[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Miraluka]

http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-19820.html

Any news here?



I want a remake ;_;

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Miraluka

http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-19820.html

Any news here?



I want a remake ;_;

Sadly I've been told it's just a pachinko game... no idea how it works... but you can see some animated scenes here:

and here:

Originally Posted by Dormin

I always thought the ending with Beatrice and Battler in the boat was a hint towards there was some kind of boat accident. I personally believe the theory that Yasu died in the accident, or that she was meaning to drown (as Beatrice pretty much jumped out of the boat, if I remember correctly).

People seem to theorize that Ikuko is Yasu. Even though I kind of like the theory that she is somehow keeping Battler "prisoner", would this really be the case? Would Yasu just start living a new life with amnesiac Battler like nothing ever happened? Would she even think that Battler is the same person, hence red "Battler is dead"?

But I'm interested to hear why people think Ikuko could be Yasu, even though it is pretty much pointed that she had a way with writing the stories. Does any other evidence exist?

I was thinking it was more simbolic, as Yasu buried her Beatrice's personality as that one could live only on Rokkenjima (it would be hard to keep alive the idea of Beatrice being around out of Rokkenjima) and Battler late on lost his memory, so his identity as Battler died as well.

Beatrice didn't so much as jump off the boat, it was more she suddently disappeared when Battler closed his eyes. If it's all simbolic it can be Yasu left him while he wasn't paying attention/fell asleep, he went to search for her worried she might do something drastic or get herself in troubles (because maybe she looked unhappy or because Battler told her they couldn't live in hiding with her playing Ikuko and he playing her husband but they've to go to the police or something as he would also have a sister he should care for) and ended up being involved in a car incident.
Yasu finds him and once she finds out he's suffering amnesia thinks this will solve everything and she'll be allowed to live with him the life she'd like to live, bribed the doctor and the servants (or simply lied to the servants who were newly hired) and happily began her life as Ikuko with Tohya.
She kept an eye on Rokkenjima matters though and a side of her was probably displeased Battler forgot everything.
In the end she sort of ended up placing Rokkenjima under his nose.
His reaction isn't the best one and she starts regretting things. She also feels guilty expecially when things escalates and Ange searches Tohya while Tohya almost kills himself. She has not the guts to outright tell him and works the truth into the tales she writes with Tohya. He figures out but, by then, Ange has disappeared. Years go by and Tohya manages to meet again Ange but he's still... cut apart from Battler.
Ange's party helps him to put together the two identities.

End of one of my many theories... though to know the truth about Ikuko being or not Yasu we'll have to wait if there will be more hints in the manga. Right now are being printed the chapters about Tohya living with Ikuko so I'm very anxious to see if in them there are some hints...

[GreyZone]

I speculated with the possibility, that Ikuko is Yasu and Yasu wasn't even present on Rokkenjima. So Battler escaped alone and injured (e.g. someone on the island hit Battler's head or someone shot his head) and Ikuko=Yasu "kidnapped" Battler and asked him about what happened on Rokkenjima, etc.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I speculated with the possibility, that Ikuko is Yasu and Yasu wasn't even present on Rokkenjima. So Battler escaped alone and injured (e.g. someone on the island hit Battler's head or someone shot his head) and Ikuko=Yasu "kidnapped" Battler and asked him about what happened on Rokkenjima, etc.

But that would be in no coherence with what the Episodes portrayed. The idea is fascinating if Yasu was described as being completely different, but the way s/he was portrayed the idea of her/him being a scheming mastermind, waiting for some contrived plan to play out, like an overgrown mousetrap...I don't know.

Too many things rely on her being in at least partial control of the islands events; like knowledge of the subterranean tunnels, the bomb, the trial of love, the test of succession, testing Battler...

I think the biggest problem with Yasu being Ikuko is, it would make her from a tragic character into more of a morally black character than the story lets on about. Not even by "holding Battler hostage", which is something that can be argued about, but by leaving the succession of the Ushiromiya fortune and all the bad luck that comes with it for Eva and Ange to manage.
If Eva did believe that Battler or Yasu were the culprits, would Yasu and Battler (after getting his memory back) just stand by and watch the events unfold?
If it was all a plan between the three (Eva, Yasu, Battler) to cover the whole thing up as an accident to protect the family's honor and escape, wouldn't at least Yasu have tried to contact either Eva or Ange?
If Battler and Yasu thought that Eva was the culprit, would they have left Ange in her care?

Yes, there is the whole thing about Tohya not wanting to contact Ange, but that is not only because he doesn't feel she is his responsibility anymore, he also feels that he would hurt Ange more than he could help her (not having any brotherly feelings for her anymore). EP8 is actually a way for Battler to communicate to Ange that she should let past things rest and transmits this feeling quite well.

No matter how you turn it, Yasu surviving would just make Yasu=Ikuko into a colossal dick, considering it was public knowledge that Eva was mentally unstable and that Ange apparently was less than a well-behaved high-society girl.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be fascinating if that WAS the case, but so far I don't see it being hinted at.

Additionally there is the whole, as long as the host lives anything can be revived innumerable times, but if the host dies the soul is lost too. That's the whole reason for Battler's frustration with Chick-Beato in EP6. If Ikuko was Yasu, who is by extension Beatrice, why did it then take decades for them to reunite and only with Ange's help?!

[Renall]

Yeah, Ikuko is a weird and morally questionable character as-is, if she's someone with a direct connection to events it makes her entire pattern of behavior incredibly hard to take as anything but evil outright. And as haguruma and I have noted, as cool as it may be it just doesn't seem to fit the text. As cool as a crack theory can be... well, if there's nothing really pointing to it, then I don't know. While the Ikuko = Yasu thing is possibly supportable, the notion that Battler's situation was anything other than more or less what was portrayed seems highly dubious. The only scene that really offers much room for interpretation is the one with Beatrice at the end, and the interpretation that points to most strongly is Yasu's death in some fashion.

Amnesia is stupid, but I see no reason to doubt that Battler had it in the text as presented. And Ikuko being Yasu turns her from a morally ambiguous character into a really creepy one. In fact, I'd argue if she were Ikuko then her behavior would be so wildly out of character that the only explanation would be that she was irreversibly changed for the worse by the experience of that weekend to the point of becoming a dangerously cynical person. That doesn't fit at all thematically with the last episode, which for all its faults is definitely supportive of the idea of redemption and finally achieving what was believed to be impossible. Ikuko would seem to stick in the craw of that thematic idea if she were Yasu, as it would make her a distinctly broken person far beyond recovery. If she's just herself, then her being kind of a dick is merely who she is, and this story isn't about her redemption, so that's perfectly fine.

[Leafsnail]

The conclusion I ended up coming to was that Tohya couldn't remember anything at all about Ange, since she wasn't really in the message bottles. As such he didn't feel he could meet her - if he couldn't even remember his relationship with her, what good would meeting with him do? Ikuko then decided to get to know Ange herself and see if she could get Tohya to remember about her. I can sortof vaguely justify their course of action in that case.

Alternatively Ikuko is Yasu and she just never forgave Ange for making fun of witches.

[Dormin]

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but there is a quite of talk in ep 4 about ange being left out of mariage sorciere and everyone in the club being very pissed at her. Maybe ange isn't in the message bottles because no one thought her to be nice enough to be included in the secret stories of glamorous witches.

Also Ikuko is described as a dickhead character. Yasu killing people for retarded reasons is kind of dickhead move.

Even if there is very little evidence pointing I=Y, somehow yasu living in a household with crippled amnesiac battler and writing her twisted fictions (probably smiling creepily and forcing battler to eat terrible home made cookies) totally fits in line with her sort of obsessive attitude towards battler.

Also if one of the motives was to get rid of the gold and her burdens, do you think yasu would be bothered to see eva struggling with gold? We are talking about a person, that was ( if we believe yasu to be sort of a person boards want us to believe) pretty ready to kill pretty anyone because muh suffering and muh golden rulette. Also she never even liked ange, and while getting what she wanted (a creepy household with battler), would she give a shit about ushiromiyas anymore?

Now I don't necessarily believe this theory myself, but it's something nice to consider.

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure that Yasu didn't actually kill anyone - she merely attempted to claim responsibility by throwing her scripts into the sea. That seems to fit better with episode 7 than her being an evil murderer.

In addition, an interpretation where she kidnaps Battler would make her the unambiguous villain of the story, and it seems unlikely that she wouldn't be revealed in that case.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Dormin

Even if there is very little evidence pointing I=Y, somehow yasu living in a household with crippled amnesiac battler and writing her twisted fictions (probably smiling creepily and forcing battler to eat terrible home made cookies) totally fits in line with her sort of obsessive attitude towards battler.

Actually she was never that much obsessive, rather fairly hurt by Battler promising her something and then basically everything pointing to him just forgetting about her altogether. Her fiction is clearly twisted to a certain degree, but, if we believe what Beato says in the EP8 manga, it was never supposed to be anything more than fiction she wanted Battler to read and solve in order to find out about her without having to tell him "I love you" in person.

I can actually see her writing these things over the period of time since she officially became Beatrice III and then being totally out of it when she learned that Battler was actually coming.



This actually got me an idea...
What if that was the actual reason for her to do the fucking murder mystery? That would explain the "if Battler had come the year before or the year after it wouldn't have been as bad" even more, and also the "because of you people die."
Let's think about it, her basic idea was making Battler read about them and think, but in 1986 everything pointed to her having to make a decision, especially because of George. So, even if she threw them in the sea a month or two before the conference, they'd never reach the shore in time for anybody to find them, and she probably didn't even know a way to send them to Battler personally without making an utter fool of herself. So, what better way to present him with it than using her temporary power to make her stories come true (in a way) and make Battler live her fantasy?!
If he solved the puzzle and apologized, she's have her peace. If he came out saying he still loved her, she'd go back to him. If he'd fail they'd all stand up in the end pointing at Battler and laugh at him for being incompetent.
She had basically been playing witch with not only Maria, but the whole household staff for at least a few years, so it was only upping the ante in way. No way this could go wrong now, could it?

Also if one of the motives was to get rid of the gold and her burdens, do you think yasu would be bothered to see eva struggling with gold? We are talking about a person, that was ( if we believe yasu to be sort of a person boards want us to believe) pretty ready to kill pretty anyone because muh suffering and muh golden rulette. Also she never even liked ange, and while getting what she wanted (a creepy household with battler), would she give a shit about ushiromiyas anymore?

It is never implied anywhere that she didn't like Ange. Meta-Beato apparently simply despised Ange's piss-poor attitude towards the game, basically running all over it screaming, "Only my solution counts!!", ten times louder than her brother ever did, without having the proper insight to solve it.
The EP8 manga largely hints at Beato feeling horrible about what she put Ange through, but also feeling a little bit cheated out of a way to defend herself since Ange's mind is already made up.

And there is one important key-point you mentioned yourself, the boards want us to believe something about Yasu, but the ones where she appears as a murderer are specifically written to paint her as such, to the point of it lacking credibility.
The fact that EP3-6 basically paint Beato as going out of her way to somehow save the dignity of the Ushiromiya family by taking all the blame on herself via one method or another makes it hard to believe that she is the creation by a sociopath of a level that Ikuko-Yasu would be at.

[Leafsnail]

I agree with most of the "unwilling murder mystery night" theory, but I don't think Battler's return was a coincidence. Consider that:
1. Battler came back because Rudolf begged him to
2. Rudolf was in dire financial straights
3. A large amount of money arrived at Rudolf's house shortly after the conference

[erneiz_hyde]

Yasu probably didn't contact Eva or Ange because she thought it's no longer within her right and power to do anything. I actually think that things really wouldn't turn for the better had she actually met them. Ange would definitely not trust anything Yasu said at that point, no matter whether Eva thought Yasu as the culprit or they worked together. The only person that Ange would trust at that point was probably Battler, and he's either still in amnesia or have refused to see her. Thus all those years, Yasu worked to make Battler remember or care enough about his sister so they could meet again. Ange is left on her own all the while, but I'd argue that she needed that solitude to really sort out her feelings on her own accord.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think the biggest problem with Yasu being Ikuko is, it would make her from a tragic character into more of a morally black character than the story lets on about.

Well, there's the problem that in Prime she might not be a tragic character but ended up being involved merely because prior to leaving Rokkenjima, she dropped some tales in the sea.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Not even by "holding Battler hostage", which is something that can be argued about, but by leaving the succession of the Ushiromiya fortune and all the bad luck that comes with it for Eva and Ange to manage.
If Eva did believe that Battler or Yasu were the culprits, would Yasu and Battler (after getting his memory back) just stand by and watch the events unfold?

Well, Eva never accused anyone so it's hard to know what she believed. Personally I think if she wanted to accuse Yasu she wouldn't feel the need to protect Ange from this. Even if she were to do it though, she would have to find Yasu first and she likely believed her and Battler dead.

If they were to think she wanted to accuse Battler (a thing she apparently didn't do) though, Tohya never recovered the memories of those 2 days. He couldn't really defend himself, he might be afraid he were the real culprit and he refused the idea he was Battler apparently till Eva died and Ange disappeared.

Originally Posted by haguruma

If it was all a plan between the three (Eva, Yasu, Battler) to cover the whole thing up as an accident to protect the family's honor and escape, wouldn't at least Yasu have tried to contact either Eva or Ange?

Assuming there was an agreement it can be Yasu kept in contact with Eva... or it can be the agreement was to never search for her again so as not to draw suspicions. It's not like Yasu needs to contact Eva and probably she's not so fond of her she wanted to.

Originally Posted by haguruma

If Battler and Yasu thought that Eva was the culprit, would they have left Ange in her care?

Battler has little chances to do something as he's amnesiac. He might have planned to do something and then go stopped. As for Yasu it really depends on why she believed Eva did it, if she thought Ange would be in danger and if she believed she would be able to do something.

Let's assume Yasu thought Eva was the culprit. As things were, Eva had no reason to kill Ange as well, unless Eva is insane, very vengeful or feel threatened.
Yasu also likely has no way to prove Eva is the culprit, nor to defend herself should Eva turn the table.

After all in order for Yasu to be Ikuko she had at least gotten quite a bunch of money that belonged to Kinzo from Genji only Genji isn't around to tell he gave it to her out of his own free will and, anyway, as the money was Kinzo's I don't even think Genji could handle it to someone else freely.

So Yasu would be suspected of stealing Kinzo's money at best. If she was on Rokkenjima also and claimed she got it because she was Kinzo's daughter/son it could even be argued she had two motives to kill all the Ushiromiya, the money and hate toward the family for being tossed off a cliff, having been used as a servant and possibly even for Kinzo raping her mother.

So really, for Yasu reveal her identity might not be the best move. Battler might be the one interested in taking the risk as he probably loved Ange enough for this if he believed Ange in danger but Battler is ruled out soon by the amnesia.

Originally Posted by haguruma

No matter how you turn it, Yasu surviving would just make Yasu=Ikuko into a colossal dick, considering it was public knowledge that Eva was mentally unstable and that Ange apparently was less than a well-behaved high-society girl.

If Yasu couldn't take Ange away from Eva revealing herself would be pointless though. Yasu can claim 'Eva did it' but can she prove it? Also I don't remember it being public knowledge Eva was unstable as for Ange it probably became known when Ange was older, years later the tragedy. At best it was public knowledge the two didn't get along which doesn't necessarily mean Eva threatened Ange's life or abused her.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Additionally there is the whole, as long as the host lives anything can be revived innumerable times, but if the host dies the soul is lost too. That's the whole reason for Battler's frustration with Chick-Beato in EP6. If Ikuko was Yasu, who is by extension Beatrice, why did it then take decades for them to reunite and only with Ange's help?!

Well, it is however hinted chick-Beato can turn into Beatrice in the future. Chick Beato, more than a completely different person, seems a part of Beatrice as she was back in the past and, in fact, she needs the other part to become complete.
The Beatrices are considered sisters and therefore daughters of the... let's call her original Beatrice as they're probably parts of her.

After all Ep 7 presents a Yasu that created various identities, one of which was the Beatrice that lived as a pranking ghost of Rokkenjima (and who can be the elder sister) but the other was the Beatrice born to love Battler in her place (chick Beato). The two were fused together then lived through the torture of waiting for Battler until they became the 'original Beato'.

Battler's tale present a parallel universe in which Battler managed to take care of the Beato born to love him and she fought to 'get him back' so that she never became an evil witch like the one the original Beatrice was. Chick Beato doesn't held against Battler the fact he 'left her' to solve the logic error, even if she was sort of jealous of how he was having 'fun' with Erika. She believes him and she tries to get him back, she doesn't just wait for him to figure things out.

As for the part of Ange's help technically Beato and Battler were united under the sea. But there's a part of Battler that's still inside Tohya and that couldn't unite with Beato because Tohya sort of rejected it. Ange's little magic trick might have caused Tohya to accept the Battler inside him which might mean for Tohya to stop rejecting the Ushiromiya family as his own and his story with past Yasu as well.

Ep 7 implied he wrote his final tale to be done with Beato, he put Beato to rest and, in a way, Battler's own feelings for her, so that he, as Tohya, could move over. If Ep 7 is also written by him he implied a disliking for Battler, who's not even allowed to show up or say his own side of the story. Battler is erased by it. Even in the teaparty he 'disappears'.

The fact he appears again at the end of Ep 8 might mean just Tohya reconciled with him.

Originally Posted by Renall

Amnesia is stupid, but I see no reason to doubt that Battler had it in the text as presented. And Ikuko being Yasu turns her from a morally ambiguous character into a really creepy one. In fact, I'd argue if she were Ikuko then her behavior would be so wildly out of character that the only explanation would be that she was irreversibly changed for the worse by the experience of that weekend to the point of becoming a dangerously cynical person. That doesn't fit at all thematically with the last episode, which for all its faults is definitely supportive of the idea of redemption and finally achieving what was believed to be impossible. Ikuko would seem to stick in the craw of that thematic idea if she were Yasu, as it would make her a distinctly broken person far beyond recovery. If she's just herself, then her being kind of a dick is merely who she is, and this story isn't about her redemption, so that's perfectly fine.

To be honest I think if Ikuko is Yasu we should judge her on a rather large period of which we know nearly nothing.
She might have changed over the years and the text in a way implied she did.

For the person who took Battler in and changed his identity, going so far as to bribe doctors so they wouldn't tell about Battler to anyone, she became the one who tried to persuade Battler to meet who she assumed/knew was his sister.

While the Ikuko Battler met at the beginning clearly didn't care about how Battler's family might be searching for him as she kept him hidden, Ikuko later on began to worry.

So yes, after the Rokkenjima incident Yasu, if she's Ikuko, might have been a type of person and then she might have slowly changed.

Another parallel is Battler who left his family after his mother died and didn't want to have relations with it but that later on warmed up again to it and, in the end, returned to it.

So Yasu might have had a time in which she said she didn't want to be involved and who care about Ange, she didn't even like her, or Eva, let her deal with all the troubles (as in the beginning Eva couldn't count on the Ushiromiya fortune) as Eva was never nice with her and then began to regret it later on.

Yasu's not really described as the nicest person ever, after all. She liked to scare people with her Beatrice's ghost story, prank them and thrive on the power their fear gave her. She even pranks Jessica and it's possible one of her pranks caused a maid to get injuried, even if I don't think that was her aim. In her tales she uses Maria to deliver the letters when it's easy to guess all the adults would have jumped at Maria and her mother might have even ended up slapping her a bit because Maria would talk about witches.
I like to think she wouldn't go so far as to be willing to murder everyone but I don't see her as considerate or justice lover to risk what she has to protect Ange or Eva's reputation.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I agree with most of the "unwilling murder mystery night" theory, but I don't think Battler's return was a coincidence. Consider that:
1. Battler came back because Rudolf begged him to
2. Rudolf was in dire financial straights
3. A large amount of money arrived at Rudolf's house shortly after the conference

Well, it would be really interesting if Yasu bribed Rudolf to have Battler to return back and to leat Ange home for that conference.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Actually she was never that much obsessive, rather fairly hurt by Battler promising her something and then basically everything pointing to him just forgetting about her altogether. Her fiction is clearly twisted to a certain degree, but, if we believe what Beato says in the EP8 manga, it was never supposed to be anything more than fiction she wanted Battler to read and solve in order to find out about her without having to tell him "I love you" in person.

Battler made her a promise when he was 12 and 6 years after and with her having a boyfriend who's willing to marry her, she hadn't gotten over the fact he couldn't keep a promise he made when he was a kid and couldn't keep for a legittimate reason. It's less obsessive than keeping him trapped but she's still pretty much hung up on a boy who could have become radically different from how he was 6 years before, enough different she wouldn't be able to stand him.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Yasu probably didn't contact Eva or Ange because she thought it's no longer within her right and power to do anything. I actually think that things really wouldn't turn for the better had she actually met them. Ange would definitely not trust anything Yasu said at that point, no matter whether Eva thought Yasu as the culprit or they worked together. The only person that Ange would trust at that point was probably Battler, and he's either still in amnesia or have refused to see her. Thus all those years, Yasu worked to make Battler remember or care enough about his sister so they could meet again. Ange is left on her own all the while, but I'd argue that she needed that solitude to really sort out her feelings on her own accord.

Likely enough. Ange believes only in her truth in which Eva is the culprit.

[PsychoShion]

The whole Beatrice=Ikuto=True human monster culprit.


But isn't the climax of Arc 3 where Beatrice almost has us all fooled into believing she only has good-will in her heart? She tricks the reader and everyone LOL!

Don't you think this is very similar when we reach Arc 7 and "Yasu's Story " is told. Do we let her believe that because we now know the WHOLE story we finally understand the truth and don't see her as an EVIL HORRIFIC WITCH.

I think the whole Yasu=Ikuto thing isnt too hard to believe even if you have to consider that "Beatice" is totally evil just like we have seen from the beginning.

Wasn't that the whole point? Do we let her win?


Remember just to make sure that Arc 7 is mostly Bernkastel's version and that is what might be truly horrifying about it, its just a total lie to sucker you. Also Featherine and Bernkastel are up to monster stuff.

I doubt an innocent Yasu could be a true partner in crime with them but i believe the Beatrice we know is plenty. She is a monster.

Why do you guys try to go around so many circles to not see that IKuto=Beatrice =REal monster. The end of 8 shows she is the mastermind and evil being of this tale and manipulates everything so her image is how she wants it and when.

Why shouldn't it be? This is her Story. She is the Author.

Isn't this suppose to be the worst of HUMAN-TRICKS? Its easier to say a "Witch" did these things than to believe a human is this EVil without calling them a MONSTER?

[GreyZone]

Or... the bomb simply exploded when Battler and Eva (and Yasu) "explored" the tunnels which killed the rest. Seems very anticlimatic, but why not?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Or... the bomb simply exploded when Battler and Eva (and Yasu) "explored" the tunnels which killed the rest. Seems very anticlimatic, but why not?

That would explain some elements, but not Battler's intention to leave her with a wonderful lie over a painful truth...it would hurt, sure...but it doesn't seem to be worth all the effort that he appears to be putting into EP8

Btw. Erika rocked in chapter 20 of the EP8 manga...she basically solved EP5 and it is pretty much how I considered it, complete with vengeful Yasu and unwilling Battler accomplice. She also explains how he managed to sneak the non-existence of "the person X who can not be perceived by the Detective at the same time as Kanon" (as she calls it) by her in the beginning...though I really wanna wait for the Japanese Tankobon, since my Chinese is way too bad for this.
It's apparently connected to it never being fixed who the "18 people on Rokkenjima" that the first 4 games talk about are supposed to be.

Much nicer is how it is explained that apparently all of EP5 was actually part of the parents plot to lure Natsuhi out into the open and confess to Kinzo's death. They used the true murder culprit as an accomplice in their scheme, by creating a script for Battler to read when he called Natsuhi under order of the parents. The children, Genji and Rosa were in on the plan, while Krauss was kidnapped (likely by Genji) and murdered after the phone call in order to assure the security of the plan. The children were taken to the tunnels leading to Kuwadorian and likely killed there.

I also liked how they gave Erika much more incentive for her rage, because she starts going insane over doubting everyone, even her master (because it was under Bern's order that she concentrated only on Natsuhi).

I love her final attack on Battler, when she basically says that the Golden Land is nothing but a fancy word for death and that happiness is just a colorful word, while true happiness is impossible for them. And that is followed up by her telling him that Ange will read the Book of the Single Truth and will despair.

Oh yeah...it also more or less hints at Meta-Ange being part of the Hachijo Toya books when we see a switch from Featherine and Bern, talking about how they grow weary of waiting for an answer but want to leave it to Ange, to Ikuko and the cat in her office, with her commenting that the story of Ange's decision is not yet finished.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I'm pretty sure that Yasu didn't actually kill anyone - she merely attempted to claim responsibility by throwing her scripts into the sea. That seems to fit better with episode 7 than her being an evil murderer.

In addition, an interpretation where she kidnaps Battler would make her the unambiguous villain of the story, and it seems unlikely that she wouldn't be revealed in that case.

I'm prone to think Yasu wasn't the murderer in Prime but I seriously doubt she tried to take responsibility for something she didn't do in that way.

First, tossing the bottles in the sea meant they might have gone lost and no one would hear 'her confession', making it pointless.

If the first bottle was really found by the police short after the incident this means as soon as the incident happened she started writing a huge amount of text in a really short time and then she got rather lucky as the police found it pretty soon.

If the first bottle wasn't found by the police short after but the police was bribed into claiming they had found it, and the same happened for the sailor who found the other one it would be pointless to confess so late. The fact had been declared an incident and without the message bottles gossips would have likely died sooner.

The 'confession' implying that there was a serial murder raises more interest toward that idea than toward the idea of an incident as assumed by the police.

The fact that there are different confessions invalidate them.

The fact that the different confessions don't match with the truth (Eva dies pretty early on) also make the police think they were an attempt to cover up what Eva did. They couldn't prove Eva wrote them but they could have thought Eva had someone write them for her... though they had no idea who.

The confessions don't say out loud: I did it, not Eva. They place the blame on a witch, something the people's not going to believe easily.

Yasu has no reason to take responsibility for Eva. She didn't like her much, nor she liked Ange and if she wanted to live on her own, hidden from other people's eyes this attempt might have given someone the way to find out about her. This way to 'confess' causes people to focus more on Rokkenjima when they might have forgot it.

The Visual novel says why Yasu did it and there was nothing as 'covering up for Eva' involved. She wanted someone to understand her heart and she tosssed them in the sea because she thought it would be fun as she loved 'Ten Little Indians'.

Originally Posted by PsychoShion

The whole Beatrice=Ikuto=True human monster culprit.


But isn't the climax of Arc 3 where Beatrice almost has us all fooled into believing she only has good-will in her heart? She tricks the reader and everyone LOL!

Don't you think this is very similar when we reach Arc 7 and "Yasu's Story " is told. Do we let her believe that because we now know the WHOLE story we finally understand the truth and don't see her as an EVIL HORRIFIC WITCH.

I think the whole Yasu=Ikuto thing isnt too hard to believe even if you have to consider that "Beatice" is totally evil just like we have seen from the beginning.

Wasn't that the whole point? Do we let her win?


Remember just to make sure that Arc 7 is mostly Bernkastel's version and that is what might be truly horrifying about it, its just a total lie to sucker you. Also Featherine and Bernkastel are up to monster stuff.

I doubt an innocent Yasu could be a true partner in crime with them but i believe the Beatrice we know is plenty. She is a monster.

Why do you guys try to go around so many circles to not see that IKuto=Beatrice =REal monster. The end of 8 shows she is the mastermind and evil being of this tale and manipulates everything so her image is how she wants it and when.

Why shouldn't it be? This is her Story. She is the Author.

Isn't this suppose to be the worst of HUMAN-TRICKS? Its easier to say a "Witch" did these things than to believe a human is this EVil without calling them a MONSTER?

I'm not sure Yasu is a real monster in Prime. Ryukishi implied the blame of the incident is probably something that should be placed on the adults, not on Yasu.
A completely different matters are the gameboards where Yasu has no qualms to murder people... but piece Yasu is more like a dark Mary Sue, not PrimeYasu.

Said all this I don't think Yasu was the best person ever. She likely wasn't as kind and pure as we might be lead to be. Due also to her sad past she wanted to believe she was/would become better than anyone else, places the blame on her lack of ability to get along with the servants on the servants only (only she didn't have friends at the Fukuin too so she likely wasn't good at social relations), as a child she liked to tease Battler along with Jessica and she played pretty ugly pranks to people. If Kanon is to be taken as a representation of her darkest thoughts she didn't really have the best feelings toward everyone else and here and there she acted pretty self centered, dreaming for others to save her but doing next to nothing to save herself.

All this however doesn't turn her into a monster, just into a normal human being with her strong and weak points. No one in Umineko is perfect, everyone has some sides of his characters that are unpleasant.

From here to turn into a monster though... I think there's a long way to go.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I'm prone to think Yasu wasn't the murderer in Prime but I seriously doubt she tried to take responsibility for something she didn't do in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if the idea with the cover up actually only happened over the course of the weekend and there was no real plan by Yasu to do anything sinister...
I mean, think about it...if it wasn't for the fact that everybody is dead, the money for the people would be a pretty sweet thing and sending them to a fake address isn't that surprising considering it's not exactly 100% legal money. Maybe it really was just Yasu saying thank you for everybody playing along in a big game.

That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.

I could see Yasu being blind and stupid enough to pull something like this and leaving her plan wide open to be highjacked any moment.

I also managed to work through chapter 20 of the manga a little more and Erika's EP5 solution is pretty much the "shit got highjacked idea" though it's the other way around.

Spoiler for Erika's manga solution to EP5:

So, like she explained in chapter 19, her solution is, Kanon and person X (from among the known cast) are the same person.

Kanon uses disguises, a change of vocal tone and behavior to deceive people. Also, Kanon and said person X were never seen by a detective at the same time (the trick in EP5 was apparently that Kanon got sent away to prepare the guestroom before the sentence about the number of people was spoken...though I'm not absolutely sure here because Chinese).
She uses the old saying of, "a woman can look different the next morning already".

She says that all games and almost all tricks can be explained by this and calls it a cheap amateur trick.

EP5 she says is done with a multitude of accomplices, among them Battler himself, since he is not the detective from there onwards.
The goal is an act of revenge against Natsuhi and the true culprit uses his accomplices to commit murder.

The new red and blue truth (and Erika's conclusion) are (roughly translated from Chinese):
In the first four games you (Battler) have been the detective.

When considering Kinzo's death, there are 17 people including Furudo Erika

In non of the first four games is Ushiromiya Battler ever the culprit

In the 5th game Piece Battler is an accomplice!!

Battler is the Detective and can therefore be neither the culprit nor an accomplice changes from the 5th game onwards!!

You were working with the culprit!!
So you are able to lie about seeing person X and Kanon together and also lie about people who are dead still being alive!
You have been given the same rights as the culprit!!

There is a numerous amount of possible accomplices!
And in the 5th game...the true culprit...uses all of them!!

For an act of revenge against Natsuhi!

In the 5th game it starts at 0:00 on October 5th!

The culprit and the accomplices met in the dining hall to discuss the plan of "making Natsuhi confess of concealing Kinzo's death in order to take advantage of the inheritance system through a fake series of murders."

All of the adults are in financial problems, so there is no need for an actual confession from Natsuhi, but only to force her into sharing the inheritance.

It is unknown how much information is actually exchanged, but since the plan is introduced as a trick, putting it into the hands of the accomplices is an easy thing to do.

The person claiming to be the boy from 19 years ago is working with the accomplices and prepared a script that Battler is asked to read to Natsuhi on the telephone.

How did it feel to threaten Natsuhi over the phone in front of the culprit and the other accomplices?!

Where you reluctant?! Or were you more than eager?! No matter which, it doesn't matter!
You simply pretended to be somebody else and threatened Natsuhi!

The Autumn Card!?
An easy trick as long as four cards are prepared in advance!
As soon as you hear Natsuhi's answer you can just tell her the fitting place!

Of course it could also be that you knew the answer she gave before.
Since person X knew that it was autumn, it could be prepared in advance!

Regardless which solution you choose, since Natsuhi always locks her door, the possession of a master key to place the autumn card is indispensable.

But since person X possesses a master key, that is no difficulty either!
Especially if it is a servant who felt sufficiently betrayed and badly treated by Natsuhi.

I struggled for a long time with the knock on the door and the accompanying letter!

It was actually the true culprit who conspired with you in coming up with the illusion of "as someone knocked on the door it was mysteriously placed on the floor!"

Yes, it is nothing more than the true culprits beloved witch illusion!

This was also the time when the 6 people to take part in the fake first twilight were chosen with the true culprit as the ringleader!

The victims chosen as the first sacrifices are George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss and Genji.

All the people who are not accomplices, which in this case is Furudo Erika, are to be tricked by the fake murders as well.

The cousins who are in the guesthouse at this point are called by Rosa from the dining hall or vice versa.

Since I decided to stay and rest in the downstairs hall until 3:00, the 4 cousins, according to the script, decorated the room and went to bed.

Then, in the morning of the 5th, Battler wakes up at a set time and, according to the script, pretends to find the described scene.

And because those pretending to be dead were obviously "looking like" corpses it was a sure fire win for the witch's illusion for the parents.
So it is best to discuss all this in advance!

This also proofs that there are multiple accomplices!

I had prepared everything for a night of eavesdropping from my room, but because I was not careful enough to carry out an autopsy the next day, I was deceived!

The culprit uses their credulity to further his murder plan and so Krauss was killed right after his phone call with Natsuhi!

The other 5 playing dead left the scene shortly after, to make it appear as if the corpses had vanished.

Even in a thorough search of the mansion I could not find them
And you also mentioned that the six bodies had not been moved after death.

Judging the situation from the events sorrounding Krauss' corpse, the gathering place for the 5 people is probably the hidden VIP room where the gold is stored...
or in the underground passage leading to Kuwadorian.

That being said, they are probably regarded a liability and disposed of by the culprit shortly after.

Next Natsuhi is commanded to hide in a closet where a button of hers has been placed beforehand.

All went according to a scripted murder play.

And so I framed Natsuhi in the process...

It is kind of ironic how I helped this whole plan to succeed.

I was seeing Natsuhi committing murders under the guise of the witch.

Natsuhi saw the boy from 19 years ago committing murders to hurt her.

The accomplices saw pretend murders to frame Natsuhi.

The true culprit hid in the dark all along,
laughing at Natsuhi, going on a mass killing spree, carrying out this large-scale plan...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I wouldn't be surprised if the idea with the cover up actually only happened over the course of the weekend and there was no real plan by Yasu to do anything sinister...
I mean, think about it...if it wasn't for the fact that everybody is dead, the money for the people would be a pretty sweet thing and sending them to a fake address isn't that surprising considering it's not exactly 100% legal money. Maybe it really was just Yasu saying thank you for everybody playing along in a big game.

Yes, in Prime it can very well be that Yasu wasn't planning anything bad.
After all in a way Ep 7 hinted this with the Lion's murder case. There's no Yasu planning to murder someone there for sure but the murder happens anyway, despite Yasu and Battler not being present. Can this be a hint they weren't really that determinant in the murdering?

Originally Posted by haguruma

That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.

I could see Yasu being blind and stupid enough to pull something like this and leaving her plan wide open to be highjacked any moment.

Realistic enough. Actually it'll be interesting if she left Ange home because she met Ange as Beatrice but was afraid Ange wasn't tricked as Maria and could tattle out things... but we already know Ange talked about magic with her mother so maybe she already did tattle out things so Kyrie is sort of prepared...

Originally Posted by haguruma

I also managed to work through chapter 20 of the manga a little more and Erika's EP5 solution is pretty much the "shit got highjacked idea" though it's the other way around.

You're awesome and my official hero!

Spoiler for Erika's manga solution to EP5:

Originally Posted by haguruma

So, like she explained in chapter 19, her solution is, Kanon and person X (from among the known cast) are the same person.

And I bet this matches with the scene in which Kanon and Shannon are shown together... a clear hint of who's this person.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Kanon uses disguises, a change of vocal tone and behavior to deceive people. Also, Kanon and said person X were never seen by a detective at the same time (the trick in EP5 was apparently that Kanon got sent away to prepare the guestroom before the sentence about the number of people was spoken...though I'm not absolutely sure here because Chinese).
She uses the old saying of, "a woman can look different the next morning already".

... can I say I don't like much this trick? I mean, there's no hint Kanon was 'sent away' while Erika was in the room. We're clearly told everyone must be there and Erika should be aware as well this was said, yet apparently her piece is unaware everyone must be there so that she doesn't grow suspicious when the sentence is said because it's perfectly fine if Kanon isn't there while, at the same time, Meta Erika is unaware her piece know Kanon isn't there.

*sigh* I would have preferred if Erika had been tricked into thinking that Kanon or Shannon was out of her field of vision but still in the room so that piece Erika couldn't check the info. (and this isn't the only odd piece. When everyone grouped so as to have Erika force a confession out of Natsuhi she didn't notice either Shannon or Kanon were missing. The same happened for Natsuhi who also didn't notice.)

[QUOTE=haguruma;4909326]She says that all games and almost all tricks can be explained by this and calls it a cheap amateur trick.

EP5 she says is done with a multitude of accomplices, among them Battler himself, since he is not the detective from there onwards.
The goal is an act of revenge against Natsuhi and the true culprit uses his accomplices to commit murder.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The new red and blue truth (and Erika's conclusion) are (roughly translated from Chinese):
In the first four games you (Battler) have been the detective.

When considering Kinzo's death, there are 17 people including Furudo Erika

In none of the first four games is Ushiromiya Battler ever the culprit

In the 5th game Piece Battler is an accomplice!!

Battler is the Detective and can therefore be neither the culprit nor an accomplice changes from the 5th game onwards!!

You were working with the culprit!!
So you are able to lie about seeing person X and Kanon together and also lie about people who are dead still being alive!
You have been given the same rights as the culprit!!

There is a numerous amount of possible accomplices!
And in the 5th game...the true culprit...uses all of them!!

For an act of revenge against Natsuhi!

In the 5th game it starts at 0:00 on October 5th!

The culprit and the accomplices met in the dining hall to discuss the plan of "making Natsuhi confess of concealing Kinzo's death in order to take advantage of the inheritance system through a fake series of murders."

All of the adults are in financial problems, so there is no need for an actual confession from Natsuhi, but only to force her into sharing the inheritance.

It is unknown how much information is actually exchanged, but since the plan is introduced as a trick, putting it into the hands of the accomplices is an easy thing to do.

The person claiming to be the boy from 19 years ago is working with the accomplices and prepared a script that Battler is asked to read to Natsuhi on the telephone.

How did it feel to threaten Natsuhi over the phone in front of the culprit and the other accomplices?!

Where you reluctant?! Or were you more than eager?! No matter which, it doesn't matter!
You simply pretended to be somebody else and threatened Natsuhi!

The Autumn Card!?
An easy trick as long as four cards are prepared in advance!
As soon as you hear Natsuhi's answer you can just tell her the fitting place!

Of course it could also be that you knew the answer she gave before.
Since person X knew that it was autumn, it could be prepared in advance!

LOL, another hint toward Shannon as she's the one who knew in advance and therefore she's person X. LOL, the manga even shows Shannon placing the cards...

Originally Posted by haguruma

Regardless which solution you choose, since Natsuhi always locks her door, the possession of a master key to place the autumn card is indispensable.

But since person X possesses a master key, that is no difficulty either!
Especially if it is a servant who felt sufficiently betrayed and badly treated by Natsuhi.

I struggled for a long time with the knock on the door and the accompanying letter!

It was actually the true culprit who conspired with you in coming up with the illusion of "as someone knocked on the door it was mysteriously placed on the floor!"

Yes, it is nothing more than the true culprits beloved witch illusion!

This was also the time when the 6 people to take part in the fake first twilight were chosen with the true culprit as the ringleader!

The victims chosen as the first sacrifices are George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss and Genji.

All the people who are not accomplices, which in this case is Furudo Erika, are to be tricked by the fake murders as well.

The cousins who are in the guesthouse at this point are called by Rosa from the dining hall or vice versa.

Since I decided to stay and rest in the downstairs hall until 3:00, the 4 cousins, according to the script, decorated the room and went to bed.

Then, in the morning of the 5th, Battler wakes up at a set time and, according to the script, pretends to find the described scene.

And because those pretending to be dead were obviously "looking like" corpses it was a sure fire win for the witch's illusion for the parents.
So it is best to discuss all this in advance!

This also proofs that there are multiple accomplices!

I had prepared everything for a night of eavesdropping from my room, but because I was not careful enough to carry out an autopsy the next day, I was deceived!

The culprit uses their credulity to further his murder plan

Originally Posted by haguruma

and so Krauss was killed right after his phone call with Natsuhi!

The other 5 playing dead left the scene shortly after, to make it appear as if the corpses had vanished.

Even in a thorough search of the mansion I could not find them
And you also mentioned that the six bodies had not been moved after death.

Judging the situation from the events sorrounding Krauss' corpse, the gathering place for the 5 people is probably the hidden VIP room where the gold is stored...
or in the underground passage leading to Kuwadorian.

That being said, they are probably regarded a liability and disposed of by the culprit shortly after.

Next Natsuhi is commanded to hide in a closet where a button of hers has been placed beforehand.

All went according to a scripted murder play.

And so I framed Natsuhi in the process...

It is kind of ironic how I helped this whole plan to succeed.

I was seeing Natsuhi committing murders under the guise of the witch.

Natsuhi saw the boy from 19 years ago committing murders to hurt her.

The accomplices saw pretend murders to frame Natsuhi.

The true culprit hid in the dark all along,
laughing at Natsuhi, going on a mass killing spree, carrying out this large-scale plan...

And this more or less confirms our suspicions. The manga even seems to imply the cousins were disposed off by giving them something to drink which likely contained poisonous pills or drug pills.

Really a splendid solution, Erika, we clap at you for confirming our suspicions.

LOL, symbolically speaking I wonder if Erika represents someone. It was speculated Battler/Tohya and Ikuko didn't write end together... so maybe Erika represent Ikuko? or Ange? It's interesting how she uses some English sentences, it's something only Battler and Ange do (okay, Beato/Yasu in Ep 4 as well but maybe she was mocking Battler?)

Anyway THANK YOU A LOT for the translation!

[Leafsnail]

I guess it does make more sense that Yasu hurled her scripts into the sea before the mystery night began in the hope that someone might be able to understand her. I was thinking that she perhaps decided to throw them into the sea after the actual murders began, but that doesn't really work now that I think about it.

Originally Posted by haguruma

That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.

That would be part of it, but she also probably knew Rudolf was the only one with the power to make Battler come back. I think the primary aim of the murder mystery night (other than possibly to find another headship candidate by encouraging everyone else to have a go at the epitaph) was to test and see if Battler would remember his sin, and him not being there would kindof totally invalidate that.

The events may also have had secondary goals:
- Legend: to try and teach Natsuhi a lesson about pride, and see if she would be able to swallow it and admit to her sin when faced with a tough situation
- Turn: to try and make Rosa realize how poorly she'd been treating Maria, and see if she could make their relationship better
- Land: from episodes 4 and 6 I'd guess it would involve a test of George and Jessica to see if they do really love Yasu. Maybe it would also teach Eva a lesson or something

Under this theory Yasu it still largely responsible for the tragedy (her ill-considered plan created the situation that led to the murders and her message bottles created the cat box that tormented Ange) but she didn't intend for it to happen.

e: Thanks very much for the translation of the episode 5 solution.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I guess it does make more sense that Yasu hurled her scripts into the sea before the mystery night began in the hope that someone might be able to understand her. I was thinking that she perhaps decided to throw them into the sea after the actual murders began, but that doesn't really work now that I think about it.

Well, she should have had them ready prior to the start of the mystery. After all it's said many times she worked on the game she wanted to play with Battler, thinking many scenarios so it's possible to assume she wrote many 'whatever of the golden witch'. Tossing them after the murders began would have been unnecessary risky as she could be discovered.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

That would be part of it, but she also probably knew Rudolf was the only one with the power to make Battler come back. I think the primary aim of the murder mystery night (other than possibly to find another headship candidate by encouraging everyone else to have a go at the epitaph) was to test and see if Battler would remember his sin, and him not being there would kindof totally invalidate that.

I don't think she really had to encourage them. Ep 7 says everyone was trying to solve it already. If she hires them as accomplices with the 'Kinzo is dead' info, they also know that 'solving the epitaph' would mean nothing as without Kinzo to acknowledge them as heads they wouldn't manage to be recognized as such just because they solved the epitaph and without Krauss they can't even convert the gold, which they can't declare to own as its illegal gold.

So, solving the epitaph loses sense once you know Kinzo is dead and that it would be troublesome to convert the gold into cash.

I think the one she wanted to encourage at best was Battler. The epitaph serves mostly to create the setting in which the murder game is played but for the adults what really matter is the money they can get from Yasu, not the gold.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The events may also have had secondary goals:
- Legend: to try and teach Natsuhi a lesson about pride, and see if she would be able to swallow it and admit to her sin when faced with a tough situation
- Turn: to try and make Rosa realize how poorly she'd been treating Maria, and see if she could make their relationship better
- Land: from episodes 4 and 6 I'd guess it would involve a test of George and Jessica to see if they do really love Yasu. Maybe it would also teach Eva a lesson or something

Under this theory Yasu it still largely responsible for the tragedy (her ill-considered plan created the situation that led to the murders and her message bottles created the cat box that tormented Ange) but she didn't intend for it to happen.

e: Thanks very much for the translation of the episode 5 solution.

The real problem is: did a mystery game orchestrated by Yasu even happened in Prime? And if it did, did it happened in a similar way to the ones in the games (with someone believing someone else is dead) or were they all aware they were playing 'Clue' as an Halloween game and while the children were playing an argument broke among the adults?

The gameboards were written as a game she wanted to present to Battler but we don't know if she wanted to hand him the written version or roleplay it with him unaware it was a game or make him aware of it.

And anyway, even if she was roleplaying a murder game with Battler unaware it was only a game, unless someone went into panic mode and started a murder rampage, I find hard to see her as largely responsible for what had happened.
If she was just a girl organizing a game and someone else decided to go on a murder rampage taking advantage of her game without her knowing... I don't feel much like blaming her as she was unaware of the adults' intentions.

--------------------------------------

On an unrelated note now I think the phonecall Battler made to Jessica was to 'hire her' in the 'prank' against Natsuhi. Battler was likely hired by his relatives and the same applies to George and Maria. The phonecall was likely done to involve Jessica among the accomplices in an innocent way. Maybe she was told the murder idea was something Battler planned to... let's say scare Shannon.
Later on when Rosa joins the cousins and the plan starts Jessica might have thought their parents agreed to it as Rosa was an adult and involved in the game so she might have played along in the belief her parents agree.