The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 14]

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Akka

When saying that E8 was a mistake, I think it's not really "they didn't manage to do what they aimed for", but "they aimed for something they shouldn't have".
Or, to be even more precise, "they aimed for something but made a mistake in how they have done it".

I am sorry to say that I couldn't interpret your point as anything but "The customer is always right".
The reason you think KyoAni "shouldn't" have made Endless Eight, is that you are not happy about it. The entire view centered on the point that KyoAni should placed your desires above theirs.

Which, as I kept saying, is not at all wrong. You are free to hate Endless Eight as much as you like, and it is certainly justifiable.

But there is a difference between not getting what you want, and claiming KyoAni had "made a mistake".

Should or shouldn't have KyoAni made Endless Eight? I believe that is arguable. From your view, it shouldn't be made if it is not a marketable product. From my view, it should be made as long as the studio wished to and the sponsors are prepared to absorb the losses.

I guess I am old-fashioned; I want the studios and original authors to enjoy making the anime. That they should make what their hearts told them to make. To put it another way, all the things we love about Haruhi, the minor details, the faithfulness, the creation of faces and names of everyone in Haruhi's class, the participation of the author; all this are only possible because they WANT to do it.

Because of this, I can't say it is better if Endless Eight didn't get created. For all we know, this might sap the morale of the entire studio, and they might stop caring about Haruhi all together.

Endless Eight existed because KyoAni cared about what they are doing. They decided to do something crazy, because doing crazy things is what got them this far to begin with. A "normal" Haruhi production crew could not have created the Haruhi we know and love. I don't want to sacrifice that just to cut out Endless Eight. They deserve to have some fun too.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am sorry to say that I couldn't interpret your point as anything but "The customer is always right".
The reason you think KyoAni "shouldn't" have made Endless Eight, is that you are not happy about it. The entire view centered on the point that KyoAni should placed your desires above theirs.

Which, as I kept saying, is not at all wrong. You are free to hate Endless Eight as much as you like, and it is certainly justifiable.

But there is a difference between not getting what you want, and claiming KyoAni had "made a mistake".

Should or shouldn't have KyoAni made Endless Eight? I believe that is arguable. From your view, it shouldn't be made if it is not a marketable product. From my view, it should be made as long as the studio wished to and the sponsors are prepared to absorb the losses.

I guess I am old-fashioned; I want the studios and original authors to enjoy making the anime. That they should make what their hearts told them to make. To put it another way, all the things we love about Haruhi, the minor details, the faithfulness, the creation of faces and names of everyone in Haruhi's class, the participation of the author; all this are only possible because they WANT to do it.

Because of this, I can't say it is better if Endless Eight didn't get created. For all we know, this might sap the morale of the entire studio, and they might stop caring about Haruhi all together.

Endless Eight existed because KyoAni cared about what they are doing. They decided to do something crazy, because doing crazy things is what got them this far to begin with. A "normal" Haruhi production crew could not have created the Haruhi we know and love. I don't want to sacrifice that just to cut out Endless Eight. They deserve to have some fun too.

If I ever need a lawyer to defend me in court and make me sound good, I really want to hire you. Please take that as a compliment; it takes real skill to make the almost indefensible sound so wonderful and flowery like that.


I actually would say that the "the customer is always right" view is the old-fashioned view. This is the view that businesses have been taking for dozens, if not hundreds, of years. Most of the great businesses achieve great success through utilizing such an approach, at least up to a certain reasonable extent.


Of course I want animators of my favorite animes to enjoy doing their jobs. But I should hope that gaining such enjoyment doesn't require repetition for repetition's sake.

And, actually, I suspect that E8 may have been an awful chore and burden for some of the 'ground level' animators. You could tell that the artwork and animation teams were starting to sputter out a bit come the last two or three E8 iterations, which included such sequences as the Itsuki Esquire Watch commercial, and random shots of garbage on the ground.

I don't think that this was necessarily employee desire on the part of the penciling staff, of the inking staff, of the coloring team, etc... to do E8 eight times over. This is pure speculation, but I'm inclined to think that E8 was a top-down decision arising from some higher-up's creative fascination with numerology and finding a way to milk the franchise. The ground level animation staff may have been as much victims of it as we ourselves were... in which case, your defense of E8 is a darkly ironic one. It's also worth noting that the voice actors (and if we're going to consider the animators enjoyment, why not the voice actors?) were reportedly not too keen on Endless Eight. Haruhi's seiyu spoke disapprovingly of E8 after the fact, IIRC.


So... Endless Eight existed because somebody at KyoAni and/or Kadokawa thought it was a good idea for achieving some sort of goal. That's all, really, that can be definitively said. 'Caring' may have nothing to do with it. I certainly wouldn't call it 'caring' to want to stretch out the source material for the sheer purpose of stretching out the source material, which remains a very viable possibility for why E8 happened. And while it may be disrespectful to the fans to needlessly stretch out source material, I wouldn't call it 'crazy' either; it's a money-making scheme that's quite old itself.


KyoAni is a talented and artistic animation studio with dedicated professionals, and they deserve credit for the good that they've done (such as Haruhi 2006)... but it's not like they're the only good animation studio in the business. I seriously think that JC Staff's interpretation of Haruhi might be just as good as theirs if not better.


Endless Eight would have been better if it had been three or four episodes long... and this year would have been better if the remaining episodes had been given to Disappearance.

[Qilin]

Ah... Shamisen will forever be my favorite cat.

It's been a good season, I think, despite the whole Endless Eight issue and all. They wrapped up Sighs quite nicely, if I may add. I really did feel like I was rereading the novel while watching the last episode. Everything just felt nice. As for the ending of the episode, I'm surprised that they actually used the prologue of the novel as the epilogue. It was still entertaining nonetheless.

Though I certainly liked this season, the plot lacked a sense of urgency or crisis that added tension in the air. I would prefer a more exciting climax.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

KyoAni is a talented and artistic animation studio with dedicated professionals, and they deserve credit for the good that they've done (such as Haruhi 2006)... but it's not like they're the only good animation studio in the business. I seriously think that JC Staff's interpretation of Haruhi might be just as good as theirs if not better.

I have said all I have to say in the last post, but I do have to reply about JC Staff.

JC Staff was actually commissioned to adapt a franchise that is similar to Haruhi in potential; Zero no Tsukaima.
A light-novel series much like Haruhi, with a huge cast and complicate political, military, and moral undertones, Zero no Tsukaima was prompty cut to pieces by JC Staff until it becomes a generic harem comedy. All the issue of war, social class, and implications of what it means to be mages trained to KILL PEOPLE when the government told them to, gets pushed to the background and erased. The two main characters, who were suppose to progress into a proper romantic relationship, ended up getting stuck at the Tsundere stage and never went anywhere.

The complete disregard of the source material, means ZnT could no longer follow the novels, and it ended after the non-canon and pointless 2nd season.

Is that what you want Haruhi to be?

There are few studios who would follow the source material faithfully; JC Staff isn't one of them.

[Tornadium]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Ah... Shamisen will forever be my favorite cat.

It's been a good season, I think, despite the whole Endless Eight issue and all. They wrapped up Sighs quite nicely, if I may add. I really did feel like I was rereading the novel while watching the last episode. Everything just felt nice. As for the ending of the episode, I'm surprised that they actually used the prologue of the novel as the epilogue. It was still entertaining nonetheless.

Though I certainly liked this season, the plot lacked a sense of urgency or crisis that added tension in the air. I would prefer a more exciting climax.

Well remember it is a rerun.

They were limited in what they could do as they had already aired further than the story could possiby go for new content.

I must say putting the prologue at the END was a really nice touch. Not to mention that scene brought out Haruhi's deredere side which was really cute to see.

Hopefully this is all just building up to somthing more.

Oh and is it just me or is the anime REALLY starting to push for Haruhi x Kyon? Like a lot. I never noticed it before now but everyone has been saying how much it is pushing it now.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have said all I have to say in the last post, but I do have to reply about JC Staff.

JC Staff was actually commissioned to adapt a franchise that is similar to Haruhi in potential; Zero no Tsukaima.
A light-novel series much like Haruhi, with a huge cast and complicate political, military, and moral undertones, Zero no Tsukaima was prompty cut to pieces by JC Staff until it becomes a generic harem comedy.

I quite liked Zero no Tsukaima, and I don't agree with your assessment of it at all. I felt that the political, military, and moral undertones were all there, and to a satisfactory degree. In particular...

Spoiler for Zero no Tsukaima:

I particularly liked how Tabitha was handled; the anime really made me care about her character.

The complete disregard of the source material, means ZnT could no longer follow the novels, and it ended after the non-canon and pointless 2nd season.

I never watched the 2nd season, so I can't comment on that. However, I did very much enjoy the 1st season of ZnT.

In any event, my comment pertaining to JC Staff mostly relates to how I've been very happy and pleased with their Shakugan no Shana work. They generally know how to tell entertaining stories, and they can do very colorful and pleasing artwork and animation as well.

Also... how exactly is it being faithful to the source material to take a story that the author felt warranted 30 pages, and making 8 episodes out of it?

Would I like to see Haruhi handled the way that Shana was?

Maybe. It might very well have ended up being better than what this year ended up being.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Well now, what can I say about this...

The incessant meowing at the start was beautifully obnoxious...
Kyon lost an argument with a cat...
Moar eye beemz and biting...
Tsuruya being sneaky in the shadows... (Though I suspect it may have been Cardboard Cutout Tsuruya from a previous episode...)
Kyon was told he shouldn't trust anything he hears from any of the three. Nagato said it, so we should believe her, right? *winks at people who take absolutely everything she says as the absolute truth*
Proof that Episode 00 can't be placed next, as it actually takes place within this episode...
The Final Prologue of awesomeness...

However, there are a few minor pro... ah, screw it. I wish I could go back and do this with E8 VII and Sigh III, so I'm just going to give this a perfect 10.

[Tornadium]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Well now, what can I say about this...

The incessant meowing at the start was beautifully obnoxious...
Kyon lost an argument with a cat...
Moar eye beemz and biting...
Tsuruya being sneaky in the shadows... (Though I suspect it may have been Cardboard Cutout Tsuruya from a previous episode...)
Kyon was told he shouldn't trust anything he hears from any of the three. Nagato said it, so we should believe her, right? *winks at people who take absolutely everything she says as the absolute truth*
Proof that Episode 00 can't be placed next, as it actually takes place within this episode...
The Final Prologue of awesomeness...

However, there are a few minor pro... ah, screw it. I wish I could go back and do this with E8 VII and Sigh III, so I'm just going to give this a perfect 10.

Lazy.

I got to say though Sighs was much much better than the novel.

I got to say though the parts where Kyon was told to trust none of the 3 freaked me out a bit.

[Triple_R]

I really don't get why people liked having the Prologue at the end of the episode. Sure, if you're a novel fan, you can see around it, but for people unfamiliar with the novel, they're going to take it very differently from how the source material intended. This episode gives no indication whatsoever that this scene is a prologue scene. People only familiar with the anime will look at Haruhi's reaction here and think "Why is she getting so upset at Kyon's words here? He's only playing off of Haruhi's own script ideas that she's already used for the movie."

Simply put, the Prologue works much better as an actual Prologue.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Tornadium

Lazy.

Please don't say I am lazy... I'm actually just plain crazy.

Sorry, won't happen again, I promise.

*e* Actually I would've preferred the prologue being... at the beginning of a season. Shame the '06 team decided to go with post-Sigh material instead of covering Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody and Endless Eight, thus preventing that from happening, eh?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I quite liked Zero no Tsukaima, and I don't agree with your assessment of it at all. I felt that the political, military, and moral undertones were all there, and to a satisfactory degree. In particular...

Spoiler for Zero no Tsukaima:

I particularly liked how Tabitha was handled; the anime really made me care about her character.

I never watched the 2nd season, so I can't comment on that. However, I did very much enjoy the 1st season of ZnT.

In any event, my comment pertaining to JC Staff mostly relates to how I've been very happy and pleased with their Shakugan no Shana work. They generally know how to tell entertaining stories, and they can do very colorful and pleasing artwork and animation as well.

I am not interested in JC Staff telling interesting stories, I am interested in JC Staff adapting the interesting story they were GIVEN. If I remember correctly, Shakugan no Shana also suffered from the same problem that plagued ZnT, and had deviated significantly from canon. But since they WANT to use more novel material in the sequel, significant numbers of episodes had to be wasted to bend the plot back to its original direction. I am not certain if they succeeded.

Also... how exactly is it being faithful to the source material to take a story that the author felt warranted 30 pages, and make 8 episodes out of it?

When it does no harm to the canon storyline at all, and justifies a future event that is yet to be animated. It wasn't in the novels, but it was done with author approval.

There is something that JC Staff HAD done, that did get the original creator involved; Toradora.
Ironically, there is significant outcry from fans of the original, that the anime version has been condensed too much. Ironic, because this was done by the author's request; the author wanted the anime to finish at the same time as the novel. Once again, a case of "do you do what the fans want, or do what YOU what"?

JC Staff took some flak for doing what the author wanted for once, but they appeared to have made the right choice; the Tora Dora franchise, though relatively short, was well received.

So I guess what I want to say, is that JC Staff "could" make a good Haruhi, but if they do make a good Haruhi, they would have to do what the author wanted, which once again, put the "customer" second.

Would I like to see Haruhi handled the way that Shana was?

Maybe. It might very well have ended up being better than what this year ended up being.

In exchange, you would either get 12 episodes of non-canon plot bending to reach Disappearance, or never get to Disappearance at all. That's WAY worse.

[Tornadium]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I really don't get why people liked having the Prologue at the end of the episode. Sure, if you're a novel fan, you can see around it, but for people unfamiliar with the novel, they're going to take it very differently from how the source material intended. This episode gives no indication whatsoever that this scene is a prologue scene. People only familiar with the anime will look at Haruhi's reaction here and think "Why is she getting so upset at Kyon's words here? He's only playing off of Haruhi's own script ideas that she's already used for the movie."

Simply put, the Prologue works much better as an actual Prologue.

Well.

Personally from my perspective i'm not taking it as a prologue. The most important points from the prologue as far as character development goes are there regardless of where it is put in screening order.

Who knows though, Maybe it was put in there as an easter egg to see who would realise and who wouldn't.

Please don't say I am lazy... I'm actually just plain crazy.

Sorry, won't happen again, I promise.

*e* Actually I would've preferred the prologue being... at the beginning of a season. Shame the '06 team decided to go with post-Sigh material instead of covering Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody and Endless Eight, thus preventing that from happening, eh?

Heh,

Well this was a rerun and should have all been in the first season. They should have included it at the very end of TMoHS 1.

[Solachinx]

Sigh, we meet the end of Sigh and S1.2 with a satifactory conclusion.

Initially, I knew that this episode was going to be unusually long: afterall, we still had to get to Shamisen, The Soapbox of Itsuki Koizumi, and the ending itself.

So, we get to the Cats portion of the episode: personally, I think this was well done. I love the Cats meowing over the title screen, and I think Shamisen's presentation was pulled off well.

The montage sequence in the middle of the episode was nice as well: shows how much was shot but not included in the actual movie (the water guns, the green contact lense, etc.) Also gives a nice presentation of Haruhi's powers.

Then comes probably the darkest sequence in the stroy arc after Kyon Musou: The fact that everyone in the SOS Brigade, other than Haruhi and Kyon himself, cannot be trusted to tell the truth. The shadowed atmosphere really adds to the overall mood. I particularly like Yuki's; especially in the witch getup.

After Itsuki's second speech, Kyon finally has his Deus ex Machina moment for this arc and won't be returning again until the next one (seriously, God must love Kyon... oh, wait). And it was accompanied with visuals of being able to see across the universe and epic music to go with it.

The solution!: Haruhi makes a disclaimer. Ah, TMoHS; thinking of mundane solutions for sticky situations

And so, the movie magically edits itself. Maybe the warriors did it before turning to dust.

So, the arc ends with it's begining; I particularly loved the little thing with Haruhi and Kyon nodding, smiling and going "hm" before Haruhi bitches him out, and that in itself was epic.

So, all in all, KyoAni has made a novel that many despised (myself not included) into an epic 5-episode story arc that seems to have given the fanbase hope again (or they were happy that it was something that wasn't E8).

Overall, a 9/10.

Now, on to The Melancholy of John Smith!

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... The edit was in response to Triple_R.

[Tornadium]

Originally Posted by Solachinx

After Itsuki's second speech, Kyon finally has his Deus ex Machina moment for this arc and won't be returning again until the next one (seriously, God must love Kyon... oh, wait). And it was accompanied with visuals of being able to see across the universe and epic music to go with it.

It wouldn't be Haruhi without everyone pointing out the obvious to Kyon.

He is so delusional.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am not interested in JC Staff telling interesting stories, I am interested in JC Staff adapting the interesting story they were GIVEN.

Well, this is simply a difference of opinion, Vallen. Not everybody cares about how faithful an adaptation is. Typically, I watch an anime before I become familiar with its source material. So, for me, it's my appreciation of the anime in and of itself that is key.

If I remember correctly, Shakugan no Shana also suffered from the same problem that plagued ZnT, and had deviated significantly from canon. But since they WANT to use more novel material in the sequel, significant numbers of episodes had to be wasted to bend the plot back to its original direction.

Who says they are wasted episodes? If the majority of Shana fans end up enjoying them, how are they wasted episodes?

And I didn't see any "problem" being "suffered" by Shakugan no Shana here as it pertains to the anime original plot. I typically found it very dramatic, entertaining, intense, suspenseful, and well done. So what if it diverged from the source material, as long as that source material story is eventually done?

When it does no harm to the canon storyline at all, etc...

Actually, that's a bit debatable. One of the effects of E8 is that it had a dramatic impact on how many people viewed the character of Kyon; basically, it made him appear hopelessly lazy and/or incompetent in the eyes of many fans, whereas the novel story alone likely never had that impact since you only saw the final iteration.

Akka, in particular, did an excellent job of explaining his position here, IIRC.

So I guess what I want to say, is that JC Staff "could" make a good Haruhi, but if they do make a good Haruhi, they would have to do what the author wanted, which once again, put the "customer" second.

In exchange, you would either get 12 episodes of non-canon plot bending to reach Disappearance, or never get to Disappearance at all. That's WAY worse.

All of that is just YOUR opinion, Vallen. Not everybody necessarily shares it.

I'd gladly take 12 episodes of consistently entertaining anime original Haruhi over the first 12 new episodes of this year of Haruhi episodes. Some of my favorite animes are anime original productions.

[Tornadium]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Actually, that's a bit debatable. One of the effects of E8 is that it had a dramatic impact on how many people viewed the character of Kyon; basically, it made him appear hopelessly lazy and/or incompetent in the eyes of many fans, whereas the novel story alone likely never had that impact since you only saw the final iteration.

Akka, in particular, did an excellent job of explaining his position here, IIRC.

Well here is my issue with that point.

To TRUELY understand the character you have to consider all possible aspects before you reach a definate conclusion. Otherwise what you get is a shallow and misinterpreted (Or unfairly displayed) view of a certain character.

At least they repaired the damage from Endless Eight with sighs (In terms of Kyon's character at least).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

it made him appear hopelessly lazy and/or incompetent in the eyes of many fans,

And that is true. Kyon IS lazy. If you didn't think he was before, then Endless Eight corrected that. That's why Haruhi keeps him moving with her energy.

So what if it diverged from the source material, as long as that source material story is eventually done?

IF it is eventually done. Or it could just die off like ZnT, never to be seen again because they can't reconcile the non-canon events.

Shana was lucky.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, this is simply a difference of opinion, Vallen. Not everybody cares about how faithful an adaptation is. Typically, I watch an anime before I become familiar with its source material. So, for me, it's my appreciation of the anime in and of itself that is key.

So... you're saying you'd rather risk a studio completely altering the cast's personalities than go through a repetitive storyline?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And that is true.

It's a matter of degrees, Vallen.

E8 made Kyon look like a hopelessly lazy idiot in the eyes of a lot of anime fans. That is not his character; he's not that bad. I don't think that the novels ever intended him to look that bad.

IF it is eventually done. Or it could just die off like ZnT, never to be seen again because they can't reconcile the non-canon events.

Shana was lucky.

Arguably because JC Staff has improved as a studio, and hence now know what risks they can take, and what risks they can't.

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

So... you're saying you'd rather risk a studio completely altering the cast's personalities than go through a repetitive storyline?

To the best of my knowledge, JC Staff didn't 'completely alter' the personalities of the Toradora or Shana casts... aside from arguably improving upon Hecate. You can do anime original material with out completely altering the cast's personalities.