AnoHana - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. I hate it when a solution is crystal clear to the viewers but the characters in the show just don't get it. It means that the characters are dumbened down for the sake of the plot. This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.
For comparison, one major criticism to MadoMagi was that the girls never asked Kyubei if it was possible to simply wish away all of the witches. Without spoilering the answer, the question should have been asked.

The reasons presented in this thread as to why Menma didn't reveal herself before seem unconvincing to me.
1. If I could reluctantly accept that Menma is so naive that she didn't even think of showing herself to the others, I have difficulty reconciling this fact with the ending of episode 5, when Menma was clearly frustrated that she couldn't appear before Poppo.
2. Even if Jintan initially thought that she was a figment of his imagination, the muffins already prooven that this isn't the case. Unless you want to argue that Jinta made the muffins himself, but he never seemed that insane.
3. Having proof of the existence of Menma's ghost would greatly benefit their cause, since it was evident that the other SPB (maybe with the exception of Poppo) were just playing around with Jinta's "delusions". Yukiatsu vehemently protested against this very notion and Tsuruko straight out told Jinta that she didn't believe in his Menma.
There was no reason to hide her existence.

Now I'm wondering if you deliberately ignored my reasons listed above...or you simply were too lazy to read the wall-o-text.

[Proto]

Personally, if anything else, this episode and the way Menma revealed herself only reinforced my belief that Menma is a hallucination from a highly, highly dellusional Jinta. And that Jinta is a freaking unreliable protagonist POV.

Why, if not, Menma chose such an indirect way to reveal herself?

[SwiftStrike]

this ep made me hope for a happy ending, or an emotional one (probably).

[ZGMF-X10A]

Is there a reason why Menma is not showing people that she is there? e.g. pick up the cup in the secret base? Menma is only eating, making bread when no one is around of when Jintan is the only person around.

[Master Chibi]

She doesn't know why she's around to begin with. The girls is dead for fuck sakes, why are you all uppity about 'when the right time is to reveal yourself' or 'why didn't she do it sooner'? Have any of you ever died, and then suddenly come back as an apparition ten years later, only to realize you don't know why you came back, why only one person can see you, and what you should actually be doing?

I doubt it.

[Klashikari]

That's no reasoning at all: Menma wasn't really showing any gloomy behaviour whatsoever. Albeit she doesn't know the purpose of her presence right now, she definitely put that in the background and focus entierely on Jinta and their friends.
Regardless if she wanted to do that or not, she arguably didn't try to hide her presence at all (she never asked Jinta to hide her presence, and she definitely indulge herself as hugging people and do things for them).
And of course, you can't expect people to have the exact same circumstances, but that's no valid argument at all.

In fact, the way the show was faring about Menma was actually not so "obvious" that she is dead, considering her presence, behaviour and actions taken.
That's one of the few issues with the premises: even if Menma is indeed dead, her role in the series is hardly that one of the deceased.

While Jinta's reasons may be more or less explained, Menma was definitely not shocked and basically went on the flow of things, without much afterthoughts, until matters regarding her family or disparity between the group members arise.

[Master Chibi]

That's perfect reasoning, because you're not Menma, there's no guidebook on how you should be a freaking ghost. How are you going to get upset over the fact that one of the first things the ghost of a dead friend from a decade ago that they inadvertently killed wants to do is see how her friends are, or to indulge herself? Is she supposed to walk around shaking heavy chains, opening and closing doors behind people, or making their curtains wave when there's no wind? At this point it's an assumption that she needs a wish fulfilled to 'pass on', isn't it?

Seriously I can't understand why people are upset over this.

[cyth]

I didn't read the thread until now because, honestly, the episode left me cold for the most part. I blame Menma's mum for breaking down at the beginning of the episode, as I just wasn't able to take it seriously after that hilarity. The ending scene reminded me so much of Madoka's 10th episode because I knew everyone would have something to say about it. However, unlike in Madoka's case, I was expecting an overwhelmingly negative reaction rather than a positive one. Colour me surprised, guys.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. [...] This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.

This, right there. I, too, was rooting for something else other than the ghost theory, but I came to accept it and AnoHana's supernatural flavor quite early on in the series. What was once a simple plot device that would set a course for Super Peace Busters to resolve their past issues has morphed into a deus ex machina, which is something I don't like seeing in contemporary storytelling.

In fact, I think that it would be so much more rewarding if they could find another way for them to settle their differences, rather than supernatural intervention. True friendships are often born after such intense conflicts, but I guess the show isn't aiming for reconciliation, but rather the demise of this little group of old friends. Most of them realized that Super Peace Busters wasn't much of a group without Menma, so the writers thought it would be a good idea to introduce a ghost of a dead girl to act as a replacement for the real thing.

The Super Peace Busters are as dead as the dead girl, I'm afraid.

[Master Chibi]

That's the entire point though, SPB died the moment Menma died, this show is more about how they're dealing with it / are trying to than the act of bringing them all together to be a group again.

We still don't know why Menma's hovering around Jinta, or why she's around period, let alone whether the necessity of 'fulfilling her wish' will actually do anything. It adds an air of mystery to the show that works quite well imo.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by cyth

I didn't read the thread until now because, honestly, the episode left me cold for the most part. I blame Menma's mum for breaking down at the beginning of the episode, as I just wasn't able to take it seriously after that hilarity. The ending scene reminded me so much of Madoka's 10th episode because I knew everyone would have something to say about it. However, unlike in Madoka's case, I was expecting an overwhelmingly negative reaction rather than a positive one. Colour me surprised, guys.

This, right there. I, too, was rooting for something else other than the ghost theory, but I came to accept it and AnoHana's supernatural flavor quite early on in the series. What was once a simple plot device that would set a course for Super Peace Busters to resolve their past issues has morphed into a deus ex machina, which is something I don't like seeing in contemporary storytelling.

In fact, I think that it would be so much more rewarding if they could find another way for them to settle their differences, rather than supernatural intervention. True friendships are often born after such intense conflicts, but I guess the show isn't aiming for reconciliation, but rather the demise of this little group of old friends. Most of them realized that Super Peace Busters wasn't much of a group without Menma, so the writers thought it would be a good idea to introduce a ghost of a dead girl to act as a replacement for the real thing.

The Super Peace Busters are as dead as the dead girl, I'm afraid.

Honestly, high school kids aren't really equipped to deal with a mom that breaks down in front of them about a dead friend, let alone high school kids who all have regrets/guilt over said dead friend AND some who thinks the whole wish thing was a charade. After what basically constitute as a 'nuke' to said fragile group's trust, i don't see another way to re-establish said trust without Menma involved. Did the writers back themselves into a corner? Yes I think so. Would it be cool if Jinta came up with a miracle way to regain trust? Yes I think so. Was their 'out' poorly written? No, I don't think so. Menma's delayed revelation can be explained if we look back on certain events that happened before. Although I highly doubt they laid the foundations specifically leading up to the end of ep8 (If so, we should be praising such brilliant writing), but possible reasoning of Menma's delayed response is not completely out-of-character and far-fetched. Which is why I dont believe you can say it's poorly written. At the same time, it was a predictable response after what happened in the first half of ep.8, so I can't say it was brilliant writing either.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

She doesn't know why she's around to begin with. The girls is dead for fuck sakes, why are you all uppity about 'when the right time is to reveal yourself' or 'why didn't she do it sooner'? Have any of you ever died, and then suddenly come back as an apparition ten years later, only to realize you don't know why you came back, why only one person can see you, and what you should actually be doing?

I doubt it.

LOL the one thing that no one can relate to on here.

Well unless there is a ghost that is following this thread. You never know!

[foxnaught]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well unless there is a ghost that is following this thread. You never know!

Spoiler for Ep 8:

We'll know if we start getting blank posts in this thread

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Seriously I can't understand why people are upset over this.

If Menma just took a freaking glass of water and made it float mid-air in the secret base, they could have avoided a lot of conflict and worked together to find out what her wish was, instead of fighting with each other. I hate when the characters are beaten with the stupid stick for the sake of drama.

[Spoonroo]

I think many of the people complaining about the late reveal forget that Menma died when she was 10. She still acts like she's 10. Just think abut that for a moment.

Heck, I'm a teacher. You wouldn't believe all the things that it wouldn't occur to a 10 year old to do without being explicitly told by a parent or teacher. Not to mention the fact that they called her an "airhead" which implies it more.

Let's not forget the scenes of her watching her family and her mother over her shrine, and when she was in Anaru's house - those two scenes seem to explain why, with the mindset of a 10 year old airheaded girl, why she wouldn't show herself. wanting to lessen the sadness of her mother.

I don't see WHY the idea of making some glass float in the air would have occured to her to do. Most of the times that the group showed signs of not believing Jinta outright she was not there for (she tended to stay at home while jintan was out) and Jintan never told her about stuff like that, so how would she have been aware of that? Even the scene when she was trying to get Poppo to see her, he wasn't doubting her existence - none of them were outright saying it yet - and even if there were non verbal cues she's an "airhead" 10 year old, so I wouldn't expect her to notice that. Notice that immediately after she was aware (when she heard Poppo on the phone) what did she do. Immediately try to get the others to notice her, like people are saying she should've. She tried to call them (Yukiatsu and Tsuruko, which I though was a very interesting choice) on the phone, remember. It didn't work, obviously, but she the point is that tried ASAP after a reason existed. Also, hat's how she got them to join, remember, when they were kids - she called them to the clubhouse, so it makes sense that that would be what she tried first.

I like the diary too because she could actually convey a message - it's a way she can talk to them. it makes sense with why she tried to telephone. She wanted to communicate with them. Doing some lame Scooby Doo trick like floating a cup or dumping flour on her does not fit with the serious vibe of the show, and does not let her speak to the others. Even when she tried to communicate to the others, it's always by talking - that's how 10 year olds like to communicate, with words. and I'm glad they did something deep like using the diary - using that item was great. Also, since it was in her handwriting, there's no way it could've been explained as a magic trick or something Jintan set up to trick them, which is probably what Yukiatsu would've said if they had gone the Saturday Morning Cartoon route (float object, dump flour) to try to get her to prove her existence.

And most of all, SHE'S A GHOST. If people don't have a problem with that, why are they having problems with such a slight thing as "she should've made herself appear when the series started" (which in its timeline was what? a week ago?) What's going to be the next? "Why did she wait for 10 years to reappear in front of Jintan? Why not immediately after she died? why not the next day? why not 1 month? why not 1 year? whay this random day?"

I don't think that stuff matters, honestly.

I just don't see the complaining I guess. It's a ghost story. Where's the suspension of disbelief?

In other news, this show is AWESOME! and I especially love the OP and ED, songs and visuals. even the colors of the ED, the way that the girls all close their eyes before the song swells...I love how they don't let the ED's visual interrupt the story, letting it start at the point the story allows it to.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

If Menma just took a freaking glass of water and made it float mid-air in the secret base, they could have avoided a lot of conflict and worked together to find out what her wish was, instead of fighting with each other. I hate when the characters are beaten with the stupid stick for the sake of drama.

Doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick. If people always acted logically and without emotion, then there wouldn't really be any problems would there?

[farios]

I've been following this anime for this 2 weeks, and i have to say...i love this show it's full of emotional moments and didn't waste any time with some useless scenes. The characters are written nicely and actually realistic. This is exactly how Angel Beats supposed to be. Looking forward for the next episode

[Myssa Rei]

I gave this episode an 8. That's already high praise coming from me.

[Sebasu]

Did Yukiatsu made an account and voted for 1?

[miketyson]

My evaluation: I gave this episode a 10 b/c it got me excited about the series. After episode 7 I still *liked* the series but it seemed like the show was heading for a very "small" scope; after episode 7 in particular it like lots of doors had been closed, narrowing the range of possibilities for what was to come. Episode 8 moved quickly -- and believably -- and by the end it seemed top open up a lot of possibilities, an now the show seems "big" again.

My forward-looking reaction: this show has trolled us before (in a good way, like with the diary), so there's no reason to believe everyone is going to really believe in Menma's existence in the next episode; for all we know they're going to turn around and say "BS!" right as episode 9 beings. The writing is very careful to *not* have Menma reveal her existence in a truly airtight way -- there's still ways in which she could be being faked right now -- and it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those loopholes get pointed out before the end of the series.

[foxnaught]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick. If people always acted logically and without emotion, then there wouldn't really be any problems would there?

No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'