(L) Cross Game

[Nosauz]

ahhhh..... if the manga were to end in 3 chapters it just wouldn't be enough, I don't think. Considering the resolution to all the relationships established in itself would take at least 2 chapters.

[Akito Hayama]

Originally Posted by GrimJack

If my math is correct that is chapter 160 perhaps a Grand Finale?

Well, since we have chapter 157 in Shônen Magazine #09, #10 should contain chapter 158.
So I suppose the Shônen Magazine cover is to celebrate Seishu's/Koh's victory, which I do had expected but not so soon. If that was true and given how "abruptly" Adachi has finished many of his mangas off, CG is likely to end with volume 17
Maybe it's just the 160 km/h pitch =D

[poko-kun]

but...but...
we still have one more thing to be cleared up
- Waka's presents

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by mit7059

I don't think he's gonna hit 160, but Aoba will take him anyways.

Personally hope he doesn't hit 160, it really shouldn't need to come to that.

[stpehen]

The thing about Adachi's constant use of panties-flashing and peeping at girls in swimsuits and such is that they're essentially no more than jokes or non sequitur intros to chapters. He'll often tie them to characters (the protagonist yes, but also his comic relief characters and most often, himself) but it doesn't take a whole lot of paying attention to realize that they have absolutely no relation to the actions or motivations of the principal characters. Adachi's characters always have a sort of timeless or stately manner because they don't act like teenagers with raging unpredictable hormones, but adults with stoic and closely-held principles for their relationships.

Adachi may throw in a bit of skin here and there for tongue-in-cheek purposes but it never has any connection to the true tenets of his characters or stories.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Personally hope he doesn't hit 160, it really shouldn't need to come to that.

except the death flag at the end of 157 seems like he does need it.

[Haohmaru]

157 was awesome. Against Mishima you need everything you can come with. Wonder how long this manga will continue. Until Koshien ends I guess.

[Darkonus]

Originally Posted by poko-kun

but...but...
we still have one more thing to be cleared up
- Waka's presents

Most likely Koh will give them to his daughter Wakaba.

[jpwong]

I don't think I want to see an epilogue chapter jump quite that far into the future...

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Rumblefish, I can't really agree on three because adachi's writing has never been about intense passion or hormones, but more the type of sentimental love over lust. Even in his one shots there is no overt use of lust but instead any description of love is a more simple one about people connecting on a higher level. Does it make lust wrong, no, but adachi just doesn't use lust/extreme bouts of passion to drive his characters. I guess that's why it gives his characters an almost older feel about them? Since they are not solely tied to their lebidos'.

Sorry for jumping into the conversation late. Nosauz, if you check back on earlier pages in this thread, you'll find that Fish and I have gone over this same point in the past. I don't want to retype or rehash what was said, but I'm still interested in reading your response to our earlier comments. If I understand you correctly, you are not totally denying the existence of lust between Aoba and Kou. But in that case I can't see where you disagree with what Fish said. Otherwise, are you saying that lust does not in anyway influence how Aoba and Kou are behaving? And you seem to impy that lust or physical desire is incompatible with "sentimental love." Do you believe it's an either-or proposition?

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by stpehen

The thing about Adachi's constant use of panties-flashing and peeping at girls in swimsuits and such is that they're essentially no more than jokes or non sequitur intros to chapters. He'll often tie them to characters (the protagonist yes, but also his comic relief characters and most often, himself) but it doesn't take a whole lot of paying attention to realize that they have absolutely no relation to the actions or motivations of the principal characters. Adachi's characters always have a sort of timeless or stately manner because they don't act like teenagers with raging unpredictable hormones, but adults with stoic and closely-held principles for their relationships.

Adachi may throw in a bit of skin here and there for tongue-in-cheek purposes but it never has any connection to the true tenets of his characters or stories.

I may disagree with you a tiny bit. Those echi shots provide some insight into Adachi's own attitude towards sexuality and sexual mores, which in turn can shed some light into his characters' motivations. Given Adachi's storytelling style, there is a tendency among foreign readers to superimpose onto Adachi's characters their own sexual hangups and prejudices, forgetting that this may not be compatible with the context in Adachi's original imagination. Knowing a little something about Adachi's own views on the subject can help anchor the characters in their original sexual cultural milleu. You can tell that Adachi retains a playfull, almost puerile delight in sporadic female sexual objectification, an attitude that is still pervasive in Japan, particularly among men of Adachi's age (and one that is still generally tolerated to a degree that we in the US would find shocking, as I found on my most recent visit).

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

I may disagree with you a tiny bit. Those echi shots provide some insight into Adachi's own attitude towards sexuality and sexual mores, which in turn can shed some light into his characters' motivations. Given Adachi's storytelling style, there is a tendency among foreign readers to superimpose onto Adachi's characters their own sexual hangups and prejudices, forgetting that this may not be compatible with the context in Adachi's original imagination. Knowing a little something about Adachi's own views on the subject can help anchor the characters in their original sexual cultural milleu. You can tell that Adachi retains a playfull, almost puerile delight in sporadic female sexual objectification, an attitude that is still pervasive in Japan, particularly among men of Adachi's age (and one that is still generally tolerated to a degree that we in the US would find shocking, as I found on my most recent visit).

now for the most part if you take a good hard look at adachi's collective work, the only series that really explicitly uses the panty flash to describe a character or develop a character is in miyuki where the use for it is quite obvious due to the setup of the story, but here as in most adachi series, the characters have this timeless/stoic air about them. Also if you could point out what you call sexual objectification in cross game that would lead better to your argument. I find most of his sexual innuendo which is very rare, only scene that comes to mind is the massage scene and even then it felt that kou was more or less playing around with aoba, when he clearly has always viewed her as a competitor and less a female.

[joeboygo]

To keep the discussion from flying to far afield, let's focus on Cross Game.

To start, drawing the region of a woman's sexual organs in a manner that is both explicitely sexual and remote from the rest of her attributes as a person - aka upskirt or panty shot - reduces the woman from an individual to a means toward male sexual gratification and thereby constitutes objectification. I was talking about the very panty shots Stpehen referred to.

Adachi has sprinkled a handful of such panchira shots all over Cross Game, and you can tell from the way they are drawn that he gets a kick out of drawing them and throwing them in. These drawings provide some insight into Adachi's personal attitudes towards sex and women, no? Or do you disagree?

BTW, I don't understand what you mean by "timeless and stoic air" in this context. There's nothing stoic about any of the main characters, except Azuma on occasion, and only briefly, and lust, which has possessed humans since creation, is pretty timeless also.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

To keep the discussion from flying to far afield, let's focus on Cross Game.

To start, drawing the region of a woman's sexual organs in a manner that is both explicitely sexual and remote from the rest of her attributes as a person - aka upskirt or panty shot - reduces the woman from an individual to a means toward male sexual gratification and thereby constitutes objectification. I was talking about the very panty shots Stpehen referred to.

Adachi has sprinkled a handful of such panchira shots all over Cross Game, and you can tell from the way they are drawn that he gets a kick out of drawing them and throwing them in. These drawings provide some insight into Adachi's personal attitudes towards sex and women, no? Or do you disagree?

No, because it isn't actually true that gaining enjoyment from the shape of the bodies of the opposite sex indicates any lack of personal respect. Adachi-sensei tends to make his heroes a lot like himself in their love of girl-watching, but their attitudes and behaviour towards the opposite sex are not what your theory would suggest. If you bracket out the girl-watching and the ecchi magazines then Tatsuya from Touch and Hiro from H2 are actually pretty good role models in their attitudes.

[DanielSong39]

No matter what happens I will be rooting for Azuma in his future pursuits... one of the few times where a supporting character outshines the main character, at least in my mind. He is always straightforward and honest; his decision-making is really solid.

Perhaps he really is too good for Aoba and I can accept that. But as for Kou, I think he can do better and it would be a shame if he never realized that.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by PeterI

No, because it isn't actually true that gaining enjoyment from the shape of the bodies of the opposite sex indicates any lack of personal respect. Adachi-sensei tends to make his heroes a lot like himself in their love of girl-watching, but their attitudes and behaviour towards the opposite sex are not what your theory would suggest. If you bracket out the girl-watching and the ecchi magazines then Tatsuya from Touch and Hiro from H2 are actually pretty good role models in their attitudes.

That's completely beside the point. The discussion is about whether sexual desires influence the characters' decisionmaking and behavior. I'm not concerned about the propriety or even morality of such desires. In fact, I'm trying to get us away from any discussion of morality precisely because our ideas about what's good and proper about sex are probably not the same as Adachi's.

Let's try to stay on track. Female crotch shots: respectful, disrespectful, whatever, it doesn't matter. The relevant thing is that Adachi enjoys drawing them, looking at them, and obviously has no problem letting people know it. Not the slightest hint of disapproval. In other words, he is no prude. Knowing that about him, how should that shape your understanding of sexuality in his characters and the influence, if any, that human sexual urges have on their behavior and decisionmaking?

[BetoJR]

I do believe this discussion is veering dangerously close to flame-worthy topics. Could we go back to discussing the manga, now?

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

That's completely beside the point. The discussion is about whether sexual desires influence the characters' decisionmaking and behavior. I'm not concerned about the propriety or even morality of such desires. In fact, I'm trying to get us away from any discussion of morality precisely because our ideas about what's good and proper about sex are probably not the same as Adachi's.

Let's try to stay on track. Female crotch shots: respectful, disrespectful, whatever, it doesn't matter. The relevant thing is that Adachi enjoys drawing them, looking at them, and obviously has no problem letting people know it. Not the slightest hint of disapproval. In other words, he is no prude. Knowing that about him, how should that shape your understanding of sexuality in his characters and the influence, if any, that human sexual urges have on their behavior and decisionmaking?

Except that for the most part in Adachi manga, he's well aware of his target demographic, panty shots are just a necessity of doing business, he even jokes about his editors rushing him in his work, eventhough that is most likely not true. For the most part the panty shots are irrelevant to the story because for the most part their unseen by the characters, it's called fanservice for a reason, to service the fans when there is no reason to show panties. Also Kou is often used to show some but few panty shots. Like the time adachi brings out kou's keen eye sight, it's meant to be service for the fans, and to establish that kou is indeed a teenager, but the sad fact is as the manga progresses, kou becomes less and less of a teenager and more of a timeless relic of human wisdom and experience.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

That's completely beside the point. The discussion is about whether sexual desires influence the characters' decisionmaking and behavior.

Of course they do. It's the reason Koh plays baseball. It's why the second years are playing so well. The sublimation of sexual desire and energy is a major theme in Cross Game.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Let's try to stay on track. Female crotch shots: respectful, disrespectful, whatever, it doesn't matter. The relevant thing is that Adachi enjoys drawing them, looking at them, and obviously has no problem letting people know it. Not the slightest hint of disapproval. In other words, he is no prude.

He is a prude and I love him for it. It is precisely because he doesn't see his art as improper or disrespectful that it is compatible with his prudery. Prudery means having a strong sense of sexual propriety - and while he may think some things proper that you think improper - Adachi has a very strong sense of sexual propriety.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Knowing that about him, how should that shape your understanding of sexuality in his characters and the influence, if any, that human sexual urges have on their behavior and decisionmaking?

I'd look for sexual desires to be manifested through sublimation. They are very definitely there.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Except that for the most part in Adachi manga, he's well aware of his target demographic, panty shots are just a necessity of doing business, he even jokes about his editors rushing him in his work, eventhough that is most likely not true. For the most part the panty shots are irrelevant to the story because for the most part their unseen by the characters, it's called fanservice for a reason, to service the fans when there is no reason to show panties. Also Kou is often used to show some but few panty shots. Like the time adachi brings out kou's keen eye sight, it's meant to be service for the fans, and to establish that kou is indeed a teenager, but the sad fact is as the manga progresses, kou becomes less and less of a teenager and more of a timeless relic of human wisdom and experience.

And so...is that a yes...or a no? We're all grownups here, right? We can talk about stuff like this without getting all hot and bothered, can't we? The story is about a romance between Kou and Aoba. In my experience, whenever a healthy man and woman are drawn to each other romantically, there's a sexual element involved, and I personally don't see why things should be different between Kou and Aoba. But it's apparent that some people want to believe the pairing of Kou and Aoba is a neuter courtship, so I want to know why. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, now may be as good a time as any to come to grips with it.