(L) Dragon Ball Super

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

Because they don't know about "SS", remember it was vegita which teach cabba about the "SS" and the sayans in universe 6 overal where strong than sayans from universe 7 (talkling about average sayans not goku and his crew), because unlike universe 7 they where not put into almost disappear from the universe unlike they counters in the universe 7 which where erased by frieza, they where the universe 7 protectors, this means which most of then where trained and probably strong enough to be able to become a SS or close enough of that,.

Remember to turn in a SS is not some complex ritual like the SSG all you needed in the beginner is get enough anger than later just be "kids playing".

I know they didn't know about SS, but like you said it's not complex. If it requires extreme anger (or desperation, which was closer by my take on things) then it would be unlikely for it to have never happened but not impossible, especially with them maintaining a certain level of peace and remaining naively ignorant of the worst villains' atrocities. If it can be done with training and exposure to SS from a young age (at least when combined with mixed blood) then it's not surprising because no one's seen one before. If all it requires is focusing your power at one spot and then focusing on the sensations that would certainly grab your attention, there should be lots of them and its nature should be well-documented or even taught as a part of the warriors' training. You don't have to know about a move to stumble on it, especially if it's simplified to such a stupid level.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I know they didn't know about SS, but like you said it's not complex. If it requires extreme anger (or desperation, which was closer by my take on things) then it would be unlikely for it to have never happened but not impossible, especially with them maintaining a certain level of peace and remaining naively ignorant of the worst villains' atrocities. If it can be done with training and exposure to SS from a young age (at least when combined with mixed blood) then it's not surprising because no one's seen one before. If all it requires is focusing your power at one spot and then focusing on the sensations that would certainly grab your attention, there should be lots of them and its nature should be well-documented or even taught as a part of the warriors' training. You don't have to know about a move to stumble on it, especially if it's simplified to such a stupid level.

yeah, that was the thing cabba was unable to proper explain caulifla about "get anger" them he tried another way to make her "focus her power" enough to turn in a sayan, which was what you say, all the focus and bla bla bla, that was the "most easy way" for cabba to explain caulifla how to get SS power and as you say since they "top dog villian" was playing the "good guy role"(faking it to sel planets) they never had a real reason to get anger enough to get SS level.

As i told in another post when you think about it, universe 6 have the "real potential to become the strongest universe of all universes cuz they have a "whole planet" full of sayans with potential to become SSG and above, while universe 7 have just few of them.

Give time to cabba to teach and train all of them and make it part of they martial train and you will see the most overpowered planet ever and they "mortal levels" can go level up pretty fast.

[Mad Pierrot]

[BWTraveller]

OK I know Vegeta's small and Broly's supposed to be exceptionally large after transforming, but isn't that a bit much?

And Blue Knight, that doesn't really address my issue: the creation of this absurd method to transforming doesn't just make it so that soon U6 will be full of Super Saiyans, it makes it completely ludicrous that they wouldn't already be packed full of them. By this point at least a few people would've stumbled on the trick and done it, and it would've been incorporated into training. The attempt to get the new Saiyans to SS fast enough only made it dumb that they'd never heard of it. When it required special traits and exposure from toddlerhood to the form, or extreme rage, there was some plausibility. But this, this is like finding out the X button makes you jump in a popular game and no one noticed or jumped, even by accident, over decades of high popularity.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

OK I know Vegeta's small and Broly's supposed to be exceptionally large after transforming, but isn't that a bit much?

And Blue Knight, that doesn't really address my issue: the creation of this absurd method to transforming doesn't just make it so that soon U6 will be full of Super Saiyans, it makes it completely ludicrous that they wouldn't already be packed full of them. By this point at least a few people would've stumbled on the trick and done it, and it would've been incorporated into training. The attempt to get the new Saiyans to SS fast enough only made it dumb that they'd never heard of it. When it required special traits and exposure from toddlerhood to the form, or extreme rage, there was some plausibility. But this, this is like finding out the X button makes you jump in a popular game and no one noticed or jumped, even by accident, over decades of high popularity.

i think you are taking it a little to overboard, while become SS don't need something too complex this don't means which "automatically anyone will turn in one without any knowledge about it, if they don't know about a "new form" and it never happened before (because again the ones which won the sayan civil war was the good ones) they at best know about a "legendary sayan" which still not being exactly the SS but someone which can born at each x time with insane hidden power".

They don't know about super sayan and since the evil they are fighting so far never was really a "big danger" enough to trigger a by accident transformation or something like that, it can really never happen if you don't know how to trigger it.

using your logic "one thing is when the "X" buttom is on your face but you never used it, another is when the same buttom was "hidden" in a secret place of the control and you only learn about it when someone outside which already found the buttom tel you, it make much more easy for you to learn to use it.

You must remember the big difference between both universe sayans and they conditions, to be able to compare them, while in theory they are the same race the path they followed in they lifes was totally different, universe 6 was more unlikely to become SS by themselfs tham universe 7 since they lifes being more "easy" and less "warrior/conqueror" focused tham universe 7.

And even we don't know "how exactly biologically speaking equals" they are since is clear which universe 6 sayans naturally don't have a tail this means which probably they can't turn in big monkeys, they where more "human likes" tham universe 7 as far we can see.

This is another point they sayan biology, how much "equal" is to the universe 7.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

i think you are taking it a little to overboard, while become SS don't need something too complex this don't means which "automatically anyone will turn in one without any knowledge about it, if they don't know about a "new form" and it never happened before (because again the ones which won the sayan civil war was the good ones) they at best know about a "legendary sayan" which still not being exactly the SS but someone which can born at each x time with insane hidden power".

They don't know about super sayan and since the evil they are fighting so far never was really a "big danger" enough to trigger a by accident transformation or something like that, it can really never happen if you don't know how to trigger it.

using your logic "one thing is when the "X" buttom is on your face but you never used it, another is when the same buttom was "hidden" in a secret place of the control and you only learn about it when someone outside which already found the buttom tel you, it make much more easy for you to learn to use it.

You must remember the big difference between both universe sayans and they conditions, to be able to compare them, while in theory they are the same race the path they followed in they lifes was totally different, universe 6 was more unlikely to become SS by themselfs tham universe 7 since they lifes being more "easy" and less "warrior/conqueror" focused tham universe 7.

And even we don't know "how exactly biologically speaking equals" they are since is clear which universe 6 sayans naturally don't have a tail this means which probably they can't turn in big monkeys, they where more "human likes" tham universe 7 as far we can see.

This is another point they sayan biology, how much "equal" is to the universe 7.

Problem it isn't a really "secret" place that's hard to find. If he'd had to tell her to focus on a very specific point that he had to point out I might buy it, but all he said was to focus her energy on her back. There's absolutely nothing complex about it, not even to the complexity of a two-button move. You just focus your energy on your back and when you feel tingly grab on that sensation. It's not an obscure point that's hard to find. It's never stated that you need to be guided through it and again it's far too simple to really buy that. And the thing is that U6's Saiyans are only "less likely" if you're talking about the classical path for transformation where you're faced with immeasurable adversity and an absolute need to stop them. They're apparently not faced with such levels of adversity and therefore are unlikely to have many high-level fighters pushed to that point. But this difference only matters for the old SS, not this new trick. What we have now is just "focus your energy here for a few seconds", something that could easily happen almost by accident. Just where does anyone suggest that you need to know a form exists in order to obtain it? It's never stated and doesn't fit since there has to be a first. Caulifla didn't go SS because she knew about SS and was guided through the process, she went SS because she focused her energy at a point for a few seconds. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that any other Saiyan with moderate skill and power wouldn't go Super too if they focused there for any reason, regardless of whether they know it can lift their energy or bleach their hair. It reduces the trigger to a trick so simple that someone should have done it without being taught.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Problem it isn't a really "secret" place that's hard to find. If he'd had to tell her to focus on a very specific point that he had to point out I might buy it, but all he said was to focus her energy on her back. There's absolutely nothing complex about it, not even to the complexity of a two-button move. You just focus your energy on your back and when you feel tingly grab on that sensation. It's not an obscure point that's hard to find. It's never stated that you need to be guided through it and again it's far too simple to really buy that. And the thing is that U6's Saiyans are only "less likely" if you're talking about the classical path for transformation where you're faced with immeasurable adversity and an absolute need to stop them. They're apparently not faced with such levels of adversity and therefore are unlikely to have many high-level fighters pushed to that point. But this difference only matters for the old SS, not this new trick. What we have now is just "focus your energy here for a few seconds", something that could easily happen almost by accident. Just where does anyone suggest that you need to know a form exists in order to obtain it? It's never stated and doesn't fit since there has to be a first. Caulifla didn't go SS because she knew about SS and was guided through the process, she went SS because she focused her energy at a point for a few seconds. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that any other Saiyan with moderate skill and power wouldn't go Super too if they focused there for any reason, regardless of whether they know it can lift their energy or bleach their hair. It reduces the trigger to a trick so simple that someone should have done it without being taught.

you not gonna make "something" from your own wish if you don't know about or have any motivation.

The focus was the way cabba was trying to explain her how to "focus her power" cuz it was what he did when vegita enraged him, he explained that, vegita put him on a situation he never was before taunting and moking him it lead him to do it, them he tried to do the same for caulifla but failed because he don't know how to "enrage her" since he is a "nice guy" and do it without having her want to kill him or something like that, then he tried just to explain the "point" which is focus all your power in a point until you can aweaken your "hidden power".

That is my point while all of them have the potential to go SS, if they don't have anyt knowledge" about it and have to "wait for lucky" to happen then is much more hard( remember vegita was tallking about it during the whole sayans and frieza arc about the SS form and all untiil finally goku achiev it), how much time could pass until a sayan from universe 6 could "accidentally" trigger it, we are talking about the "odds" of this happening taking in account which the threat level in they universe was not big as universe 7, since the big bad guy frost was playing as good guy and the next big danger is a "honorable mercenary assassin just look how was hard to trigger the anger in cabba to be able to transform, since he was a nice guy.

As i told is important take in account the "sayans" nature in universe 6, while technically speaking they where supposed to be the same race, they are really not due to some physical differences and how they lived.

Remember goku and vegita never had to go too deep about "how the transformation really work in they body" all they know is which they "do that and transform".

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

But they aren't Mary Sues. Would they have been Mary Sues to you if they were men? Cabba got Super Saiyan by some dumb fake taunting and Trunks and Goten got it in pre-school doing nothing but horse play.

Yes, because they would be horrible Gary Stu's (the male version by the way) just like how Kale and Caulifla are currently horrible Mary Sues.

As for Cabba, he didn't know Vegeta at the time so he didn't know he wasn't serious about it. Also, someone with the power level of a god that was beating him down like a dog with little effort threaten his home planet, if that didn't get him mad then nothing would have.

Here is the thing, Cabba at least followed the proper rules set for becoming a super saiyan (slightly rushed but he is still consistent with what we have known for years) and also had proper time in between his SS1 and SS2 transformations to at the very least seem believable instead of you know mastering both forms and almost reaching SS3 in the span of a couple of hours.

As for Goten and Trunks I won't be addressing it since others have done so in my stead.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

you not gonna make "something" from your own wish if you don't know about or have any motivation.

The focus was the way cabba was trying to explain her how to "focus her power" cuz it was what he did when vegita enraged him, he explained that, vegita put him on a situation he never was before taunting and moking him it lead him to do it, them he tried to do the same for caulifla but failed because he don't know how to "enrage her" since he is a "nice guy" and do it without having her want to kill him or something like that, then he tried just to explain the "point" which is focus all your power in a point until you can aweaken your "hidden power".

That is my point while all of them have the potential to go SS, if they don't have anyt knowledge" about it and have to "wait for lucky" to happen then is much more hard( remember vegita was tallking about it during the whole sayans and frieza arc about the SS form and all untiil finally goku achiev it), how much time could pass until a sayan from universe 6 could "accidentally" trigger it, we are talking about the "odds" of this happening taking in account which the threat level in they universe was not big as universe 7, since the big bad guy frost was playing as good guy and the next big danger is a "honorable mercenary assassin just look how was hard to trigger the anger in cabba to be able to transform, since he was a nice guy.

As i told is important take in account the "sayans" nature in universe 6, while technically speaking they where supposed to be the same race, they are really not due to some physical differences and how they lived.

Remember goku and vegita never had to go too deep about "how the transformation really work in they body" all they know is which they "do that and transform".

How is it harder? Again, he's not telling her to focus her energy on some obscure location and there's no indication that she has to have any knowledge or suspicion that doing so will result in a power up. All he says is that she needs to gather energy there and when she feels tingly to focus on the tingle. I find it really hard to believe that not one capable soldier ever focused energy on his back, and if you realized doing so made a tingly sensation arise chances are strong at least someone would pay attention. You seem to keep suggesting that SS still requires a desire to grow more powerful, and if it ever said that then I wouldn't have this much of a problem. Thinking "I can grow more powerful if I tense my back" is unlikely after all. But Cabba doesn't say that and there's no real indication of it. Instead it seems SS will result if anyone with real strength focuses on their back for a minute. This eliminates any desire for strength or anything like that, and reduces it to something so simple it should have happened at least once on an entire planet of warriors over the centuries, after which there would have at least been legends and most likely schools that figured the trick out, which would then mean again there'd be tons of them. But I don't even recall this "legendary Saiyan" you speak of; yes, Kale can become one but there's no legends in U6.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

But I don't even recall this "legendary Saiyan" you speak of; yes, Kale can become one but there's no legends in U6.

It's from the manga. Cabba tells Vegeta about the story of the "legendary saiyan" when he sees Kale go berserk, and explains pretty much the same thing Vegeta did on Namek (a bloodthirsty warrior with overwhelming strength that appears once every 1000 years).

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's from the manga. Cabba tells Vegeta about the story of the "legendary saiyan" when he sees Kale go berserk, and explains pretty much the same thing Vegeta did on Namek (a bloodthirsty warrior with overwhelming strength that appears once every 1000 years).

yeah, if we ignore the manga then they don't even knew about the legendary, they where totally crueless about they race potential unlike universe 7


ok let me put in the most simple way:

Uou can link provide a source where was told which the only and the only way to become a SS is just to get anger??? if anything we get before super 3 ways:

get anger which was what triggered goku which was focusing his power.
doing a hard training with vegita in androids arc
and being little kids and doing kids play in bu


we have at last 3 wasy to go SS, nothing can stop to have more "ways" and never was told about "that is the only way", only SSG was told which it need the ritual of 5 good sayans to become a SSG, any level under that we just saw which they have multiple ways.

Sayan 2, you could achiev by just training and get strong or using a external to awaken your potential as vegita did with buu.

then "unless you have a "word" saying which the absolute way to do something is "only by that way" then anything is possible is simple like that, just because they showed 2 or 3 ways to doing that don't means which you can't have others ways if nothing was stated about it.

for peoples using the "hybrid explanation"
if being a "hybrid of sayan and human" is enough to become a SS so easy as gothen and trunks then why it not happened too with gohan???. why he needed to train too wit goku to unlock it

for me it was a akira atempt to try to "explain" how the transformation really work which is not just "get anger, or be kid or hard work, that was a attempt to give a more "realistic explanation" than just nakama power or things like that.

it could not worked with some peoples but overal the majority of peoples understood and accept it.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah, if we ignore the manga then they don't even knew about the legendary, they where totally crueless about they race potential unlike universe 7


ok let me put in the most simple way:

Uou can link provide a source where was told which the only and the only way to become a SS is just to get anger??? if anything we get before super 3 ways:

get anger which was what triggered goku which was focusing his power.
doing a hard training with vegita in androids arc
and being little kids and doing kids play in bu


we have at last 3 wasy to go SS, nothing can stop to have more "ways" and never was told about "that is the only way", only SSG was told which it need the ritual of 5 good sayans to become a SSG, any level under that we just saw which they have multiple ways.

Sayan 2, you could achiev by just training and get strong or using a external to awaken your potential as vegita did with buu.

then "unless you have a "word" saying which the absolute way to do something is "only by that way" then anything is possible is simple like that, just because they showed 2 or 3 ways to doing that don't means which you can't have others ways if nothing was stated about it.

for peoples using the "hybrid explanation"
if being a "hybrid of sayan and human" is enough to become a SS so easy as gothen and trunks then why it not happened too with gohan???. why he needed to train too wit goku to unlock it

for me it was a akira atempt to try to "explain" how the transformation really work which is not just "get anger, or be kid or hard work, that was a attempt to give a more "realistic explanation" than just nakama power or things like that.

it could not worked with some peoples but overal the majority of peoples understood and accept it.

My problem isn't there being multiple ways, it's the difficulty level of those methods. Goku and Vegeta both actually got the first level through rage, Goku a raging anger and desperation to protect his son, Vegeta a rage of frustration and prideful need to attain the power. Goten and Trunks, along with being hybrids which has been established as a likely power boost, grew up training with Super Saiyans, not only pushing them to higher levels at a faster pace but also allowing their immature minds to observe over and over the energy and form. Like how children imitate their parents, they used their heightened hybrid abilities to observe and absorb and break through. But note, we're still dealing with the first gate having only two known paths: unbearable raging need or consistent exposure to the form from near-infancy along with crazy extreme training (seriously, one was forced to train in 100 times Earth gravity and the other was forced to keep up in order to play with him). Later levels were accessible through training once one had learned to master and understand the nature of the first level, but that first gate still had requirements. Can you not see the difference between "raging out" or "being raised seeing it every day" and simply "gather your energy on your back and you'll change"? Not anything possible is that simple. Just look at SSG transformation or the various fusion techniques or any number of other things, there's a strange and difficult trick to them and if you don't do it right either nothing happens or something worse happens. In all other instances of training someone to do something it's at least a significant trial and error thing that needs a good bit of work to manage. Here it's literally just a button you didn't notice. The button isn't hidden or anything, it's right there in plain sight, but not only did you never press it, thousands if not millions of people over generation after generation never pressed it either. Setting up this trick is a cheap and sloppy attempt to "explain" it and winds up making it so that either the Saiyans are all even more idiotic and traditionalist than anyone thought possible, as they never experimented or tried new things to develop and expand their techniques, or Caulifla is some kind of super-genius beyond Goku's level who's able to break through that gate just by knowing the gate exists, which then would reinforce the arguments of the "Mary Sue" crowd.

Bottom line is that it's a sloppy and cheap act to make Caulifla a capable opponent from early on without having to go through the trouble of actually showing her working for it. While it was a stretch I was willing to accept the brats because, like with Pan's flight, a combination of hybrid power, extreme training and constant exposure to and knowledge of the workings of the form gave me some room to speculate that they may have found some way during their off-screen first time. But this doesn't give me possibilities of off-screen unknowns or anything else, cutting away all possible excuses until all that was left was "We wanted her to be a Super Saiyan so she's now a Super Saiyan". I still like her, and I enjoy her fights, but that doesn't stop me from calling BS on this.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

My problem isn't there being multiple ways, it's the difficulty level of those methods. Goku and Vegeta both actually got the first level through rage, Goku a raging anger and desperation to protect his son, Vegeta a rage of frustration and prideful need to attain the power. Goten and Trunks, along with being hybrids which has been established as a likely power boost, grew up training with Super Saiyans, not only pushing them to higher levels at a faster pace but also allowing their immature minds to observe over and over the energy and form. Like how children imitate their parents, they used their heightened hybrid abilities to observe and absorb and break through. But note, we're still dealing with the first gate having only two known paths: unbearable raging need or consistent exposure to the form from near-infancy along with crazy extreme training (seriously, one was forced to train in 100 times Earth gravity and the other was forced to keep up in order to play with him). Later levels were accessible through training once one had learned to master and understand the nature of the first level, but that first gate still had requirements. Can you not see the difference between "raging out" or "being raised seeing it every day" and simply "gather your energy on your back and you'll change"? Not anything possible is that simple. Just look at SSG transformation or the various fusion techniques or any number of other things, there's a strange and difficult trick to them and if you don't do it right either nothing happens or something worse happens. In all other instances of training someone to do something it's at least a significant trial and error thing that needs a good bit of work to manage. Here it's literally just a button you didn't notice. The button isn't hidden or anything, it's right there in plain sight, but not only did you never press it, thousands if not millions of people over generation after generation never pressed it either. Setting up this trick is a cheap and sloppy attempt to "explain" it and winds up making it so that either the Saiyans are all even more idiotic and traditionalist than anyone thought possible, as they never experimented or tried new things to develop and expand their techniques, or Caulifla is some kind of super-genius beyond Goku's level who's able to break through that gate just by knowing the gate exists, which then would reinforce the arguments of the "Mary Sue" crowd.

Bottom line is that it's a sloppy and cheap act to make Caulifla a capable opponent from early on without having to go through the trouble of actually showing her working for it. While it was a stretch I was willing to accept the brats because, like with Pan's flight, a combination of hybrid power, extreme training and constant exposure to and knowledge of the workings of the form gave me some room to speculate that they may have found some way during their off-screen first time. But this doesn't give me possibilities of off-screen unknowns or anything else, cutting away all possible excuses until all that was left was "We wanted her to be a Super Saiyan so she's now a Super Saiyan". I still like her, and I enjoy her fights, but that doesn't stop me from calling BS on this.

goku got his power due to "krilin die", or you forget the famous "meme" krilin nooo!!!!, you killed krillin!!, dragon ball was the one which started the "nakama power' vegita and the kids where offscreen, vegita we know based on what he told which was due to his pride and want to be strong than goku.

and the kids is just " will accept this bs because it's a better bs than that other bs", if being hybrid was the only fact then why gohan don't easy turned too without need to train hard with goku??? wanting to "mimic" they parents is even worse than "concentrate the power in his back", because they did it without even know what they are doing being able to "copy" peoples was a "goku" trick, he is the one which the prodigy ability to mimic others by watching, if it's simple" both goten and trunks could be able to use the same attacks as everyone one or get the same power up as others by just watching.

I'm not saying which you can hate or call it bs if it's your opnion" but this don't means which is a "fact" and everyone else agree on that.

Which is what is happening, aways we have peoples making BS statements like "that characters where a failure" because i hate them, them everyone hated too and they failed" it's not true it's is BS making that statment unless is your personal opnion, if you don't have any proof to your argument this is just your own opnion and not just some youtubers share your opnion or some peoples" still dont turn it in "majority.

This was the original argument, it was bs, both caulifla and kale are popular characters and the explanation about how they get the power was overal accepted, this don't means which you must agree but also which claim which they are bs in a way which looks like a statment where everyone or almost everyone agree, no it's wrong and bs.

And the last we are talking about "shounen" series where what many peoples call BS and crap and hate are "normal" because it was supposed made for a target public which like that sort of "BS crap", if you don't like that sort of BS crap then you are not the "target", which this don't means which you can't watch or like, but it means which you are not really they target, like when you make trash B horror movies which are targeted to peoples which enjoy trash B horror movies(like sharknado), this don't means which peples outside that target can't watch but which they will hate some aspects of it since they where not the target.

the problem is the same of the current age "loud minority" trying topass as "majority". (i'm not saying which is your case or something like that but the current big issue in the "millenium age").

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

goku got his power due to "krilin die", or you forget the famous "meme" krilin nooo!!!!, you killed krillin!!, dragon ball was the one which started the "nakama power' vegita and the kids where offscreen, vegita we know based on what he told which was due to his pride and want to be strong than goku.

and the kids is just " will accept this bs because it's a better bs than that other bs", if being hybrid was the only fact then why gohan don't easy turned too without need to train hard with goku??? wanting to "mimic" they parents is even worse than "concentrate the power in his back", because they did it without even know what they are doing being able to "copy" peoples was a "goku" trick, he is the one which the prodigy ability to mimic others by watching, if it's simple" both goten and trunks could be able to use the same attacks as everyone one or get the same power up as others by just watching.

I'm not saying which you can hate or call it bs if it's your opnion" but this don't means which is a "fact" and everyone else agree on that.

Which is what is happening, aways we have peoples making BS statements like "that characters where a failure" because i hate them, them everyone hated too and they failed" it's not true it's is BS making that statment unless is your personal opnion, if you don't have any proof to your argument this is just your own opnion and not just some youtubers share your opnion or some peoples" still dont turn it in "majority.

This was the original argument, it was bs, both caulifla and kale are popular characters and the explanation about how they get the power was overal accepted, this don't means which you must agree but also which claim which they are bs in a way which looks like a statment where everyone or almost everyone agree, no it's wrong and bs.

And the last we are talking about "shounen" series where what many peoples call BS and crap and hate are "normal" because it was supposed made for a target public which like that sort of "BS crap", if you don't like that sort of BS crap then you are not the "target", which this don't means which you can't watch or like, but it means which you are not really they target, like when you make trash B horror movies which are targeted to peoples which enjoy trash B horror movies(like sharknado), this don't means which peples outside that target can't watch but which they will hate some aspects of it since they where not the target.

the problem is the same of the current age "loud minority" trying topass as "majority". (i'm not saying which is your case or something like that but the current big issue in the "millenium age").

First off, Goku's reaction wasn't purely on account of Krillin. It just looks like that in the old English dub since they translated Frieza's line as "pop goes the weasel" or something. Actually, what he said was "now for the toddler", clearly establishing that, right after annihilating Krillin, he was planning to do the exact same thing to Gohan. This then raises uncertainty about whether his transformation came from a vengeful anger or a desperation to protect his son.

I accept the kids' BS because it's more complicated and deliberately leaves things open so that speculation can occur. We don't see their first transformation (or at least what we see isn't identified as the first), so we don't know how they did it. All we know is that the training and partner they had growing up was nothing like Roshi and they were exposed to the form since they were toddlers. The numerous factors and uncertainties allowed people to try and come up with a reason it worked for them. And in my opinion the desire to mimic is better, particularly because we're talking about a long time. They didn't just look up the first time they saw a Super Saiyan and then do it back, they likely watched and tried as hard as they could over and over until they got the knack. And as far as whether they should be able to use others' attacks, consider that several of them have borrowed others' moves whenever they would be useful.

And the reason I call it BS is because, while most of the stuff in it is indeed action shounen BS, this is a completely different LEVEL of BS. If you look through action shounen series, most of them, particularly the popular ones, give a reason and process behind the characters' powers and why they're able to use them and what it takes to use them. There's pretty much always some reason why not everyone can do it unless it's something that everyone does do. Seriously, it's an insult to these series to say they pull this level of BS. Often the best stuff in shounen is focused on a hero's struggle to master a technique or obtain a level of power, and a lot of my favorite stuff is the effort taken to make connections and devise a basis for the nature of things. Same in the DB franchise, things like transformations up until this point were obtained with real effort and struggle, and if an explanation wasn't given as to how they obtained it then factors were set up along with vagueness about the timing to allow for speculation. And there were always enough factors and lengths of time to make it reasonable that it's not an easy thing to do. But again, seriously tell me, if all it takes is focusing your energy on your back like Cabba said, why the heck hasn't anyone pulled it off before now? This is the first time in my recollection that the series made up a reason for which I couldn't come up with any excuse for such a thing. Once again, I like Caulifla well enough as they made her entertaining. I just recognize that the explanation for her power-up was total nonsense that makes it ridiculous that no one had done it before. And whether the people who notice and care about this are in the majority or the minority, I suspect at the least that most fans would have loved to see some sort of longer bit with her, showing her actually training and struggling and having to actually push harder to get it. Power that's earned is almost guaranteed to be more impressive and move more, and this wasn't earned. It was just "we don't have time but she needs the power to fight so we'll give it to her".

[Blueknight78]

@BWTraveller
i'm not talking about "frieza speech"(and even that in my country this don't happened frieza talked about the kid in my local translation) but about goku when he was transforming all he mutered was "you killed kirlin" at this point he already started to transform and was aways about "krilin death, it never showed which frieza tauting his son have more "effect" or even any effect on his transformation, it was purelly triggered by krilin death.

ok when i understand the funny of expeculation and theory and all bla bla bla it's important to remember which if they are not proof to be truth and no more expeculations then they are "nothing" than expeculations and are not more important than "facts" if we never get a "real answer" for anything then it will be just expeculation which is "not truth and just expeculations no matter how much "close to the truth or plausible they are, if they are not the truth, they are not the truth simple like that, it is just peoples trying to guess something and nothing more, no more valid than the truth.

You argument about the kids have a fail which is again "expeculation", first when goten learn about SS goku was dead then he never could see it and the only time vegita needed to turn in SS after that and before he needed to use it again was when trunks was a just "just born"/baby i really doubt he could remember that specially when he was sleeping on that time, after that vegita never had a reason to turn in SS and was training in his base form and his surprise face and speech make clear which he never showed it to trunks, then "how exactly they are "mimic" what they never saw???.

and if they can do that and goku also could do that, then why caulifla no?????, specially all the clues showing which she can be the "goku" of this world, the prodigy character which can easy learn things.

And again the most important part which you keep ignoring is "gohan" why gohan could not go easy SS too if it was soo simple ??? see this is why i say shounen is not about "trying to understand or use logic because shounen in most cases is about power of friendship and a lot of bs power ups and halfassed plots, if we try to take them "serious" then things get really weird because most of them are not really like that.

I really feel it was just a silly way to try to explain how exactly the transformation work inside the body and really no problem since "everyone can be a super sayan.


If you like more the "under dog" going to train style of shounen then honestly dragon ball is not like that even when peoples come and say "he was born with 0 power" and trained hard, it only happened in the original and only in the beginner and even with that goku already showed being more your prodigy character based on how fast and much strong he get over time and his ability to fast learn by just watching many skills than being just the "under dog", i was like that on goku in the beginner but later he just turned to be the "overpowered gary stu" of animes, where he easy get most of the power ups and most of the times is the guy to save the day, even when gohan killed cell it was thanks to "goku" helping him from the dead, he must be there all the times he is the smuggler which not allow anyone to really shyne because he is the "loved mc( again i'm also love him and dragon ball but that is really a truth about it and many shounens where the mc is the big savior).

I really don't have any issue toward cauliflar or kale or do feel anything forced at this point specially when they get in a point where the power scales need to be big because of the new gods levels.

[Chosen_Hero]

You guys might want to start using the spoiler tags due to the size of your posts. Seriously, at this point your posts have become the parody of a dick measuring contest.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

You guys might want to start using the spoiler tags due to the size of your posts. Seriously, at this point your posts have become the parody of a dick measuring contest.

wow i was feeling the same lol, that is why i removed the quote to reduce it but it still feel a bit to long lol.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

Spoiler for long quote:

@BWTraveller
i'm not talking about "frieza speech"(and even that in my country this don't happened frieza talked about the kid in my local translation) but about goku when he was transforming all he mutered was "you killed kirlin" at this point he already started to transform and was aways about "krilin death, it never showed which frieza tauting his son have more "effect" or even any effect on his transformation, it was purelly triggered by krilin death.

ok when i understand the funny of expeculation and theory and all bla bla bla it's important to remember which if they are not proof to be truth and no more expeculations then they are "nothing" than expeculations and are not more important than "facts" if we never get a "real answer" for anything then it will be just expeculation which is "not truth and just expeculations no matter how much "close to the truth or plausible they are, if they are not the truth, they are not the truth simple like that, it is just peoples trying to guess something and nothing more, no more valid than the truth.

You argument about the kids have a fail which is again "expeculation", first when goten learn about SS goku was dead then he never could see it and the only time vegita needed to turn in SS after that and before he needed to use it again was when trunks was a just "just born"/baby i really doubt he could remember that specially when he was sleeping on that time, after that vegita never had a reason to turn in SS and was training in his base form and his surprise face and speech make clear which he never showed it to trunks, then "how exactly they are "mimic" what they never saw???.

and if they can do that and goku also could do that, then why caulifla no?????, specially all the clues showing which she can be the "goku" of this world, the prodigy character which can easy learn things.

And again the most important part which you keep ignoring is "gohan" why gohan could not go easy SS too if it was soo simple ??? see this is why i say shounen is not about "trying to understand or use logic because shounen in most cases is about power of friendship and a lot of bs power ups and halfassed plots, if we try to take them "serious" then things get really weird because most of them are not really like that.

I really feel it was just a silly way to try to explain how exactly the transformation work inside the body and really no problem since "everyone can be a super sayan.


If you like more the "under dog" going to train style of shounen then honestly dragon ball is not like that even when peoples come and say "he was born with 0 power" and trained hard, it only happened in the original and only in the beginner and even with that goku already showed being more your prodigy character based on how fast and much strong he get over time and his ability to fast learn by just watching many skills than being just the "under dog", i was like that on goku in the beginner but later he just turned to be the "overpowered gary stu" of animes, where he easy get most of the power ups and most of the times is the guy to save the day, even when gohan killed cell it was thanks to "goku" helping him from the dead, he must be there all the times he is the smuggler which not allow anyone to really shyne because he is the "loved mc( again i'm also love him and dragon ball but that is really a truth about it and many shounens where the mc is the big savior).

I really don't have any issue toward cauliflar or kale or do feel anything forced at this point specially when they get in a point where the power scales need to be big because of the new gods levels.

Spoiler:

The point is that room is given for speculation, we are allowed to speculate because there's a lot of time left completely unknown. Also, where did Vegeta's speech suggest for a moment that Trunks hadn't seen SS before? I don't recall that at all, and it wasn't long ago that I rewatched the material. It's only natural that he'd be shocked at his son's ability to transform regardless of whether he knew of SS or not, as Vegeta had never seen a transformation triggered by anything but rage, meaning either his son had had one heck of a tantrum without his noticing or the boy had figured out the transformation on his own. And yet again, as for why not Caulifla if the others can, I will again say consider the time. The others worked at it for a long time. Goku only pulled it off in fury (and my translation didn't show him screaming about Krillin so I don't know about that either). Vegeta trained to near death and then blew up. Gohan trained for a year. Trunks and Goten grew up training under people with that level of power. Caulifla just tried it and it happened.

And actually, yes Dragon Ball IS like that. Not to the same extent as MHA or Naruto or any number of other series, but again they do have the heroes struggle to attain their powers, with lots of hard work over weeks, months, even a year or more. Unlike simple energy techniques like Kamehameha, power-ups and transformations take time. Yes, Goku is a Mary Sue, but even then as I said it's a difficult process. Heck, they wouldn't even have needed to make it all THAT long, just make it more complicated or more of a struggle. Goku took forty minutes to figure out UI but we saw him do so and saw him desperately struggle to achieve that level. If they'd shown Caulifla maybe fight Cabba and struggle and eventually transformed because she couldn't stand being unable to, it wouldn't have rubbed the wrong way and wouldn't have really taken all that much more time. But instead she just tries it and it works, which is a level of Mary Sue Goku hasn't pulled since the early days.

And btw, can you please offer one suggestion of why not one person has managed to pull of the transformation by dumb luck? Because again, it's not a difficult thing anymore.

[Tong]

dude, you guys
lmao

[Mad Pierrot]