another girl? Why would you even add that blurb there, seems out of place.

[AuraTwilight]

The girl is heavily implied to be Miyo Takano from Higurashi.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The girl is heavily implied to be Miyo Takano from Higurashi.

Ah that makes more sense, didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to Kai.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by goldendust

Though couldn't that just mean that people seeing golden butterflies in the story, it just means that it is a fantasy scene? Have they appeared anywhere else?

In EP1 Kanon saw golden butterflies during his rant against Beatrice, it either implies that he's going insane or that he's simply mistaking it for something else, such as smoke and embers coming from Kinzo's burning corpse. Before that, Shannon presumably noticed a golden butterfly flying passed her, there is nothing else indicating her going insane, though.

In any other episode, golden butterflies would basically appear anywhere, so if they are indication of insanity, then basically everybody's insane... which could explain alot.

[Kealym]

Pretty sure we can just take the servant's word for it that the golden butterflies signify "Beatrice's presence", and serve to notify us of her obfuscating fantasy narrative.

The only people who seem to clearly become a bit unhinged due to the stress, on the gameboard, are Natsuhi / Eva in Legend and Turn, and probably Yasu in Alliance. :-/

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

In EP1 Kanon saw golden butterflies during his rant against Beatrice, it either implies that he's going insane or that he's simply mistaking it for something else, such as smoke and embers coming from Kinzo's burning corpse. Before that, Shannon presumably noticed a golden butterfly flying passed her, there is nothing else indicating her going insane, though.

In any other episode, golden butterflies would basically appear anywhere, so if they are indication of insanity, then basically everybody's insane... which could explain alot.

I don't think Ryukishi meant that in the scenes where people see golden butterflies means the people are going insane. It's more of a sarcastic comment that if they really saw golden butterflies they would be going insane. But they never really saw any because they were sane enough people, meaning that the scenes with butterflies didn't happen exactly as we see them. Well, that should be obvious by now.

[Oblivion]

In episode 7 during the Tea Party, who was the game master? Bern says that she wasn't the game master.

[Kealym]

Well, either :

1. That wasn't even a game (a valid view for several reasons), just a tasteless ... display, or
2. Bitch be lying

Take your pick?

[Kylon99]

I forget how the scene goes, but didn't they hear Eva-Beatrice's trademark line at the beginning of the play or something? All I remember now is that that is the clue we're supposed to use when Bernkastel said she wasn't really the storyteller this time around.

So, that's what leads me and some others here to believe that EP7 was more a story from Eva's diary or something.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I forget how the scene goes, but didn't they hear Eva-Beatrice's trademark line at the beginning of the play or something? All I remember now is that that is the clue we're supposed to use when Bernkastel said she wasn't really the storyteller this time around.

At the beginning of the play, when the stage is still dark, we hear Eva-Beatrice's trademark line and some stuff that is definitely in her manner of speech. Also Ange responds that it is definitely "that old hag's", "aunt Eva's" voice and that she should just show herself. We also know that the spirit of Yasu has already been excorcised from Clair, thus she as a vessel would be free.

Bern's comment that their is no gamemaster is way too much used as a weapon against Ange, even keeping it from her until it really hurts her, so I think it's actually true. It being a scene from Eva's diary is quite likely,especially it shows almost oly scenes from Eva's perspective or guessable area and also shows events that are beyond Beatrice's passing.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

In episode 7 during the Tea Party, who was the game master? Bern says that she wasn't the game master.

I personally think she's lying, or at the very least is stretching the truth, as in her last conversation with Featherine she claims "I never got to do any real Gamemastering anyway", despite being the Gamemaster of the MAIN part of EP7.

Moreover, the Tea Party wasn't really a Game so much as a SHOW, so there's quite a few ways she can claim she's not the Gamemaster.

[J the Drafter]

Well, Bern really didn't do much gamemastering. She created the patchwork kakera with Lion and Yasu co-existing, and she watched Will solve Beatrice's game.

Incidentally, I have an idea for why Yasu started dressing up as Kanon. Imaginary beings and items need to be acknowledged by at least one outside observer or they stay as mere delusions, right? Yasu wanted to validate the truth of Kanon's existence by making other people believe and act like he existed. True, the motive does depend on Yasu's nonstandard frame of mind, but it's an action that's in-character for her.

Someone else came up with this argument for how no one was able to notice the illusion, which I'm taking and modifying, but I can't remember the name of this person. The theory for how says that Kanon spent a lot of time serving Kinzo, and that when he was busy working as a regular servant, Shannon was busy serving Kinzo instead. Both 'Kanon' and Shannon could take turns working privately with Kumasawa or Genji to stay out of sight. Lastly, if you make Kanon a servant who only works at the island on some days, and have Genji claim that Shannon's schooling has been expanded to the point where she's away from the island more frequently, you may be able to create a Shkanon ruse capable of fooling Natsuhi and Jessica.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, Bern really didn't do much gamemastering. She created the patchwork kakera with Lion and Yasu co-existing, and she watched Will solve Beatrice's game.

She also wrote the scenario, controlled the actions of every character aside from Will and possibly Lion, and controlled the flow of time and space like a god. What more do you want?

Incidentally, I have an idea for why Yasu started dressing up as Kanon. Imaginary beings and items need to be acknowledged by at least one outside observer or they stay as mere delusions, right? Yasu wanted to validate the truth of Kanon's existence by making other people believe and act like he existed. True, the motive does depend on Yasu's nonstandard frame of mind, but it's an action that's in-character for her.

I agree.

Someone else came up with this argument for how no one was able to notice the illusion, which I'm taking and modifying, but I can't remember the name of this person. The theory for how says that Kanon spent a lot of time serving Kinzo, and that when he was busy working as a regular servant, Shannon was busy serving Kinzo instead. Both 'Kanon' and Shannon could take turns working privately with Kumasawa or Genji to stay out of sight. Lastly, if you make Kanon a servant who only works at the island on some days, and have Genji claim that Shannon's schooling has been expanded to the point where she's away from the island more frequently, you may be able to create a Shkanon ruse capable of fooling Natsuhi and Jessica.

You may be referring to my idea, being that since they're supposed to be different servants, and servants have shifts where they can serve weeks or months on the island and then weeks and months OFF the island, and given that the conference is noted as a SPECIAL instance requiring them both there, that the two are usually apart save for rare times in the year where they overlap. Yasu can spend several weeks as one character or the other and say that the other is on leave.

[J the Drafter]

I was thinking along the lines of creating a story for everyone to act out, though your points about Bern writing the setting and controlling the characters had slipped my mind. In Bern's game, though, everyone simply stands around (maybe talking) until Will and Lion show up to talk to them. In the other games, by contrast, there's a definite plot.

[LyricalAura]

I've been working on a translation of that interview that was linked in the Translation Project thread. I'm not finished yet, but here's a rather interesting part as a teaser, talking about the scene in EP8 of Beatrice and Battler jumping in the ocean. The interviewer is Ryuukishi's editor, incidentally.

Spoiler for May 2011 interview (just a small part):

— If it were me, I’d have wanted Beatrice to come with me. She should have come with him, right? Because Battler worked so hard to understand everything. Looking at it from Beatrice’s side, was there a part of her that couldn’t allow someone to forgive her sins?

Ryuu: No, that’s not it. This could turn into an answer so I don’t want to say too much, but if “Beatrice and Battler will be together for the rest of their lives,” then that also means that “Shannon and George, Kanon and Jessica can never be together” would be established. For each of the pairs’ loves to be fulfilled, in reality, none of them can be.

— Oh, I get it!

Ryuu: So when Battler said “Let’s leave the island” and escaped with Beatrice, at that moment, her feelings for him were fulfilled. It meant that their souls were bound together. But in that situation, the man is saying, “I want to be with you for the rest of our lives.”

— I understand.

Ryuu: But from the woman’s standpoint, just by being promised “I want to be with you,” her soul’s goal was achieved.

— It’s so sad. If she did anything more… That’s what you mean, right?

Ryuu: If she actually left the island and “they were together for the rest of their lives” became an established fact, then within Beatrice, it would lead to the loves of the other two couples being denied. In order for those two couples to remain happy, the cat box named Beatrice has to remain shut. But if Battler took her away from the island, then that cat box would be opened… No, at this point I want to be evasive.

— Just fix it up for the galley. (laugh)

Ryuu: If it was just the two of us chatting, Hirota-san, I’d go ahead and tell you, but I really don’t want that sort of thing to be printed.

— I understand. But thanks to that, I feel like I understand things on a pretty deep level. Because of her feelings, her love, she absolutely can’t leave the island.
Ryuu: When Battler said “Let’s leave the island” and escaped with her on the boat, in Beato’s heart, she’d already reached her goal.

— Because after all, Beatrice is a witch who can only live on Rokkenjima… She can’t manifest her magic anywhere else. The kiss scene at the end was her final magic, wasn’t it?

Ryuu: Yes, that’s exactly right. At that moment, her love was complete. Beatrice was able to imagine, “Ah, the person named Beatrice and Battler were able to be together for the rest of their lives.” So that was enough. And because continuing any further would open the cat box that must not be opened, it was better to let it all fade out as a beautiful memory.

— Out of all the scenes you’ve written up till now, I think that one was the most beautiful.

Ryuu: Depending on whether or not you understand why she decided to jump into the sea, your impression of that scene will be completely different. In that sense, I think that anyone who doesn’t understand that scene surely didn’t understand the story either.

— As a man, I don’t want to understand that part after all. I understand her feelings, but precisely because of that, I don’t want to understand them. So keeping those thoughts in mind, I’d want her to be quiet and come with me.
Ryuu: Men are temperamental, aren’t they? They can’t accept something like “I don’t need a body because our souls are joined together.”

— I sure can’t accept it.

Ryuu: A man lives for the purpose of leaving behind descendants, so it’s a problem if the woman doesn’t have a body. But I think that from a woman's perspective, the body is just an appendage for the soul, so if their souls are bound together, then even in the worst case where their bodies are torn apart, they can still be together, so it’s alright. I might be putting women on a pedestal excessively, but at least in that world’s values, that’s how it is. I don’t know whether or not Battler understood that. But as a result, he dove into the ocean. A few years later, he was pulled out of the sea with no memories and became Hachijou Tohya. His body was Battler’s, but the heart was missing; perhaps that shows how much Beatrice treasured connections of the soul. Perhaps the fact that he didn’t recognize himself as Battler was an offering to Beatrice… But it’s something I’d like the readers to consider on their own. It’s not my place to say, and I don’t want them to think of what I said before as a “final answer.”

— The answer is a matter of one’s “way of life”, isn’t it? The reader’s, I mean.

Ryuu: Right.

— Then, I think all of them are correct. So it’s okay if there’s someone who thinks like this, right? “Beatrice really is cruel for not coming along in that situation.” (laugh)

Ryuu: Hahaha. Maybe the difference in how much someone does or doesn’t cry during the last scene is an indicator of how much they were able to understand the thoughts of someone with a benevolent thought process like Beatrice after four years of serialization.

— Beatrice really did become complete at that time.

Ryuu: The world inside her became complete, yes. Although it’s too bad for Battler.

— In that case, Battler must have also been thinking, “I understand, but…”

Ryuu: When Beatrice jumped in the ocean and Battler went in after her, that was probably an unexpected joy for her. So that was a scene where she was so happy she could die.

— Even though it was an unnecessary addition… It was still a wonderful unnecessary addition.

[Nachtprophet]

Seriously? Ryuukishi seriously said that?!

That would make Yasu's entire motivation to get a declaration of love from Battler, George and Jessica and then kill herself.

Ryuukishi thinks women don't want to live with their loved ones. I think that dequalifies him to talk about any emotion ever.