GATE - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I'm curious. If you were the US leader how would you proceed in such situation?

While I'm on the side of "guys, just apply the MST3K mantra and enjoy it for what it is," I would say a more realistic US leader wouldn't get in this situation at all. They would have simply requested that Japan allow them to speak with the visitors from the Special Region, and given the alliance between the two countries they probably would have gotten an ok. Since this series isn't realism, of course, we have to understand how the logic in its universe works out.

Originally Posted by Hmm....

I'm not sure why people can't see how useful this kidnapping can be. I also don't know why people think Rory will be main target. There is a lot more important figure with them. Princess Pina, she represent all sort of usefulness. Any country would want to get a hand on her.

Princess Piña isn't there as far as most people know. She wasn't displayed on national TV, there is no news whatsoever of negotations or of high-ranking nobility from the Special Region visiting Japan. Her visit is secret. Even if the foreign kidnappers are aware that there are two other people visiting with Itami's group, there is almost certainly no way they can know who they are. That is why I do not believe the princess is an intentional target of this kidnapping attempt.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Yes, because African countries totally were the prime suspects to attack Japan..lol. Just read what this guy wrote:


If the main suspects were the US, Russia and China, is that so outrageous and racist for the Japanese to think the black soldiers came from the US? Or is that common for China or even the "blondie" Russians to have black people in their armies too? Once again, i really do not understand what's the problem. It's as if some of you are so butthurt to see the americans as the "bad guys", when in reality, the anime is just showing the US trying to gain access to information about the GATE. What is also funny, is that the anime is portraying the Japanese leaders as dirty and corrupt, but no one bats an eye to that. I wonder why!

A point I made myself earlier. But if you read what he actually said and that I was responding to:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Also, while equating black men to America may seem reaching, statistically the chances of America having black men in its military forces are much, much higher than for any other country on Earth, given that almost a quarter of the US Armed Forces consists of African Americans, one of the highest proportions in any military anywhere.

Emphasis mine. Not "among the three suspects". "Any country on Earth". And that's a weird statement for the two reasons I noted.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

While I'm on the side of "guys, just apply the MST3K mantra and enjoy it for what it is," I would say a more realistic US leader wouldn't get in this situation at all. They would have simply requested that Japan allow them to speak with the visitors from the Special Region, and given the alliance between the two countries they probably would have gotten an ok.

Indeed, and if it doesn't work, then start a stink about human rights, because at that point, Japan would just be asking for it.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

While I'm on the side of "guys, just apply the MST3K mantra and enjoy it for what it is," I would say a more realistic US leader wouldn't get in this situation at all. They would have simply requested that Japan allow them to speak with the visitors from the Special Region, and given the alliance between the two countries they probably would have gotten an ok.

More or less this. It's the reason this particular part of the story is the one don't particularly like due to the fact that it flies in the face of normal diplomatic relations, especially with countries that have close ties like the US and Japan.

It's not like the Special Area people are escaped fugitives or threats to national security, and thus there should be no need for any country, not even China, to resort to kidnapping if they just want to extend an invitation to them.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Considering the modern geopolitical situation in the world today and the force projection capabilities of the nations in Africa, barring the Gate or not, do you really expect any African nation to be even capable of sending special forces into a deep-infiltration mission into the heart of Japan? To even consider such would be nonsense that'll get any self-respecting analyst thrown out of the room

It may have been something of an oversight of me to say that America has the largest proportion of black troops in any military, but that's just missing the point at this stage: the point is that among the militaries capable of sending trained special forces into Japan, the US is statistically the most likely country to have blacks among their roster.

Why is this discussion still going???

"Only America has black operatives" is never stated in the novel or the anime.
This whole argument utterly stupid.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

Negotiate the transfer of those "guests" with the blackmail material as backing. Just arrived at the same point as of the end of episode 9 minus a few deaths. Not to mention that the operation itself was moronic in preparation and execution.

Nice. It's a possible scenario. It's also boring as hell. Congratulations, you just made an uninteresting story to follow. I'm glad you are not the Gate's author :/
Plus, even if what happened in the anime was not the best choice of action by the US, they even explained such situations can occur in modern wars. It's just one of the possible scenarios that could happen. The author decided to pick one that would give us some action. It's just an anime right?

Plus, i also think blackmailing your allies should be the last resort. It's safer if instead, you send a small tactical team and hope you are not caught. But that's just me.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Princess Piña isn't there as far as most people know. She wasn't displayed on national TV, there is no news whatsoever of negotations or of high-ranking nobility from the Special Region visiting Japan. Her visit is secret. Even if the foreign kidnappers are aware that there are two other people visiting with Itami's group, there is almost certainly no way they can know who they are. That is why I do not believe the princess is an intentional target of this kidnapping attempt.

This was never discussed within any of the source novels but I believe they would have known about dignitaries visiting unannounced since they knew about the routes they were taking leaving the house of representatives building.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Znail

Why same level? This is taking place in Japan, it's natural that Japan has an advantage in several areas there.

Lets reverse this situation. Tomorrow CIA plans a secret meting some where in the US. What odds would you give for Japan to know about it and successfully launch an attack on that meeting (ignoring why they would do so)? Are you looking down on Japan if you think they would perhaps not have infiltrated every CIA operation or have agents with top notch equipment ready to do such an attack?

If it wasn't clear enough in my post, by the same level I mean Japan and the rest of the Earth nations being on one, and the world beyond the Gate another - ie. technological level.

Your scenario does not work because:

1. The scale of the institutions - every country have their intelligence arms, but I would find it hard to argue that Japan would be able to match the US in size, especially if you're talking about taking offensive action on the ground - intelligence gathering between allies tends to stay out of the regions where bullets are flying.

2. time frame - A day? I'm sorry, nobody would be able to pull off any op like you're suggesting within that time frame unless they already have assets on the ground, and if they don't, they're not going to have much beyond a remote chance at success, which means there won't be a mission in the first place. This is not a video game, failures have real serious repercussions, and is very much a basic part of every military ops planning, special ops or not.

But to answer your question directly, a resounding YES to if I would look down on Japan - not for the reason you listed, but for being foolish and stupid enough to launch such a half-assed mission that'll accomplish nothing but waste money and lifes.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by aohige

Spoilers

Spoiler for Comparison to the novels

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Yeah, i meant manga. Sorry about that.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Nice. It's a possible scenario. It's also boring as hell. Congratulations, you just made an uninteresting story to follow. I'm glad you are not the Gate's author :/
Plus, even if what happened in the anime was not the best choice of action by the US, they even explained such situations can occur in modern wars. It's just one of the possible scenarios that could happen. The author decided to pick one that would give us some action. It's just an anime right?

The thing about the entire scenario with the other countries, it's just really unnecessary to the story and the one section where the author's biases really come out. I'm an advocate of world-building and storyline developments that flesh out the setting through showing events either removed or only tangentially related to the "main" story, but this entire debacle just feels really unnecessary, especially considering what the rest of GATE's story will be covering in the future. You could remove the entire blackmail and spec ops attack sections and you'd still have more or less a complete story, and nobody here would've felt antagonized.

Just watching how the Special Area people react to the modern world, and the cultural shock and dissonance would've already been a nice, if action-less story in and of itself. GATE does politics better when dealing with the interaction between the Empire and Japan. Japan and the rest of the world though, really just feels pointless.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

More or less this. It's the reason this particular part of the story is the one don't particularly like due to the fact that it flies in the face of normal diplomatic relations, especially with countries that have close ties like the US and Japan.

It's not like the Special Area people are escaped fugitives or threats to national security, and thus there should be no need for any country, not even China, to resort to kidnapping if they just want to extend an invitation to them.

Relations between Japan and the rest of the world has worsened though in this story. Due to hogging everything related to the Gate and the other world so are Japan more isolated then they are in our current world. They could have given everyone else also access to the Gate, but they chose not to do that and that have annoyed their allies as well.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Znail

Relations between Japan and the rest of the world has worsened though in this story. Due to hogging everything related to the Gate and the other world so are Japan more isolated then they are in our current world. They could have given everyone else also access to the Gate, but they chose not to do that and that have annoyed their allies as well.

Why should Japan need to share?
It's like a nation, any nation had discovered a huge deposit of valuable natural resources within their territory. Would that nation share with the rest of the world?
Of course not!!
They will try to monopolize it for their own and will defend their sovereign territory from invading nations trying to gain access. That is a natural response of any nation especially if they have the military power to do so.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

The thing about the entire scenario with the other countries, it's just really unnecessary to the story and the one section where the author's biases really come out. I'm an advocate of world-building and storyline developments that flesh out the setting through showing events either removed or only tangentially related to the "main" story, but this entire debacle just feels really unnecessary, especially considering what the rest of GATE's story will be covering in the future. You could remove the entire blackmail and spec ops attack sections and you'd still have more or less a complete story, and nobody here would've felt antagonized.

Just watching how the Special Area people react to the modern world, and the cultural shock and dissonance would've already been a nice, if action-less story in and of itself. GATE does politics better when dealing with the interaction between the Empire and Japan. Japan and the rest of the world though, really just feels pointless.

It does not feel pointless to me. Just look at that awesome scene with Rory and the congress woman. That moment was just to show how badass Rory is. Not only in the battlefield but also with her words. Plus, why would anyone ever feel antagonized by such situations? It's just an anime. And if instead the US, we had Portugal (lets pretend my country is a superpower..lol) as the bad guys, do you actually think i would be angry at it? It's just a story/fiction for cry out loud. I can understand people not liking some situations because they think it's not the best course of action or it could be done better, but being "insulted" by it it's just beyond my comprehension.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I'm curious. If you were the US leader how would you proceed in such situation?

Purely diplomatic. This isn't hunting for Bin Laden in Pakistan, forcibly kidnapping visiting dignitaries from your major regional ally for what amounts to basic intel gathering is so utterly retarded, especially given the blowblack you're going to deal with even if it was successful. Unless the US was planning to declare war on and invading Japan, what they did in the show is a non-starter.

They assumed it were americans and confirmed it when confronting the guy who blackmailed the Japanese minister. It was just a guess. Plus, calling it "casual racism" to things like this is just people overreacting over nothing. We really live in an over sensitive society :/

That's not how things work. In the real world, you actually want to identify the person first and do your basic homework before you run off and accuse another country of attacking you. And if you can't see how looking at someone's skin and decide based on that alone where they must be from is racism, well, I can't really help you there.

Originally Posted by aohige

Why is this discussion still going???

"Only America has black operatives" is never stated in the novel or the anime.
This whole argument utterly stupid.

No, you're right, it was never stated outright.

On the other hand, the implication was plain enough for everyone to see. The only way they could've been more obvious would've been stating it outright.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Nice. It's a possible scenario. It's also boring as hell. Congratulations, you just made an uninteresting story to follow. I'm glad you are not the Gate's author :/
Plus, even if what happened in the anime was not the best choice of action by the US, they even explained such situations can occur in modern wars. It's just one of the possible scenarios that could happen. The author decided to pick one that would give us some action. It's just an anime right?

Plus, i also think blackmailing your allies should be the last resort. It's safer if you instead send a small tactic team and hope you are not caught. But that's just me.

Nations, even allies, "blackmail" each other all the time and they almost never send attack squads to kill allied solders so it is a stupid scenario. And it does not give us action it gives us a shooting gallery.

But thinking about it the main point of all this is that the JSFD can not be hurt or lose. The worse damage they have had so far is one solder being roughed up by some girls. You know apart from the military porn this show is even less realistic then Outbreak Company, which takes some doing.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Znail

Relations between Japan and the rest of the world has worsened though in this story. Due to hogging everything related to the Gate and the other world so are Japan more isolated then they are in our current world. They could have given everyone else also access to the Gate, but they chose not to do that and that have annoyed their allies as well.

While Japan doing rules-lawyering to treat the Special Area as an annexation of their territory is a rather spectacular move, it's not like anyone can really contest the claim, since the only entrance to said Special Area is in the middle of a Japanese city. It's pure, simple geographical fact, enforced by existing laws regarding territory rights. A better writer might probably (hopefully) take account of the fact that it's likely Japanese were not the only ones caught in the attack given the area, but since in this story only Japanese suffered casualties, then the entire thing becomes solely a Japanese issue. It's much like how nobody else in other countries gets too sore if the MILF suddenly stage an invasion of a major city in the Philippines and only locals get involved, but some of their countrymen get caught in the attack and they suddenly get legitimate reason to get involved.

That still doesn't give anyone the right to resort to such drastic measures though - the usual order is for the diplomatic channels to be opened first, and only then send in the troops once negotiations have broken down. Hell, the US doesn't immediately resort to military force in the majority of major conflicts they've been involved in within the last few decades including the War on Terror, and that's against people they have every reason to hate, as overreaching as it got eventually.

There's a reason stuff like the UN exist.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

It does not feel pointless to me. Just look at that awesome scene with Rory and the congress woman.

Never did I say that scene was pointless (the entire thing with the Diet falls under the purview of the "cultural dissonance" part). I am referring exclusively to the "blackmail and spec ops attack" bits as mentioned, which imho is the lowest point of GATE's writing.

As for being antagonized, I personally am not. Though as can be seen in this, and other GATE threads I've seen years before, this particular part of the story definitely sets people off in all sorts of ways, and I'm merely stating that fact.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Nice. It's a possible scenario. It's also boring as hell. Congratulations, you just made an uninteresting story to follow. I'm glad you are not the Gate's author :/

You asked "what would you do if you were the US leader", not "what would you write if you were the author". Try to remember what you wrote in the first place before attempting to make fun of others.

If I were the writer? Write some action in it that actually looks like action instead of morons getting killed like they are zombies.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Why should Japan need to share?
It's like a nation, any nation had discovered a huge deposit of valuable natural resources within their territory. Would that nation share with the rest of the world?
Of course not!!
They will try to monopolize it for their own and will defend their sovereign territory from invading nations trying to gain access. That is a natural response of any nation especially if they have the military power to do so.

Because being on good terms and building bridges with other countries specially their allies good for them in the long run, what do you think will happen if someday the gate closes and dissapears forever?

The consequences could be catastrophic for japan in the long run, literally everytime they need some kind of help from another country they will be reminded of their actions, meanwhile the other countries will take advantage of japan and use them as their however they see fit, heck they could even deny them any sort of help and Japan would be stuck down shit-creek without a paddle.

Japan would just end up becoming it's allies bitch and it would all be of their own doing, harsh but true

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Why should Japan need to share?
It's like a nation, any nation had discovered a huge deposit of valuable natural resources within their territory. Would that nation share with the rest of the world?
Of course not!!
They will try to monopolize it for their own and will defend their sovereign territory from invading nations trying to gain access. That is a natural response of any nation especially if they have the military power to do so.

Japan does not have the military to do so. It is a small island nation that is totally dependent on imports to survive.

Also the Gate is the single most disestablishing event to happen in human history. I do not think there is a country in the world strong enough to hold it for themselves. The two that come the closest would be the US and China. But even trying to hold it would almost certainly lead to WW3.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by kyp275

If it wasn't clear enough in my post, by the same level I mean Japan and the rest of the Earth nations being on one, and the world beyond the Gate another - ie. technological level.

Your scenario does not work because:

1. The scale of the institutions - every country have their intelligence arms, but I would find it hard to argue that Japan would be able to match the US in size, especially if you're talking about taking offensive action on the ground - intelligence gathering between allies tends to stay out of the regions where bullets are flying.

2. time frame - A day? I'm sorry, nobody would be able to pull off any op like you're suggesting within that time frame unless they already have assets on the ground, and if they don't, they're not going to have much beyond a remote chance at success, which means there won't be a mission in the first place. This is not a video game, failures have real serious repercussions, and is very much a basic part of every military ops planning, special ops or not.

But to answer your question directly, a resounding YES to if I would look down on Japan - not for the reason you listed, but for being foolish and stupid enough to launch such a half-assed mission that'll accomplish nothing but waste money and lifes.

But how can you both have the view that it would be impossible and at the same time think they should do a lot better then they did? Those do not mix well.

I admit that it does make the ones in charge look bad, but that is another thing then the complaints about how it makes the operatives look. But I also do not find it that absurd as it could have worked, if it had not been an ambush like it were. If the only protection were Itami and the girl sgt, then the forces sent doesn't look quite as absurd.

Their was a leak earlier so the other nations did have an idea about what was going on. But that was as Itami suspected cut when the Japanese agent was sent away. This also explains why their were assets in the area. Just not with optimal gear.

The initial set up had the guests being escorted by essentially plain cloths secret service agents. That is essentially elite cops, with pistols and maybe a collapsible baton. The para-military operatives doesn't look that under equiped against that. It's just that Japan swapped out the plain cloth guards for military spec ops with thermal goggles and sniper rifles.

This obviously makes the other nations looks like idiots, but I still fail to see how it is absurd that Japanese could not manage to keep that set up secret without other nations automatically finding out. The control room was rather empty as well so it seems they kept the number of people in the know about the ambush to a bare minimum. Apart from the actual spec ops so was it basically limited to Itami, Defence minister and one aide. Is it absurd that none of them were a traitor?

It's also worth noting that the Japanese is not all knowing as they were neither prepared for it being 3 nations nor that US would be one of them. I wold also say that it makes US look less bad the rest as they had at least a plan B for when this one didn't work. On the other hand so would the other nations not need a back up plan as they don't care what Japan thinks about them that much.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Purely diplomatic. This isn't hunting for Bin Laden in Pakistan, forcibly kidnapping visiting dignitaries from your major regional ally for what amounts to basic intel gathering is so utterly retarded, especially given the blowblack you're going to deal with even if it was successful. Unless the US was planning to declare war on and invading Japan, what they did in the show is a non-starter.

I thought the US already tried that way. Japan just refused to share the Gate. That's why they sent the tactical team to get information about it.

Originally Posted by kyp275

That's not how things work. In the real world, you actually want to identify the person first and do your basic homework before you run off and accuse another country of attacking you. And if you can't see how looking at someone's skin and decide based on that alone where they must be from is racism, well, I can't really help you there.

Oh really. So me assuming someone is asian because they have those characteristic small eyes is racism? I did not knew i was discriminating/insulting someone for pointing the obvious and trying to guess the race accordingly to it's phenotype.
Next time someone looks at me and says i'm caucasian i will remember to feel insulted.

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Nations, even allies, "blackmail" each other all the time and they almost never send attack squads to kill allied solders so it is a stupid scenario. And it does not give us action it gives us a shooting gallery.

But thinking about it the main point of all this is that the JSFD can not be hurt or lose. The worse damage they have had so far is one solder being roughed up by some girls. You know apart from the military porn this show is even less realistic then Outbreak Company, which takes some doing.

With "almost" being the key word there right? It's not a totally impossible scenario.
So, you are upset, because the heroes of this anime completely dominated the US soldiers? Well, sometimes i also feel frustrated that the angels are always portrayed as more powerfull than the demons, unless one of the demons is actually the hero and thus more powerfull. See where i'm going? It's a fictional story, not a documentary about who would win between the Special Forces from the two said countries.

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

You asked "what would you do if you were the US leader", not "what would you write if you were the author". Try to remember what you wrote in the first place before attempting to make fun of others.

If I were the writer? Write some action in it that actually looks like action instead of morons getting killed like they are zombies.

I did not made fun of you. Just pointing out this is just a fictional story. But yes, my bad for not explaining it right.
So, i guess you are not an Overlord like anime fan. Some people actually like to see the heroes stomping their enemies for a change, instead of the typical punch bags they usually are, until the very last fight where they suddenly win just because they are the good guys. But, to each is own.