Espada and Vizard Discussion

[Winterwolf]

This is something that interested me a while back, if youve got something to say bout it, go ahead!, id love to hear everyones theories about them

[Super_Gilby]

Espada by like a lot, i doubt that the shinji vizard group has any members stronger then byakuya or kenpachi

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Super_Gilby

Espada by like a lot, i doubt that the shinji vizard group has any members stronger then byakuya or kenpachi

Last i checked, Shinji was whaking around Grimjow like he was nothing and has a better master of his Vizard powers than Ichigo. He is more than likely ATLEAST on ichigo's level if not stronger.

and Hachi is an insteresting one aswell... seeing as his powers are similar to Orihime's, he may aslo of the powers that reject the will of God... though he seems like he has a far better mastery of it

Really i thiink Kubo has been painting the two groups as being reletivly equal overall... Vizards are shinigami with hollow powers, and the Espada are Hollows with Shinigami powers...in a way their opposites but in another way that are almost the same. Since i highly doubt that their part in the story is over, you can be sure we will see them again and probably fighting some big fights

[Bocca]

I got a weird feeling they (Vizards) may be the final boss. -.-

[cheese no koma]

slayerx pretty much summed up the lot. Just a few things to add, i think the vizards are probably more on the defensive side given their abilities to ignore injuries while in hollow form. An espada's release probably has more burst in terms of power.

[F3rNanD3s]

Vizard < Espada

Hollowified Vizard > Espada

Hollowified Vizard < Zanpakutoh-released Espada

Thats how e anime has potrayed their power gauge....

[Winterwolf]

but besides having a release zampaktou, espada dont get any other shinigami powers, vizard get ceros, and last i checked, there were still 9 vizard, so I do have a feeling, that they may have a bigger role- maybe Aizens new espada?

[LightningZERO]

I think Vizard is stronger than Espada. Hirako with just his mask, no release is whacking Grimjow around. Ichigo is almost the weakest of the Vizard (maybe stronger than Hiyori though) and he manages to defeat

Spoiler for Manga Spoiler:

Grimjow, the number six Espada

So I think overall Vizard is stronger than Espada.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by F3rNanD3s

Vizard < Espada

Hollowified Vizard > Espada

Hollowified Vizard < Zanpakutoh-released Espada

Thats how e anime has potrayed their power gauge....

Ofcourse we do not have enough screen time for the vizards to really say that... I really don't know where you get that.
For one thing, the espada's vary greatly in strength, there is a huge gap between Grim jow and Yammi, and an even bigger leap to the top 3; so you can't really lump the Espada like that... as for the rest of the Espada and the rest of the Vizards, we have absolutly NOTHING to gauge their strength against that of the Vizards... none of the vizards have ever been in a fight where they were beaten or were evenly matched (it's only with those kind of fights that we can get an idea for their limit)... the ONLY fight we have for the Vizards is Shinji vs Grim jow, and that was so one sided that we have no idea how much Shinji might have been holding back... Hell, Ichigo uses both Bankai AND vizard powers to knock around unreleased GrimJow while Shinji uses ONLY his Vizard powers; He does not even release his sword, much less go all the way to Bankai (thats two more power ups)... considering how Shinji should have atleast Shiki we know for certain he was holding back (though i think its VERY likely that he has Bankai as well)

frankly, since i don't think the vizard's part in this story is done, i'm willing to wager that Shinji is strong enough to fight with the top 3 Espada... a good possibility for Hiyori aswell... though i think it might be stretching it to include the others after that... there's a possibility, but its rather iffy... i would however say that i feel certain that all of the Vizards could fight at atleast Yami's released level if not better... so overall, i'm guessing Espada=Vizards

Originally Posted by LightningZERO

maybe stronger than Hiyori though

I'm guessing your saying that from how long it took her to beat her hollow aswell as how Ichigo nearly pwn'd her when he went uncontrollled vizard on her... for one thing, i'm not sure how long it takes to beat a hollow relates to the overall strength of the vizard... On the one hand, it might be reflective of how strong the shinigami is, on the other hand, it might reflect how strong the hollow's potential power is; such that it may actually be a good sign if it takes you a long time to beat a hollow (like most shonen characters, Ichigo is destined to be the strongest, so this might be a bit of evidence of that)... furtharmore, we have no idea how Hiyori has been a vizard so she could have had LOTs of time to grow stronger... As for nearly getting Pwn'd by Ichigo... i wouldn't read to much into it because for one thing he did rather get the jump on her.

lookign at the kind of role she plays in the group... i kind of think of her as the second in command of the vizards so she must be relativly close to Shinji... could be wrong though...

[Winterwolf]

*keep in mind that vizard also have shingami named zampaktou, and not an arrancar *original form release, this boosts up by heaps,
1. Espada have only the zampaktou, they havent learned kidou or any other shingami exclusive abilities
2. as i said earlier, vizard get ceros and insane speed and strength
which should say that vizards aka. shingami > vizard get more of a bonus than hollow> Arrancar/ espada,

if there is anything ive missed to post, this is my first thread in the making, so thx for the few, who have already contributed

[The Chaos]

The Espada Is much stronger Then Vizerd (I gauss )....
Winterwolf...Nice avatar ...

[Winterwolf]

Originally Posted by The Chaos

The Espada Is much stronger Then Vizerd (I gauss )....
Winterwolf...Nice avatar ...

thx lol, got it from the avatar and sig request thread

[F3rNanD3s]

Originally Posted by Winterwolf

but besides having a release zampaktou, espada dont get any other shinigami powers, vizard get ceros, and last i checked, there were still 9 vizard, so I do have a feeling, that they may have a bigger role- maybe Aizens new espada?

What powers does shinigami have other than their trademark bankai and flashsteps. and i think not all can use Kido techniques.....
even a genius like Toushirou has been struggling against lowly arrancars.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Ofcourse we do not have enough screen time for the vizards to really say that... I really don't know where you get that.

yeap of coz. if not, it woukd have defeat e purpose of this thread if e power gauge is clean n clear of whos stronger than who.
my views are certainly based on the anime latest episodes.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

it's only with those kind of fights that we can get an idea for their limit)... the ONLY fight we have for the Vizards is Shinji vs Grim jow, and that was so one sided that we have no idea how much Shinji might have been holding back...

as can be seen, Shinji in his normal vizard form can oli hide n run from Grimm's attack.
Call on his mask and certainly overpower Grimm
but then, Shinji looked stunned and shock when Grimm got up and wielded his zanpakutoh( seems like Grimm is having a powerup)
therefore, all along Grimm has been fighting in his normal state and has been holding back his powers. and im quite sure of that.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Hell, Ichigo uses both Bankai AND vizard powers to knock around unreleased GrimJow while Shinji uses ONLY his Vizard powers; He does not even release his sword, much less go all the way to Bankai (thats two more power ups)... considering how Shinji should have atleast Shiki we know for certain he was holding back (though i think its VERY likely that he has Bankai as well)

thought shinji actually deflected Grim's pointblank cero with his shikai....

okay... i overlooked e part that shnji might have a bankai.... but i think Shinji himself knew that even Ichigo's bankai cant do a thing to him and thats why he called on his hollow mask instead.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

frankly, since i don't think the vizard's part in this story is done, i'm willing to wager that Shinji is strong enough to fight with the top 3 Espada... a good possibility for Hiyori aswell... though i think it might be stretching it to include the others after that... there's a possibility, but its rather iffy... i would however say that i feel certain that all of the Vizards could fight at atleast Yami's released level if not better... so overall, i'm guessing Espada=Vizards

Yeapz... maybe just maybe that Shinji has what it takes to actually take on the top Espadas.

but as u mentioned, the difference in power between e top few Espadas and the bottom are realli vast.

Yammy is certainly out of qns which ichigo's bankai is sufficed to deal with but i think Shinji cant make it if he were to face the top 5 espadas.
though, he has e potential just like ichigo.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by F3rNanD3s

as can be seen, Shinji in his normal vizard form can oli hide n run from Grimm's attack.
Call on his mask and certainly overpower Grimm
but then, Shinji looked stunned and shock when Grimm got up and wielded his zanpakutoh( seems like Grimm is having a powerup)
therefore, all along Grimm has been fighting in his normal state and has been holding back his powers. and im quite sure of that.

Y'know last i checked, being able to easily avoid an enemies attacks was good evidence that character is faster... Shinji dodged Grim's attacks because he didn't feel like blocking them, not because he was unable to... unlike Ichigo, Shinji had no problem staying a step ahead of Grim. i mean really, Ichigo, while using his high speed Bankai was not even able to run and dodge from Grimjow, while Shinji with out any kind of high speed power up was able to it effortlessly... that feels like almost enough to say that normal Shinji is about even or stronger than bankai Ichigo

The only thing Grim was holding back was his release... there's no way he would fight a loosing battle and hold himself back, Shinji was completly dominating that fight. Grimjow does have a power up, his release, but conisdering how badly he was being beaten and how much stronger past aranacar have gotten by releasing, the release would probably even things out, and not exactly turn it into him dominating... Especially if Shinji still had a Shikai and Bankai to power up to which would allow him to rip apart Grimjow's released form

thought shinji actually deflected Grim's pointblank cero with his shikai....

Considering Shinji's sword did not under go any kind of change, i would not say that was a shikai attack... considering how he was once an Shinigami, it was more likely a Kido blast of some kind.

okay... i overlooked e part that shnji might have a bankai.... but i think Shinji himself knew that even Ichigo's bankai cant do a thing to him and thats why he called on his hollow mask instead.

Not sure how that backs up your point...
When a shinigami uses Bankai they become much more powerful. The same would hold true for Vizards... Bankai + Hollow mask > Hollow mask alone

It really doesn't change the fact that Shinji would be more powerful if he were to use Bankai in addition to his hollow mask

Considering Shinji appears to be at atleast Inhcigo's level (if not greater), that would put him on the same level as SS captains, and thus it seems very likely that he would have a Bankai

Yammy is certainly out of qns which ichigo's bankai is sufficed to deal with but i think Shinji cant make it if he were to face the top 5 espadas.
though, he has e potential just like ichigo.

Well if shinji does indeed have Bnaki, then i would say that he would definatly have what it takes to fight in the top 5, cause that would mean he was slapping around Grimjow when he still had another huge power up he could use

[kadenza]

the only time ive seen a vizard in action was shinji vs grimjaw, when shiniji pwned grimjaws face

to me it seems vizard is ALOT stronger then the espada, or at least those below number 4 espada

[ILikeSquiReLz]

Keep in mind that Grim was not at his full capabilities when he fought Shinji.

[Goshin]

shinji wasn't either

[F3rNanD3s]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Y'know last i checked, being able to easily avoid an enemies attacks was good evidence that character is faster... Shinji dodged Grim's attacks because he didn't feel like blocking them, not because he was unable to... unlike Ichigo, Shinji had no problem staying a step ahead of Grim. i mean really, Ichigo, while using his high speed Bankai was not even able to run and dodge from Grimjow, while Shinji with out any kind of high speed power up was able to it effortlessly... that feels like almost enough to say that normal Shinji is about even or stronger than bankai Ichigo

I believed if Ichigo were to dodge Grimm's attack using his Bankai speed instead of attacking him in e 1st place, he would have easily prevented hits from Grimm just like Shinji.

n that doesnt really proved and don't agreed that normal shinji is actually on par or stronger than bankai Ichigo, considering Ichigo can actually fight evenly with full p0werd Byakuya.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

The only thing Grim was holding back was his release... there's no way he would fight a loosing battle and hold himself back, Shinji was completly dominating that fight. Grimjow does have a power up, his release, but conisdering how badly he was being beaten and how much stronger past aranacar have gotten by releasing, the release would probably even things out, and not exactly turn it into him dominating... Especially if Shinji still had a Shikai and Bankai to power up to which would allow him to rip apart Grimjow's released form

Yeap. but don't 4get that Grimm has been fighting Hollow Ichigo earlier on and the physical strained and damages he suffered is siginificant.

to be exact, its actually 3 against 1.

and all along, he was fighting in his normal state .

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Not sure how that backs up your point...
When a shinigami uses Bankai they become much more powerful. The same would hold true for Vizards... Bankai + Hollow mask > Hollow mask alone

It really doesn't change the fact that Shinji would be more powerful if he were to use Bankai in addition to his hollow mask

Considering Shinji appears to be at atleast Inhcigo's level (if not greater), that would put him on the same level as SS captains, and thus it seems very likely that he would have a Bankai


Well if shinji does indeed have Bnaki, then i would say that he would definatly have what it takes to fight in the top 5, cause that would mean he was slapping around Grimjow when he still had another huge power up he could use

All your points are only valid IF ONLY Shinji does has a Bankai.

But i believed while Shinji is cero-ing Grimm, he did mentioned that Grimm is a really strong opponent, theres no reason for him to hold back anything and therefore, blasting a really huge Cero on Grimm.

this could actually tells us that he does not possess a Bankai ....

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by kadenza

the only time ive seen a vizard in action was shinji vs grimjaw, when shiniji pwned grimjaws face

to me it seems vizard is ALOT stronger then the espada, or at least those below number 4 espada

Yeah, regarding that fight.. I don't see how Grimm was beaten by Shinji as badly as many people say. It's true that Shinji dodged Grimm's attack and overwhelmed him with a cero, but it's not like he beat Grimm to a bloody pulp. I mean good guys often get beaten far worse than that at the beginning of a fight and then prove themselves to be much stronger than the opponent. If we were to judge by only the first few attacks of Ichigo vs. Renji in SS then Renji >> Ichigo, but we know how that turned out.

I think Shinji's attack may have looked more impressive than it actually was because of the fact that Grimm was already maimed, injured and frustrated before he started fighting with Shinji. Not to mention he seemed caught off guard by a shinigami using a hollow attack.

But I'd agree that generally the vizard = espada and that Shinji is probably the most powerful vizard as of now. However for story sake, I believe that the top 1 or 2 ranked espada are probably much more powerful than current vizard group. Ichigo will stand out by being the vizard which reaches that level of power.

Originally Posted by F3rNanD3s

All your points are only valid IF ONLY Shinji does has a Bankai.

But i believed while Shinji is cero-ing Grimm, he did mentioned that Grimm is a really strong opponent, theres no reason for him to hold back anything and therefore, blasting a really huge Cero on Grimm.

this could actually tells us that he does not possess a Bankai ....

Somehow, I could see it being the case that Shinji and the other vizard do not have bankai. Afterall, it would prove the power of the masks that normal shinigami who had no bankai (maybe not even shikai) could master their hollow to the point where their masks alone could grant them speed and power rivaling that of bankai Ichigo. Ichigo is still getting used to his vizard form and hasn't completed training. So the power boost he gets from his mask may be smaller compared to the others.

[Super_Gilby]

Originally Posted by Bocca

I got a weird feeling they (Vizards) may be the final boss. -.-

yeah aizen gin and toussen as vizards is likely