Macross Frontier - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[dodgethis_sg]

Originally Posted by mikesince83

I was hoping and praying Macross wouldn't transform into a giant mecha. It was almost painful as the scene unfolded knowing exactly what was going to happen yet all the while willing myself to believe maybe, just maybe they would do something with a little originality. But no. Giant space mecha it is.

Originally Posted by cerrian

Do you realize that within these first 7 episodes, we have had 6 different insert songs. With the exception of ep. 2, there has been a unique insert song for each episode. At this rate it'll be more of a bloody musical than a mecha show.

Both new to the Macross franchise I see. Take away these two and it becomes another generic mecha anime with transforming planes.

[cerrian]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

@Wesley: If ya don't like Frontier so much, ya don't havta watch it. It gets tiring listening to griping and griping again and again.

Eh...don't pick a fight with him. He's just being overly critical of a series he enjoys. Although he can beat a topic to death, most of his critiques tend to be well argued or have interesting points. In any case, it is a lot better than having blind fanboys ranting and raving on the soap box (see Code Geass forums or try slandering Haruhi =) ) .

Originally Posted by dodgethis_sg

Both new to the Macross franchise I see. Take away these two and it becomes another generic mecha anime with transforming planes.

I point this out because not only is it unusual for a TV series, but it is also the most we've gotten from any Macross series. Even SDF and M7 didn't provide us with this many insert songs in the first 7 episodes. Only Macross Plus comes close, but then again it's an OAV.

So the question stands to be asked: Can Macross Frontier keep the pace up or will it drop to the levels of M7? Considering that we're only 1/4 of the way into the series and Ranka's musical career has yet to be explored, I wouldn't be surprised if there is another 6 insert songs on the way with a 2nd OST.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I laughed when he starting locking on to everything and fired a bunch of missles, but didn't the Vajra have some kind of chaff, along with the ECM in the first episode? Not to mention the Vajra didn't seem to be using the missles they supposedly had.

Looks like they've fixed the drone and missile nerf the Vajra did in the beginning. The military is probably using the foldspace com link Luca was using to bypass any interferance the bugs could put out. A missile spam air grunt can probably nail a Vajra now with them.

[Panzerklein]

This ep show up a gay in red mech, why many gays in anime 8-}.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

This ep show up a gay in red mech, why many gays in anime 8-}.

That's Brera "Kira Yamato" Stern to you.

Using some improved Macross Plus tech makes him godly.

I know he is technically Alto's Nekki Basara I just hope he doesn't go sound energy harmonica spamming the Vajra.

[squaresphere]

hah he looks to emo to pump out manly songs of awesome ala Basara

[ashesatdusk]

Well I enjoyed that Music Video immensely. I watched it a few times.

are all the other macross like this? I understood songtress played a fairly big roll in them...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Taking turns at bat and the apparent ease of it sapped my interest in the battle. I thought the first person perspective from Alto as he watched Ozma blow away everything in front of him was interesting though. It was like being there yourself.

That was pretty good, but there wasn't any way to keep it like that for too long.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Some seem to think Ranka and Sheryl caused the battle to be lacking. I don't really believe there was all that much they could've added to it, but I also see how the parts with Ranka and Sheryl weren't really needed since we're bound to cover the same ground again at a later time. Basically "No hard feelings, and I'm still a fan of yours".

I get the feeling that the creators were trying to convey something quite different - that they were associated by the knowledge that people they knew were fighting for their lives at that very moment. Ranka joined in as a sign of doing what she could for them.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Episode Four's Jutaposition is still the best one by far. Tossing in the heart made by drive trails really makes it hard to top.

That's a good example. My favorite is Diamond Crevasse playing at the end of episode 6. The lyrics fit the departure of the fleet perfectly, and I think that it worked on quite a few different levels.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

And it's possible he has two others just like it. I think the last time I saw something like that was in a video game. Also, I believe it implies that not only are they manueverable, but they're really tough as well, since cutting corners like that and the instanteous acceleration implies a very high number of Gs. Assuming the fighter still has to be built to withstand them, it'll be very hardy indeed.

It'll have the same structural sturdiness of the older Valkyries, so that shouldn't be that much of a surprise. The YF-19 already had a g-limit of +31.0/- 18.5.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

For whatever it may have really meant. She is a performer afterall, and I wouldn't have put it past her to exaggerate a bit. You know, for the fans, for the stage.

I find this quite unlikely since her actions ran counter to her stage image, and the fans were unaware that there was fighting going on during the concert. Only Ranka really knew why she was so broken up, and that was the very point of the scene.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

The bigger shame is that apparently it was either transform and rush in directly or run away altogether. As if Quarter being there single handiedly decided the outcome. Just more proof that I shouldn't expect anything from the regular military beyond being background explosions.

The regular military had been greatly reduced from their former glory by the time of Macross 7. I do hope that we get a better showing later, but I don't know if it'll be in the offing. It's also worth pointing out that the SMS is technically the military as well.

By the way, don't knock the ineffectualness of the NUNS warships too much. From the looks of it, they only deployed dedicated carriers, so they didn't have any Macross cannons with which to kill that Vajra mothership. I guess that it's conceivable that their combined firepower could have even taken it down, but they would have suffered heavy casualties, and probably failed their mission.

Originally Posted by Tabris

I really don't think that Gs will have a massive effect on a ship in microgravity environments. I don't know a lot about space (nor do I really care, also lol realism in anime) but even turns like that shouldn't have that much impact on a ship in space.

I'm sure it is tougher than a normal VF and we know it's much more agile too, but still, Gs shouldn't mean a lot in space...I think

G-forces in space are more likely to be the product of accelerating a vehicle rather than gravity caused by space-time distortions. The fighters will be under both straight-line g-forces generated by thrust as well as perceived forces caused by rotation. In this (and quite a few other) regard, the Macross shows are a fair bit more realisitic than a lot of other anime out there.

Originally Posted by Expendable GM Pilot

I guess I wasn't pay attention but where are you guys getting this info from? That the guy's name is Brera and he's piloting a VF-27.

Brera's name is shown in the credits, and the VF-27 monicker is still just speculation. The fighter does bear NUNS insignia, so it's probably fairly accurate to give it a standard model number.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

All Biblical names. I wonder if it's meant to mean something for Luca's character or if the writers are just being smarter-pants.

I doubt that there's anything special about the naming scheme - just like there isn't anything special about the Galaxy ships being given Arabic names for aquatic animals or the Frontier ships being named after Greek titans.

Originally Posted by cerrian

Eh...don't pick a fight with him. He's just being overly critical of a series he enjoys. Although he can beat a topic to death, most of his critiques tend to be well argued or have interesting points. In any case, it is a lot better than having blind fanboys ranting and raving on the soap box (see Code Geass forums or try slandering Haruhi =) ) .

I agree. This is a discussion thread; not an appreciation thread, so all manner of insights and criticisms are welcome. Wesley84's points have some merit, and they don't deserve to be shouted down. On the other hand, if anyone wants to refute those points he (or anyone else) brought up, then feel free to do so.

Originally Posted by ashesatdusk

Well I enjoyed that Music Video immensely. I watched it a few times.

are all the other macross like this? I understood songtress played a fairly big roll in them...

The other Macross shows do bear some resemblence to Frontier, especially the combination of song and battle, but they differ in other substantial ways. If you're interested in watching more of the same, Macross Plus is a pretty good place to start. If you don't mind '80s animation, then checking out the original SDF Macross is a must; alternatively, the Do You Remember Love movie is a pretty good alternative. Personally, I think that the movie is still one of the best looking anime around, but tastes do differ substantially.

[Elandyll]

I laughed when he starting locking on to everything and fired a bunch of missles, but didn't the Vajra have some kind of chaff, along with the ECM in the first episode? Not to mention the Vajra didn't seem to be using the missles they supposedly had.

On their way to the engagement, Lucas mentions that they have solved the Vajra "Jamming" problem, which you have to assume covers both the drones and the missile guidance system.
In the same way, if you look right after the first Vajra bug gets slammed by Michael, you see one of the smaller one turn rapidly upon itself, which is the move they use to launch missiles in every direction. So the Vajra did use em, they just didn't show it, this time it was Ozma's turn

It's in a different weight class (much more massive than Frontier). There's no evidence it's disproportionally more powerful. And we're not sure what the Fold Reactor is supposed to mean at this point. If it's simple power generation or has something to do with navigating distortions.

By the number of anti aircraft Flaks alone, the Vajra Mothership (but was it really a "Mothership"?) was outclassing the Frontier easily. Thus them calling it a "Porcupine". I think that was the main reason explaining that they had to engage it quickly in close combat, couldn't use Fighters, and in ship to ship combat their main canon was a killer.

I do say it's probable that the mothership had been reinforcing the groups of strikecraft that were attacking the Galaxy ships from close by, and simply folded in to counter the Frontier Fleet.

That seems like a reasonable assumption.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Okay. Here's another: I'm tired of people telling me what to do, what I can and can't say, about their favorite series, and I'm REALLY sick of people personally attacking me because of it. And as if I don't point out the good in a series when it's there, though I will express doubts and pessimism, usually with a wry sense of humor, when I find grounds for it.

aww.. i still wuv you westley. you're fun to argue with. mainly because you're WRONG.

Macross banzai.

[Blue Reverie]

There were definitely at *least* 3 Guantanamo Class Carriers and 1 Uraga in the assault force. When Alto launches in his VF-25, you can see two Guantanmo carriers to the Macross Quarter's Starboard side, and the next camera angle (him flying away on takeoff) shows a Guantanmo and an Uraga to Macross Quarter's port side.

Assuming they have at least twice as many frigate/cruiser escorts as carriers, that is quite the assault force considering each Guantanmo carries 9 VF squadrons of a dozen planes, the Uraga class carries 18 squadrons (as well as 2 bomber squadrons), and the Bolognese frigate carries 3 squadrons each. (9x3)+18= 45 Squadrons or 540 VFs, not including any possible escort cruisers/frigates VF compliments.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

There are 'super' mecha.. but they're usually upgrades of existing ones - like when the Super packs first came out for the VF-1 back in the original Macross; big improvements, but nothing that makes the pilot godly. Just... tougher, as Ozma proved when he pulled that Itano Circus with his Armor pack.

Super packs add a lot more capability than the RX78's advantage over a GM. Or the Lazy 8 vs Ground type.

As for VF 25's being normal, the normal VF in Frontier is the 191. Which is markedly inferior.

Originally Posted by Westlo

You heard wrongly, Macross is a case of the main character not being the best pilot (like it is in every Gundam show)

Other than 0080 [Alfred is 11 and not a pilot], 0083 [Kou is outclassed by Burning, Gato and possibly Layzner and Cima], Igloo [Oliver never pilots a Mobile suit and Char or Monique is the best pilot.], Zeta [Camille's good but he's no Amuro, which is why Amuro sits out the second half.] or 8th Mobile Suit Team [Packard is the best Pilot, leaving the entire 8th Team in the dust.], which makes the majority of series Gundam I've seen having the hero as other than the best pilot.

At the moment Alto is on a par with Amuro in the original Gundam's equivalent episodes. Talented but underskilled compared to other characters and flying a production prototype.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Okay. Here's another: I'm tired of people telling me what to do, what I can and can't say, about their favorite series, and I'm REALLY sick of people personally attacking me because of it. And as if I don't point out the good in a series when it's there, though I will express doubts and pessimism, usually with a wry sense of humor, when I find grounds for it.

I don't mind doubts and pessimism at all (I'm one of the guys on the Nanoha OC forums who wargamed a senario of conventional infantry forces in urban fighting vs the mages of the TSAB and came to the conclusion that the TSAB sucks ass, period, and could only win via sheer weight of numbers and orbital strikes), it's just that after a while, Wes, it gets tiring. If ya do need to gripe... praise the good stuff, then gripe about the bad. And Ziglar's point still holds true.

That said one of my big disappointments is no VF-19 or VF-22. Those were sweet birds alright. *sighs*

I think I counted six other carriers with Quarter. There were a number of VFs on Quarter's flight deck, but I don't know what kind they were. Logically, Quarter's status as a Macross Battleship/Carrier Hybrid would limit the number of fighters they have on board, and you can kind of see it how there doesn't seem to be all that much interior space, even for the fighters themselves.

Quarter would have problems if they needed to launch fighters quickly me thinks.

That's true; Quarter's got really cramped insides and they also have a number of VF-25s undergoing workup in the hangar or just sitting there. Definately not as many as the Guantanamos or that Uraga. But from what I saw it looked like the VFs on the flight deck were -25s.

I laughed when he starting locking on to everything and fired a bunch of missles, but didn't the Vajra have some kind of chaff, along with the ECM in the first episode? Not to mention the Vajra didn't seem to be using the missles they supposedly had.

It's possible that SMS is using past data collection to improve their ECCM to counteract the jamming; Luca did say that the fold induction transmission system should keep the Vajra from jamming them. Assuming that Ozma's missiles are using SARH or command guidance, with a telemetry link to his unit, that would explain why they could lock on. That might be what his extra radome is for: missile control, perhaps. (although I'm not a big fan of this theory.)

The other thing is that the Vajra perhaps aren't using their ECM because it screws up with their targeting as well? Early brute force ECM did that, IIRC. The Raptor can do ECM and EW with its radar, but at the cost of losing radar fidelity and strenght (since you're using it as an EW kit, not a radar. Not to mention the loss of stealth).

Everyone seems to think he's a half, though it makes more sense for them to know eachother if he's a full. Although I don't really like them together. Mostly because I don't really like Michael. Don't hate him, but I don't like him either.

I don't really get why people think he's a half. *shrugs* I just thought "Mikhail/Klan for the lulz" once I realised that 1) Mikhail is flying a blue Valk, 2) Klan is a Meltrandi in a red Quad, 3) we all know what happened the last time a pilot in a blue valk and a Melt with red as her colors crossed paths.

All Biblical names. I wonder if it's meant to mean something for Luca's character or if the writers are just being smarter-pants.

Possibly both; seems to me like it's a case of What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic.

No, there were other groups of fighters that'd been launched. You can see the drives during one close up of Alto just before they'd engaged the Vajra. I'm fairly certain they aren't from the SMS, due to the number of them.

I was thinking that those were SMS valks, due to the purple trails, but it's probably a mix of them... unless my earlier hypothesis is wrong and SMS doesn't really have that many birds, in which case it's a mixed bag that's mostly NUNS. Still, as Ozma said, they are meant as the opening act. If I were NUNS I'd let these hired guns go first and trip the tripwires so I wouldn't have to risk my pilots on any surprises. A bit harsh, but why should I care more about hired guns I don't know compared to my own pilots?

It's in a different weight class (much more massive than Frontier). There's no evidence it's disproportionally more powerful. And we're not sure what the Fold Reactor is supposed to mean at this point. If it's simple power generation or has something to do with navigating distortions.

I do say it's probable that the mothership had been reinforcing the groups of strikecraft that were attacking the Galaxy ships from close by, and simply folded in to counter the Frontier Fleet.

Actually I was thinking more on jumping through distortions; IIRC fold distortions were bad news for any ship. Interestingly it looks like the cannon bean was blocked by that asteroid which suggests that maybe it's not so good at going through dense stuff; for all their armor, ships are essentially hollow - in fact they need to be, otherwise you can't have people inside them.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I agree. This is a discussion thread; not an appreciation thread, so all manner of insights and criticisms are welcome. Wesley84's points have some merit, and they don't deserve to be shouted down. On the other hand, if anyone wants to refute those points he (or anyone else) brought up, then feel free to do so.

I ain't disagreeing, just pointing out to Wesley84 that all the negativity can be a bit of a downer; best is to praise the good and knock the bad, instead of just knocking the bad.

[PonSquared]

10/10

I don't often give a 10 but this episode deserved it.

Macross sasuga.

[Shouta]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

Radio chatter

Spoiler:

I'm suprised the callsign for the K-monster is Rabbit 1. What sort is it anyway? Vorpal?

I thought I heard Rabbit but you know, it could be "Rabid" That would be even better. lol

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

This ep show up a gay in BIG mech, why many gays in anime 8-}.

Fixed for truth

And did Luca name his drones out of characters from Gurren Lagann and Gundam? [Simon and Johann. Can't identify the last one].

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

Fixed for truth

And did Luca name his drones out of characters from Gurren Lagann and Gundam? [Simon and Johann. Can't identify the last one].

Pedro or Peter.

Assuming he has 8 more drones. Hopefully he named the last as Batholomew not Judas.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Pedro or Peter.

Assuming he has 8 more drones. Hopefully he named the last as Batholomew not Judas.

Giovanni, Simon and Pietro. (John, Simon and Peter).

If Luca replaces Simon and Pietro(destroyed) with Matteo and Marco (Matthew and Mark), he'll have a full set of evangelists. (Luke, John, Matthew, Mark). It may be playing off his surname Angelioni.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

It's possible that SMS is using past data collection to improve their ECCM to counteract the jamming; Luca did say that the fold induction transmission system should keep the Vajra from jamming them. Assuming that Ozma's missiles are using SARH or command guidance, with a telemetry link to his unit, that would explain why they could lock on. That might be what his extra radome is for: missile control, perhaps. (although I'm not a big fan of this theory.)

Spoiler:

Ep3 with Skull squad intercepting the vajra shows some truth to the missile control theory. No one could lock onto the bugs with missiles, so Mikhail switched to manual and sniped it like a happy camper. KK went typical zent style in ep5, close to minimum distance and unload death- doubt jamming would be effective at such close quarters. Pity the armour was so thick

The other thing is that the Vajra perhaps aren't using their ECM because it screws up with their targeting as well? Early brute force ECM did that, IIRC. The Raptor can do ECM and EW with its radar, but at the cost of losing radar fidelity and strenght (since you're using it as an EW kit, not a radar. Not to mention the loss of stealth).

From what is seen of the Vajra thus far, they either hit the opposition with their cannons, overkill with that BFG or close in and impale the pilot cockpit. Missiles are rarely used. They're certainly fast enough to close in for melee and being brainless bugs have no inhibitions to do so [then again, so are zents ]. I suspect the constant jamming mean that guided ordnance are for opponents who are too fast for their beam weapon, better armoured against cannon fire and yet not close enough to melee. Something like a QR armour or the VF-25.

Then it goes into a war of attrition with whoever having greater stamina and durability coming ahead. SMS should start thinking about arming a QR with that power blade. Nothing more cool than having a 50ft tall woman sticking a big knife into the bugs

Actually I was thinking more on jumping through distortions; IIRC fold distortions were bad news for any ship. Interestingly it looks like the cannon bean was blocked by that asteroid which suggests that maybe it's not so good at going through dense stuff; for all their armor, ships are essentially hollow - in fact they need to be, otherwise you can't have people inside them.

Looking at how beam death was avoided, the Macross Quarter deliberately took that path just in case their barrier system failed to take the hit [can see the field glowing afterwards]. Here I'm wondering why force field technology isn't universal to all NUNS ships, it as nearly 50 years to develop the tech and make it available to their fleets. Will save a lot of people from violent wave motion cannon death.

Finally saw why Alto reverted to gerwalk mode in the fight

Spoiler:

Lost external sensors when he had his batroid head shot off The noob can't keep his VF in 1 piece

[SymphonicRain]

Looking at how beam death was avoided, the Macross Quarter deliberately took that path just in case their barrier system failed to take the hit [can see the field glowing afterwards]. Here I'm wondering why force field technology isn't universal to all NUNS ships, it as nearly 50 years to develop the tech and make it available to their fleets. Will save a lot of people from violent wave motion cannon death.

I think a direct hit from the beam will not be able to save Macross, barrier or not.

Hence the Macross took the nearest cover, which was the astroid, while still in the middle of transformation. The astroid and being a smaller sized Macross (1/4 of the original, smaller target) was the saving grace from being hit at all. The deployment of the barrier was merely to ensure the resulting blasts of the astroid that created flying rock pellets will not damage Macross's hull.

So in short I'm certain they managed to create advancement of the barrier system from a pin-point one, into a full body covered kind after 50 years of technological progress as it demonstrated in this episode. Though whether such system is being outfitted into other ships aside from Macross class ships is yet to be seen.