(L) Cross Game

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by PeterI

Of course they do. It's the reason Koh plays baseball. It's why the second years are playing so well. The sublimation of sexual desire and energy is a major theme in Cross Game.

Very Freudian. I too believe that lust is a major source of tension between the characters in the story, but I wouldn't go so far to say that's the force that drives them to play their best. Camaraderie is another of Adachi's favorite themes, and it's very prominent in this story.

Originally Posted by PeterI

He is a prude and I love him for it. It is precisely because he doesn't see his art as improper or disrespectful that it is compatible with his prudery. Prudery means having a strong sense of sexual propriety - and while he may think some things proper that you think improper - Adachi has a very strong sense of sexual propriety.

I beg to disagree. Prudery is an EXCESSIVE and PRIGGISH obsession with modesty. Look it up. And as far as that "very strong sense of sexual propriety" goes, I can't honestly say what Adachi's scruples are. I can only guess. All I know for sure is that he likes drawing crotch and butt shots, and isn't afraid to share this preoccupation with his readers.

Originally Posted by PeterI

I'd look for sexual desires to be manifested through sublimation. They are very definitely there.

I'm not even looking for any overt manifestation at all. All I'm after is a realistic understanding of the characters. Don't you think pretending that they don't think about sex denies their humanity? Adachi didn't draw them sitting on the can either, but that doesn't mean they never shat.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

I beg to disagree. Prudery is an EXCESSIVE and PRIGGISH obsession with modesty. Look it up.

I did. A prude (short for prude-femme) is a woman (and by extension also a man) with a strong sense of what is sexually proper and behaves accordingly. This behaviour may be offensive to rakes who prefer people to have loose sexual morals. A prig, on the other hand, is a man who loudly insists on proper speech and manners. A dictionary that confuses the two is defective.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

And as far as that "very strong sense of sexual propriety" goes, I can't honestly say what Adachi's scruples are. I can only guess.

It is pretty obvious that he likes and strongly approves of Tatsuya and Minami from Touch, and Koh and Aoba from Cross Game. He does not worship rakishness in the way that American entertainment usually does.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

All I know for sure is that he likes drawing crotch and butt shots, and isn't afraid to share this preoccupation with his readers.

Absolutely, he is quite clearly in awe of female bodies and he does not think any evil of it. His leading female characters are remarkably whole people. He likes drawing them in swimsuits, in underwear, and in the shower, but this does not lead to them being any less than whole characters.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

I'm not even looking for any overt manifestation at all. All I'm after is a realistic understanding of the characters. Don't you think pretending that they don't think about sex denies their humanity?

Koh is a little atypical for an Adachi baseball hero, unlike Tatsuya and Hiro, he is never (or very rarely in comparison) shown enjoying magazines featuring pin-up models or looking into changing rooms with binoculars. I think that difference has to be intentional. I think it is because Koh is hugely under the influence of his memory of Wakaba.

The sublimation of sexual energy into playing baseball is a major theme, and the running joke about how everyone on the team (except Koh) asks Aoba if she will go out with them if they reach an unrealistic goal is part of that.

(No I don't want to take this back, and i found your reply below insulting and poorly spelled. If your dictionary thinks that prudery and priggishness are synonyms then you need a better dictionary. My guess is that you looked at a Merriam Webster product - don't.)

[joeboygo]

Now you're just being wreckless. It's easy for people to look up "prude" for themselves so I'll leave it at that, but you may want to rethink your post before too many others read it. I'm pretty sure this is one you'll want to take back.

As to Adachi's stand on sex and morality, again, all I've got is what I've already laid out, so I can't presume to know what he really thinks. I wouldn't make as big a leap as you have, but until Adachi actually says something I suppose your guess is as good as anybody else's. At least we can agree that Adachi is not averse to sexuality, and the characters he created in Kou and Aoba share a normal sexual attraction towards each other, which really was the only point I cared about.

PS:
On the issue of Waka v. Aoba, we've already been down this exact same road before. Waka was a little girl in fifth grade. Aoba is a well filled out 17-year old. Two very different animals.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

And so...is that a yes...or a no? We're all grownups here, right? We can talk about stuff like this without getting all hot and bothered, can't we? The story is about a romance between Kou and Aoba. In my experience, whenever a healthy man and woman are drawn to each other romantically, there's a sexual element involved, and I personally don't see why things should be different between Kou and Aoba. But it's apparent that some people want to believe the pairing of Kou and Aoba is a neuter courtship, so I want to know why. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, now may be as good a time as any to come to grips with it.

wow... be condescending much. Honestly there not much of a point talking to you, I put forth evidence of why there is very little to any heavy "lust" or sexual tension because that's how the story is written. I mean seriously if you can see all the sex filled allegory for the 21st century be my guest, show me where it is. Don't get me wrong they are supposed to be in love, but when it comes to adachi's standards on love your missing the boat. Anyway talking to you is boring and for you to make personal attacks just makes your points even less logical, because clearly you have a vested interest in the outcome of why you believe what you do.

[BetoJR]

So, what about that last chapter, eh?

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

wow... be condescending much. Honestly there not much of a point talking to you, I put forth evidence of why there is very little to any heavy "lust" or sexual tension because that's how the story is written. I mean seriously if you can see all the sex filled allegory for the 21st century be my guest, show me where it is. Don't get me wrong they are supposed to be in love, but when it comes to adachi's standards on love your missing the boat. Anyway talking to you is boring and for you to make personal attacks just makes your points even less logical, because clearly you have a vested interest in the outcome of why you believe what you do.

Settle down, I didn't mean to come across that way. If you read the comments preceding mine you'll understand that much of that sass wasn't actually directed at you. And Peter and I pretty much talked the issue out enough, so it was getting old already anyway.

Aint it funny that everybody's an expert on Adachi nowadays.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

So, what about that last chapter, eh?

i'm amazed at how long Adachi can keep me on the edge of my seat, even though I think the result of the game is a foregone conclusion. We have had a pretty good baseball game for the last seven months. I think Koh will do something amazing next issue, but not necessarily a 160 km/h pitch. It is always possible that there will be an amazing save in the outfield. The only thing I would complain about is if there were a single tying run and we had a tie at the end of the fifteenth inning and a rematch. That would just be too much.

I'm not sure if any Adachi baseball hero has ever walked anyone on purpose. It would be logical for Koh to walk Mishima, even if it would draw boos from the crowd. Does anyone think it possible that Adachi will surprise us with an intentional walk? I can't see it happening, but I also can't see a sane pitcher and catcher not think about it.

[stpehen]

Originally Posted by PeterI

The only thing I would complain about is if there were a single tying run and we had a tie at the end of the fifteenth inning and a rematch. That would just be too much.

You're right, it would be too much and Adachi isn't anywhere near dumb enough to pull a stunt like that when he's clearly lined up all his ducks in a row for this upcoming showdown.

It's kind of like expecting there to be a lengthy Koshien arc after this game is done: it's not going to happen because all the elements of the drama have converged on this point and there is nothing left to be resolved afterward. Anything more would just be bad storytelling, and if there's one thing Adachi knows how to do well, it's tell a story properly.

[joeboygo]

It looks like we have but three more weeks of Cross Game before it wraps up. I can't see the confrontation with Azuma dragging past the next chapter. But if it goes that way, that will leave two whole chapters of falling action, which seems a bit much for Adachi. If it ends with the same kind of not-so-ending that we've been getting from Adachi of late, Cross Game would be an excellent series, but I wouldn't be sure if it will rank among his greatest. However, if he does something special with these final three chapters, Cross Game could go on to become his magnum opus. At this stage of all his previous series I was relatively certain about how I felt about the whole even before the final chapters came out. For me, this is the first time that an Adachi series retained so much potential at such a late stage. It's been a great routine. I hope for once he sticks the landing.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by stpehen

It's kind of like expecting there to be a lengthy Koshien arc after this game is done: it's not going to happen because all the elements of the drama have converged on this point and there is nothing left to be resolved afterward. Anything more would just be bad storytelling, and if there's one thing Adachi knows how to do well, it's tell a story properly.

I'm betting we will see a series of scoreboards, and then we see the bottom of the ninth at the Koshien finals. We don't know any members of any teams they will face, so i really doubt we will get more than the briefest of game summaries until the last game where i think a certain dream must come true.

[Proto]

That's IF they win against Ryoh. I still stand by my pet theory that they will lose next chapter.

[Tyrone Biggums]

They won't lose. Waka's whole dream of the Koshien and Kou and fat man being in it are what drives the story.

They lose. Good bye baseball. High school is done. Off to college where only Kou will be playing baseball. And that other dude who hits home runs.

[Proto]

Waka's whole dream of the Koshien and Kou and fat man being in it are what drives the story.

And that in and of itself would present an excellent drama point with which Adachi can finish the story. With this, Koh's stoic demeanor may finally crumble, and Aoba will be there for him. It will be specially interesting if koh does manage to throw a 160km/h in his second pitch, but Mishima manages to home run it nevertheless on the third one. That way Aoba's dream will be fullfilled but Waka's won't. And after the initial emo'ing, Koh may be enlightened as to what is truly important.

Well then again this is just my pet ending. Never mind me.

[PeterI]

Originally Posted by Proto

And that in and of itself would present an excellent drama point with which Adachi can finish the story. With this, Koh's stoic demeanor may finally crumble, and Aoba will be there for him. It will be specially interesting if koh does manage to throw a 160km/h in his second pitch, but Mishima manages to home run it nevertheless on the third one. That way Aoba's dream will be fullfilled but Waka's won't. And after the initial emo'ing, Koh may be enlightened as to what is truly important.

That could work. But i don't think it will happen. Cross Game is pretty big on destiny, and Wakaba's dream is their destiny. Your ending could be pretty good, though.

[DanielSong39]

On a side note, how common is it for the lead character in a sports manga to not be the best player on the team? I can think of at least three examples in Adachi's mangas:

Nine: Eiji Kurahashi (Pitcher)
Hiatari Ryoko: Shin Mikimoto (Third baseman)
Cross Game: Yuuhei Azuma (First baseman)

I'll give Adachi some points for creativity, though it looks like the game will come down the Kou vs. Mishima battle.

Regardless of how Mishima does, we all know who the best hitter is.

[Proto]

On a side note, how common is it for the lead character in a sports manga to not be the best player on the team?

There's also Ookiku Furikabutte, where the main character is not only not the best, but he would almost be the 2nd worst in the team if it wasn't for his team giving him emotional and tactical support. It is an excellent character development series/manga though, so you may want to watch it nevertheless.

[Nosauz]

Technically in slam dunk, hanamichi is not hte best.

[JackRydden224]

I love how when Kou is one step away from making Wakaba's dream come true he thinks of Aoba.

I actually went back to read the chapters before the Ryuoh game started and I gotta say Koh is carrying a lot of things on his shoulders into this game. Wakaba's dream, Akane's health, Aoba's feelings and the entire team's dream.

[poko-kun]

Originally Posted by Proto

That's IF they win against Ryoh. I still stand by my pet theory that they will lose next chapter.

You read too much Slam dunk

[Proto]

Actually, I've never watched more than one episode of that. It just feels to me like the most logical conclusion.