Macross Delta - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[cyberdemon]

I have a guess on how the whole nuke thing played out. Windermere independence forces weren't supposed to have a nuke which makes me think that the one who gave it to them was probably Epsilon as a medium for UN people while the independence group was also working with them (guessing Roid was one of them). Epsilon then tipped off Hayate's father to it's existence and he went to try to quietly keep it from being used because if he told others he was afraid that might attack in full force and the independence group would use it.

However it was a ploy by the 3 sides and Hayate's father likely became the first victim of the VAR as a test subject by the group that he was trying to negotiate with. My guess is that they intended for him to use the bomb on the ruins to bring them about like those UN guys later did on Ragna. However their control was weak due to lack of knowledge on how to fully harness the VAR so he resisted to an extent and tried to drop the bomb as far as he could manage from civilian groups. While it still killed many, it saved many more who would have gotten caught if he dropped it on the ruin.

They failed to use it on the ruin but the anger it caused the Windermereans gave them an excuse to keep testing the ruins and developing the use of the VAR which developed into the situation that we see today.

[Thess]

The nuke was brought there by the NUNS. That's why they covered up with a lie because they did something illegal and against their own legislation. And based on what the Windermere manga is telling us...

Spoiler for not sure if this is a spoiler because most likely will be revealed next episode:

The NUNS forces stationed there were exploiting Windermere and appropriating of their fold quartz which is the component for dimensional eaters weaponry. Looks like there're several Leon clones in our local NUNS hierarchy trying to pull what happened in Frontier and the Vajra. It would explain why they were invasive with this planet, stomping over their population and culture. Now it all fits in why they didn't care about Ragna or Voldor which were handled with more leisure (up to a point - how NUNS bombed the Ragna ruins to test an experiment). Windermere has fold quartz and it must be fairly common for a couple of kids (the twins, young and innocent) to be selling pendants made of them in the streets. Probably how Hayate's father purchased it: same design and he liked hanging out with kids. It's all starting to fit.

I do find deliciously wicked their soldiers are now being mind controlled by the very apples that they once mocked and looked down. I wish they had given us the backstory in the anime because I could have called it "The Revenge of the Apples" or something equally as ironic. Talk about poetic justice. I understand they are trying to play the whole "mystery" plot to unravel the answers, but a lot of the anime would have been appreciated if they had incorporated this information sooner. No doubt they'll add it in the upcoming episodes, but it's still irritating to have missed the nuances of why it had to be apples after all.

[darkplatform]

So Hayate's father was the first infected with Var? I feel it would make a better revelation trying to prove him innocent just to find out he did it of his own volition at the end.

How does the Var mind control even works in detail, has the manga explain it yet?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

So Hayate's father was the first infected with Var? I feel it would make a better revelation trying to prove him innocent just to find out he did it of his own volition at the end.

How does the Var mind control even works in detail, has the manga explain it yet?

Interviews and post Voldor episode elaborates Fold Bacteria growth due to Seidznole being the reason for Var. Only recently that Kaos noticed Biological Fold Waves used by Windermere cause Var victims to go berserk or be under mind control.

Note Vajra use V-Type Fold Bacteria for their hivemind. Macross Galaxy's hivemind implant plan isn't really a group mentality but one or several persons controlling the entire network.

Grace sad something along the lines they are accomplishing what the Protoculture could not.

[Father Hentai]

Spoiler for Just speculation:

Originally Posted by Thess

The nuke was brought there by the NUNS. That's why they covered up with a lie because they did something illegal and against their own legislation. And based on what the Windermere manga is telling us...

Spoiler for not sure if this is a spoiler because most likely will be revealed next episode:

The NUNS forces stationed there were exploiting Windermere and appropriating of their fold quartz which is the component for dimensional eaters weaponry. Looks like there're several Leon clones in our local NUNS hierarchy trying to pull what happened in Frontier and the Vajra. It would explain why they were invasive with this planet, stomping over their population and culture. Now it all fits in why they didn't care about Ragna or Voldor which were handled with more leisure (up to a point - how NUNS bombed the Ragna ruins to test an experiment). Windermere has fold quartz and it must be fairly common for a couple of kids (the twins, young and innocent) to be selling pendants made of them in the streets. Probably how Hayate's father purchased it: same design and he liked hanging out with kids. It's all starting to fit.

I do find deliciously wicked their soldiers are now being mind controlled by the very apples that they once mocked and looked down. I wish they had given us the backstory in the anime because I could have called it "The Revenge of the Apples" or something equally as ironic. Talk about poetic justice. I understand they are trying to play the whole "mystery" plot to unravel the answers, but a lot of the anime would have been appreciated if they had incorporated this information sooner. No doubt they'll add it in the upcoming episodes, but it's still irritating to have missed the nuances of why it had to be apples after all.

I'd go so far to say that the NUN had a research facility on windermere that experimented with VAR on soldiers. The experiments failed and the var broke out.
To avoid more casualties wright was assigned to drop the bomb no the facility.
I don't think that NUN is out for profit but more about research results.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Spoiler for Just speculation:

I'd go so far to say that the NUN had a research facility on windermere that experimented with VAR on soldiers. The experiments failed and the var broke out.
To avoid more casualties wright was assigned to drop the bomb no the facility.
I don't think that NUN is out for profit but more about research results.

Spoiler for Macross Extra:

I haven't really followed this manga since the heroine's dad Char reveal, but the first Var experiences were in hands of humans too. I'm not sure they were experimenting var here, though, because they really didn't care about the apples. They looked down Windermeres and treated them like crap because they were peaceful apple farmers. That kind of xenophobic and ethnocentric behavior you expect in any militaristic and imperialistic force.

What they wanted was their fold quartz which ties in with Leon-types of Frontier. They seemed eager to get the rid of the Aerial Knights, sending them all (including the kids) to the other side of the Galaxy to leave Windermere completely defenseless and under their control. That's why Ernest was telling Gramia about NUNS abusive intentions, iirc: because they intended to deploy Windermere only defense and leave it at the mercy of the abusive and greedy NUNS forces stationed there.

It's kind of a mess.

But I don't think that VAR played a role here. At least not hinted any side was even remotely experimenting (if it was, maybe it was an accident like Wright had an apple breakfast and drank water and booom). It does seem like they rightfully wanted to kick out some abusive invaders who were mistreating them and the NUNS were unwilling to give up the monopolization of their fold quartz. At least from what's been revealed so far. I can speculate Wright wanted to steal the bomb so the NUNS forces wouldn't use it on Windermere and something happened (the whole accidental varred). This led Windermerians to believe they were even betrayed by the one Earthling they trusted which would have destroyed their hopes for understanding (some classic Macross misunderstanding).

In perspective, it's frankly understandable they would try to dominate the cluster and kick them out: they were bombed by them and given an embargo to weaken them economically while telling all their neighbors lies about the bomb. They could be in constant danger of invasion because they are surrounded by the enemy bases in neighboring planets, furthermore, they only have experience of NUNS as some monstrous overlords who would disrespect their culture and steal their resources, without any regard for their lives or their planet. Why would they even assume it was different in other fold quartz-less planets? The logical path would be try to control the cluster and kick out the NUNS forces of their area is the only real way they would feel safe and avoid a possible invasion. Politically speaking, with what is slowly been revealed, their war in the cluster makes absolute sense. Yes VAR is an awful method, but they lack firepower and it's the poetic justice of using apples against those who mocked them in the past. It also avoids blood spill as far as they know is the lesser evil. The justifications of protoculture master race are nonsense, but I can easily understand Keith's pragmatic POV right now (as I do with Cassim's or Herrman's). This was the only real way to assure the safety of his planet, IMO. Unfortunately, the things were really bad. Sucks for the planets who were dragged into this, but they were really in precarious circumstances, IMO.

Now Roid's galaxy conquest is another matter. Just like the whole rubbish about the heirs of protoculture. Still let's see what is Roid's endgame for this.

I still think the anime should actually bother to make more flashbacks to not just flesh out some characters like Keith or Roid, or hell, Bogue and the twins who desperately need this, but because it shows how complex the circumstances are. There are a lot of interesting politics and geopolitics which is really lost under vague portrayals and half information.