[Anime] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - General Discussion

[xPearse]

Originally Posted by Levani

The Battler who observes the world does, the one in the game-board doesn't.

They cry, they scream, they're in shock, in despair and so on.

Thanks for clearing that up. Anyhow, if the one who is observing is trying to debate how the murders were done without magic, it seems rather odd seeing how he witnesses the use of magic to kill people, yet tries to think otherwise.

[Levani]

it seems rather odd seeing how he witnesses the use of magic to kill people, yet tries to think otherwise.

Have you gotten to the Red Truth's introduction yet?

Spoiler for Spoilers for Red Truth and illusions:

What Beatrice presents to Battler in the MetaWorld is merely her tale, Battler should not take everything at face value, the real truth and the only thing Battler and the viewers can trust is the Red Truth. This is the absolute truth with no falsehoods. Battler's goal is to see through Beatrice's illusions and with the help of the Red Truth, create compelling arguments to deny the witch.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by xPearse

Oh, right. But you still didn't answer my other questions. Does he see everything that we see (like the furnitures appearing out of the floor) or only when he appears with Beatrice?

The Battler in the purgatory sees everything we see, magic included. For him it's as if he's watching a movie (in the Vn they even joke about it telling him to keep far form the screen). The Battler who is instead on Rokkenjima sees only what he can physically see. In short, if he's in a room, he can't see what's happening in the other.

Originally Posted by xPearse

Could you be more specific? What exactly are their reactions like in the VN? Though I guess I'll see the differences myself when I get around to the VN.

To give you an idea of how different in terms of impression and amount of material the VN and the anime are I'm going to post some edited bits of my old ramblings about Ep 1 (they were heavy with spoilers so I've removed them).

The first bit is about the first scene but from comparing it with the one in the anime you can already see how a lot character description was cut and trust me, this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Spoiler for Ep 1 VN and Manga Intro:

In the VN we start with Kinzo lying in his bed while being visited by his doctor, Nanjo, who’s also introduced as his friend. Genji is also around. This scene is heavily shortened in the anime so that while the VN gives the impression of a sick Kinzo, representing him on his bed being visited, anime and manga prefer to paint him as a Kinzo who’s sitting straight on his seat like a king on his throne while he hear Nanjo declaring he has three months of life.

The VN also allows us to see how Kinzo deems Nanjo and Genji his friends and he’s sort of warm with them, which underlines a sharp contrast with how he acts with everyone else, and his drinking habit too seems to have a shade of bitterness that’s absent in the anime.

Nanjo’s character comes out a little better as he proves he can use gentle metaphors to tell Kinzo the truth about his health but also make remarks like ‘Well now... I wonder how short I must make it (the time you’ve left) for you to refrain from drinking’.

We also have a first glimpse of how Kinzo dislikes his family. First thing he says about them is they’re vultures who plan to devour and scatter his corpse.

It’s interesting that Nanjo tries to push Kinzo to write a will in which he wouldn’t simply split the inheritance but write down ‘his intentions, his regrets, his unfinished matters, what he wanted to be passed down, what he wanted to convey’.

Kinzo’s reaction though, isn’t the best one. He doesn’t want to leave nothing behind to his foolish children, not even his corpse. He has nothing to tell and he wants everything to be gone with him. He’s so drastic you can really think he’s planning to blast himself away, and with himself the whole island.

The whole topic of leaving a will behind is also cut by anime who moves straight to Kinzo raving for Beatrice to show him her smile again.

And now there's the bit about the reaction to the first murder. This is basically a comment to how the scene was presented in the anime with mentions (well, more likely complains) to how differently things went in the VN. Due to various cutting (basically I've completely removed the first part who devoted to how the scene was in the VN because it was hugely spoilerish about the solution) is less... neat in the comparisons than the previous bit but you should get the idea of the differences anyway.

Spoiler for Ep 1 reaction to the first murder:

Genji gets in, attracting everyone’s attention (differently to how in the VN he was noticed only by mere coincidence) and drags Nanjo away. The cousins don’t look worried at all and follows them on Battler’s prompting because ‘it seems interesting’.

Evidently the cousins were slow in following the old Genji and Nanjo because even if they left just after them, they reach the place much later and, as soon as she hears them, Natsuhi tries to stop them and tells them to go back into the house. Jessica, for some strange reason, decides to go check what’s in the storehouse anyway and runs in it. Natsuhi tries to stop her but fails and Jessica, instead than Battler, has a first look at what’s inside and screams. At this Battler and George also go give a look, nobody attempting to stop them. Really, compared to the VN in which Natsuhi tried to stop them from seeing but they saw regardless as she couldn’t cover the whole opening and then Jessica and George were stopped and only Battler ran inside DUE TO WHAT HE SAW, the scene in the anime makes basically no sense. Natsuhi’s attempt to stop Jessica is pitiful and Jessica runs in for no good reason at all apart from the fact she needed to scream so the others would come see what she saw as well. Not mentioning in the anime Eva didn’t even attempt to stop George which she did in the VN. George and Battler freeze while staring at the gruesome scene in front of them and Eva screams at George to take the kids away from there… because she’s more worried about the kids than about George, evidently. Yeah, really.

Now that Jessica is fighting like hell to get in the storehouse Natsuhi is successfully holding her back and telling her not to look, a thing she failed to do when she wasn’t fighting so hard. Really, they messed up this scene in a pretty horrible way. Nanjo informs us about the rigor mortis and of how the disfigurement took place after death without doubting his own ability to establish this. Hideyoshi starts ranting about how this is the work of a demon and only now Battler starts screaming claiming it’s horrible because previously he was stilled. Shock?

No, more likely they followed the dialogues of the VN but forgetting Battler had started screaming previously and so had him starting to scream only when the narrative returned its attention on him. George doesn’t try to comfort him but worries if Sha-… hem, if only 5 people are lying there. Hideyoshi informs him they’re 6 and we’re shown a female arm whose hand is wearing George’s ring.

Ep 3 starts with Hideyoshi asking George if yesterday was the last time he saw Shannon and how her face looked. He claims she was smiling beautifully when the flashback doesn’t even show her smiling. Not that she smiled in another point of the scene. Really guys, did you read the plot before drawing the anime?

Anyway Hideyoshi went on in how Shannon wouldn’t want George to see her like that same as he did in the VN. Problem is here George never said he wanted to look at her so I guess it’s another thing we’ve to assume. I wonder if when they sold the dvd in Japan they also handed a copy of the VN and wrote on the dvd “SUMMARY of the VN. Read the VN to get how things worked.”

Anyway George cries and then asks about the ring… which is unnecessary from a viewer point of view as we already knew from the previous episode she was wearing it. The scene drags on. Eva gets angry at the idea George might have given the ring at Shannon and Hideyoshi stops her and makes the rant as in the VN and we’ve Battler’s face being shown at this (and not George’s) and Battler looks touched by Hideyoshi’s words. As Hideyoshi finishes his speech George cries some more. All in all Battler, contrary to the VN, hasn’t cried much for his parents. He only had a moment of shock at the INTERE scene of the murder, then he seems to suffer for Shannon’s death and George drama and… who cares about his parents? Note he also has no tears on his face.

Now… the fact that his reaction at his parents’ death was completely missing made it weird. Didn’t he care for them at all? Why to cut his reaction to their death? Battler came out as cold toward his relatives, shocked only by the murders and not by his loss and that’s not him.

I hope it helps to get a general idea even if I admit those bits weren't target made for you but part of a long series of ramblings about the VN, the anime and the manga, and also had a lot of spoilers so now here they might feel weird (as well as jumpy due to how I cut the spoilers). Also by the sarcasm in some parts you should get how in the VN things were presented better but the anime just made a mess of it even if I didn't reference the differences.

[xPearse]

Hmm, I see. Thanks, guys. I'll probably answer most of my questions when I get around to the VN. Though, is the average length really 12+ hours? I'm curious. Also, does the voices extend reading length by far since you have to listen to them talking?

Originally Posted by Levani

Have you gotten to the Red Truth's introduction yet?

Spoiler for Spoilers for Red Truth and illusions:

What Beatrice presents to Battler in the MetaWorld is merely her tale, Battler should not take everything at face value, the real truth and the only thing Battler and the viewers can trust is the Red Truth. This is the absolute truth with no falsehoods. Battler's goal is to see through Beatrice's illusions and with the help of the Red Truth, create compelling arguments to deny the witch.

Yeah, though they didn't quite put it like that in the anime. They only mentioned that what she says in red is the truth if I recall correctly. Also, just because she says its the truth, does that mean he actually has to take her word for it? Couldn't she be lying?

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by xPearse

Yeah, though they didn't quite put it like that in the anime. They only mentioned that what she says in red is the truth if I recall correctly. Also, just because she says its the truth, does that mean he actually has to take her word for it? Couldn't she be lying?

(It kind of made sense to me that they chose to portray it as time freezing, since in the game time would freeze and turn greyscale, and then Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice would appear. However, while this interpretation makes sense to me, it's boring to look at, and doesn't quite mend well with the Tea Room that they are portrayed as playing in. The manga was the first to portray it as them sitting in the Tea Room and watching the events, and that is an interpretation that makes far more sense, and generally looks much more interesting.)

What she says is the truth. If she were lying, there'd be no point in having a game to begin with- Magic requires risk to work, as it's put.

However, if I recall correctly,

Spoiler for How to interpret Red Truth:

the line she explains it with is this: "Everything I speak in Red is the truth! There's absolutely no need to doubt it!" ...the first sentence is in red, but the second is not...

...make of that what you will. The anime includes this line, except none of it is in red.

Funnily enough, the American release of the series comes with a hardback book that answers all the questions you're asking. They couldn't find it in themselves to release something this incoherent without any reference material.

[Levani]

Yeah, though they didn't quite put it like that in the anime. They only mentioned that what she says in red is the truth if I recall correctly. Also, just because she says its the truth, does that mean he actually has to take her word for it? Couldn't she be lying?

No, you can't doubt that the Red Truth. It's the absolute, objective form of truth.

However you can play with words and trick someone with it but it doesn't change the fact that what was said is the truth.

Reason why Beatrice can't say "Witches are real" in the Red is because that would cause a stalemate. It won't be much of a game like that.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by xPearse

Though, is the average length really 12+ hours? I'm curious. Also, does the voices extend reading length by far since you have to listen to them talking?

The voice track isn't slowing it down that much, though in the end it depends on your reading speed. For me, I prefer to read fast so voice-tracks generally annoy me more than they help me in VNs.
Also, I find the voice-direction of Chiru kind of lacking in certain areas. EP5 and 6 are awesome, but I kind of got the feeling that especially in EP8 even the voice actors didn't really know what to do with the script and kind of ended up half-assing it in some crucial scenes.

Yeah, though they didn't quite put it like that in the anime. They only mentioned that what she says in red is the truth if I recall correctly. Also, just because she says its the truth, does that mean he actually has to take her word for it? Couldn't she be lying?

To add to what other people said: Really consider that Beato and Battler are playing a game against each other. The Red Truth is something like a part of the game's rule-set. Breaking the rules would break the game.
An analogy that is close would be chess. Of course you can just take your queen on your first move and push the opponents king off the board...but that would neither be fair nor fun. There are just simple elements in a game that have to be taken for granted.

Still, that doesn't mean that people cannot manage to trick you within the rules.
Another analogy? In a game of Old Maid, your opponent might stick out a card to make you think it's the card he wants you to choose while it is actually the card right beside it.

[xPearse]

I understand a bit better now. Anyhow, magic comes from the power of belief? Is Beatrice Freddy Krueger? Because that would make a lot of sense, or not. I've read stuff like that in other things before, but I can't exactly put my finger on them. Either or, I think it's worthy to note that the power is belief thing was also in Higurashi (sorta) since Hanyu's power comes from it. Also, I've been enjoying the third arc way more than the first two. I especially like Ronove and Beatrice Eva, they're fun and interesting to watch. Furthermore, the voice acting (music, too) is actually surprisingly very well done. Beatrice's cackles always crack me up. What did you guys think of the voice acting? I'm sure you can appreciate that much, and more so since they continue into the VN.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The voice track isn't slowing it down that much, though in the end it depends on your reading speed. For me, I prefer to read fast so voice-tracks generally annoy me more than they help me in VNs.
Also, I find the voice-direction of Chiru kind of lacking in certain areas. EP5 and 6 are awesome, but I kind of got the feeling that especially in EP8 even the voice actors didn't really know what to do with the script and kind of ended up half-assing it in some crucial scenes.

I'm not a big fan of voiced VN's either for the same reasons. It mostly a bother and makes you want to just click since you've already read what they are currently saying. That, and Japanese VN voice acting at times can sound very flat and boring, as if they aren't even interested.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by xPearse

I understand a bit better now. Anyhow, magic comes from the power of belief? Is Beatrice Freddy Krueger? Because that would make a lot of sense, or not. I've read stuff like that in other things before, but I can't exactly put my finger on them. Either or, I think it's worthy to note that the power is belief thing was also in Higurashi (sorta) since Hanyu's power comes from it. Also, I've been enjoying the third arc way more than the first two. I especially like Ronove and Beatrice Eva, they're fun and interesting to watch. Furthermore, the voice acting (music, too) is actually surprisingly very well done. Beatrice's cackles always crack me up. What did you guys think of the voice acting? I'm sure you can appreciate that much, and more so since they continue into the VN.

The voice acting is absolutely phenomenal. Despite the fact that it's impossible to solve the mystery by watching the anime alone, there's no doubt in my mind that the Voice Actors knew everything they needed too. It's especially noticeable in the first and final few episodes.

I'm not a big fan of voiced VN's either for the same reasons. It mostly a bother and makes you want to just click since you've already read what they are currently saying. That, and Japanese VN voice acting at times can sound very flat and boring, as if they aren't even interested.

That's not a problem in Umineko- I found the voice acting just as good as the TV series, although, like Haguruma said, Chiru kind of loses it's way. I found a lot of the choices for character's voices very questionable, even with characters like Erika and Dlanor, who are introduced early in Chiru, and almost universally agreed to be good, just sounded odd to me. Not to mention, the actors in Episode 8 sound just as confused as the narrative.

[Levani]

I dedicated my life just to make that damn voice patch, of course I believe that they're amazing Can't read Umineko without it.

[xPearse]

I had a feeling everyone liked the voices, so at least DEEN or whoever they source their voice talent from got that right. Nee hee hee. Anyhow, just finished watching the third arc in its entirety, and it was actually pretty darn good. Very entertaining. What did you guys think of the third arc in anime form? Also, Beatrice was playing Battler a fool from the very start. Shock! Now I know why there's an internet analogy for Umineko. That facts actually kinda funny.

Originally Posted by Levani

I dedicated my life just to make that damn voice patch, of course I believe that they're amazing Can't read Umineko without it.

And nobody will truly understand nor appreciate just how much effort or how long it took to achieve that for eight 12 hour + games except yourself. Bravo, Levani, bravo.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by xPearse

I had a feeling everyone liked the voices, so at least DEEN or whoever they source their voice talent from got that right. Nee hee hee. Anyhow, just finished watching the third arc in its entirety, and it was actually pretty darn good. Very entertaining. What did you guys think of the third arc in anime form? Also, Beatrice was playing Battler a fool from the very start. Shock! Now I know why there's an internet analogy for Umineko. That facts actually kinda funny.

It's probably the most decent of all the arcs, but it's still irksome for VN fans. Eva's struggle isn't as painful as it was in the VN, Beatrice's succession ceremony is underwhelming, the torture Rosa and Maria are put through is almost completely omitted, the Chiester Corps aren't as pants-shittingly terrifying, the battle against Evatrice is way less brutal, and Beatrice's trick ends way earlier. The anime also begins to reveal it's worst side- The side that actually changes the tone of the original work: The scene where Beatrice guards the door isn't meant to be scary at all, but rather heartbreaking and inspiring (I actually cried during it, even though I already caught onto Beato's farce, ngl). And worst of all, Lambdadelta's personality is completely and utterly changed. The Tea Party was supposed to reveal that Lambdadelta was actually a cruelly psychotic puppetmaster, who verbally and physically bullies Beatrice into fighting Battler to further her own agenda. And in the anime, it's changed so that she's mildly annoyed that the team she's rooting for isn't doing so hot. (Sorry if I posted a lot of links, but the difference in DEEN and the VN's musical decisions pretty much sum it up.)

However, the interplay between the characters is fun, anime!Battler isn't so obnoxiously stupid, Beatrice's voice actress is brilliant as usual, Virgillia looks stunning in the anime, the fight scene between her and Beato is nice to look at, and some of the direction is really stunning. Ange's introduction is also very well handled, and it's a real shame that her backstory wasn't adapted as ominously melancholic as it was portrayed in this episode.

[Levani]

I also really like anime's soundtrack, the annoying thing is that DEEN has them so low that it's hard to catch them.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Levani

I also really like anime's soundtrack, the annoying thing is that DEEN has them so low that it's hard to catch them.

It's not so much the OST that bothers me, the OST is fantastic, it's just the scenes that they use the music in don't work a lot of the time. ESPECIALLY during the final arc. It was horribly infuriating.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

It's not so much the OST that bothers me, the OST is fantastic, it's just the scenes that they use the music in don't work a lot of the time. ESPECIALLY during the final arc. It was horribly infuriating.

Agreed, bad directing but I love the OST nevertheless. Some remixes are pretty great too.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by xPearse

What did you guys think of the third arc in anime form?

I'd also say that it was probably the strongest of the four arcs, but it also looses quality as the episodes go on. They probably shouldn't have blown the budget on the Virgillia Beato battle.

Especially the final stand against Eva-Beatrice looses a lot of thunder, which is sad because it was grinding fans to dust.
It doesn't really come across as harmful, when in the VN and the manga Battler is depicted to be actually spun into a spiders web of Red Truth.

Arc 4 is probably the most disappointing next to arc 1, because it leaves out central and atmospheric scenes in favor of comic relief

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by Levani

I also really like anime's soundtrack, the annoying thing is that DEEN has them so low that it's hard to catch them.

Suspicion.ogg
No, really, I thought the anime had some amazing track. Dreamend Discharger and Answer and .. gah I can't remember the name (Plays when

Spoiler for Episode 2:

jessica and Kanon dies

are superior to the original imo.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Arc 4 is probably the most disappointing next to arc 1, because it leaves out central and atmospheric scenes in favor of comic relief

And on top of that, they didn't use the Beatrice-comforts-Battler scene nor goat-kun. Such a shame.

[Levani]

And on top of that, they didn't use the Beatrice-comforts-Battler scene nor goat-kun. Such a shame.

Or the hug in the last scene.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Levani

Or the hug in the last scene.

Which is quite important!
Not to speak of them omitting Battler's journey around the island for a whole day after he met Beatrice at the mansion. Not only robs it EP4 of any solvability, it also robs the story of the important aspect that Battler was able to roam around freely for 24 hours without even meeting any other living person...
It's equally disappointing as them leaving the epilogue out of Tatarigoroshi in Higurashi...what is it with DEEN and epilogues?!

[Levani]

Not to speak of them omitting Battler's journey around the island for a whole day after he met Beatrice at the mansion.

Can't believe they cut that out when this is supposed to be a "mystery anime".

That's why we need a remake guys, from Ufotable