Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[snowdevil_crow]

Did he...? Marianne seemed to genuinely care for him, Charles didn't really seem that way to me.

One thing I didn't get --- did they shoot Nunnally's legs to make her injured, too? Because that's just kind of sick...

[azul120]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

And Charles did that to protect his son from V.V.'s interest. Doesn't anyone believe that Charles might have geassed Lelouch with those memories before he had sent him and Nunnally to Japan? As soon as Marianne appeared, Charles became the loving father that Lelouch once knew before her death. The Emperor did mention to Lelouch that he was the one who geassed Nunnally into thinking that she was blind to prevent her from knowing the truth. Why couldn't he had done that with Lelouch as well?

I guess there wouldn't be a Lelouch of the Rebellion to begin with.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Did he...? Marianne seemed to genuinely care for him, Charles didn't really seem that way to me.

One thing I didn't get --- did they shoot Nunnally's legs to make her injured, too? Because that's just kind of sick...

After V.V. had killed Marianne, he ordered one of his followers to dragged Nunnally from her room and have her mother's body on top of her to make it seemed like she was protecting her daughter. From there, V.V. ordered his men to fire(from the outside of the Palace) at the stained glass windows as the morning sun came forth. Thus, Nunnally's legs were injured. Although, it was intended for Nunnally to die as well because V.V. hated Marianne's children. He couldn't find Lelouch in time to carry out his planned massacre on the children as well.

V.V. killed Marianne because he was jealous that she had made Charles happy to the point that the Emperor had strated to change. He might have been a better person were it not of V.V.'s savage act. Some brother that V.V. turned out to be because his actions had led to his undoing.

[snowdevil_crow]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

After V.V. had killed Marianne, he ordered one of his followers to dragged Nunnally from her room and have her mother's body on top of her to make it seemed like she was protecting her daughter. From there, V.V. ordered his men to fire(from the outside of the Palace) at the stained glass windows as the morning sun came forth. Thus, Nunnally's legs were injured. Although, it was intended for Nunnally to die as well because V.V. hated Marianne's children. He couldn't find Lelouch in time to carry out his planned massacre on the children as well.

Really? o_o Whoa, I don't remember hearing THAT. Mind you, I was going rather WTF over that episode, so probably a majority of the explanations went over my head.

[azul120]

I won't disagree that V. V. was the malevolent one of the two, so much so that he actually broke his pledge to Charles not to lie in addition to other schemes, but I think Charles would have still went along with his plan of Instrumentality.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

After V.V. had killed Marianne, he ordered one of his followers to dragged Nunnally from her room and have her mother's body on top of her to make it seemed like she was protecting her daughter. From there, V.V. ordered his men to fire(from the outside of the Palace) at the stained glass windows as the morning sun came forth. Thus, Nunnally's legs were injured. Although, it was intended for Nunnally to die as well because V.V. hated Marianne's children. He couldn't find Lelouch in time to carry out his planned massacre on the children as well.

V.V. killed Marianne because he was jealous that she had made Charles happy to the point that the Emperor had strated to change. He might have been a better person were it not of V.V.'s savage act. Some brother that V.V. turned out to be because his actions had led to his undoing.

I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that. What I remember was that V.V. simply stated "It's over, begin covering up the incident. We'll have Nunally be the witness." to someone on a phone.

He only made mention of using Nunally and nothing about Lelouch. If he had wanted Nunally dead, then he wouldn't have had a witness at all. My assumption was that it played out as Snow said: they plopped her under Marianne and shot her legs.

This still leaves the question of how V.V. made Nunally the witness. Charles altered her memories of the incident for her own protection, but V.V. would have had to do the same to make her his 'witness,' and he couldn't ask Charles to do that. It can be assumed that he may have used another Geass user with similar abilities to Charles, but it should have at least been spelled out for us, since V.V. also wasn't made the head of the Directorate until C.C. left.

And to Snow; I am told of side materials that portray the 'real' Marianne as a woman who only superficially cared for Lelouch and Nunally, but I have not seen any myself (I know the novels make her psychotic, but they can't be called canon). I think the revelations during Ragnarok were supposed to tell us that Charles did actually care for Lelouch and Nunally but it was only about as much as Marianne, whose love turned out to be much less than what Lelouch believed. In fact it might be possible that Charles ultimately cared more for his children than Marianne did.

If Charles really did care for Lelouch then he could have used his Geass on him right there in the throne room just after the outburst to give Lelouch a memory where Charles reveals everything, or enough to not leave Lelouch an infuriated and destroyed shell of a human being.

Something like making the world around them fade away and Charles leaves his throne to approach Lelouch, hold him and say he knows/suspects who did it, but that Lelouch and Nunally are in danger, so he is pretending to not care and send them off to throw off suspicion and protect them.

Then he could plan for Lelouch to return after Japan was taken, but with V.V.'s suspicions of Charles loving him destroyed, or tell him to just stay hidden in Japan forever with Nunally.

Or...you know...he could send a letter to Lelouch just before they are shipped off.

Honestly I'm skeptical that the whole "Your parents love you, just not that much" thing was supposed to be there in the original, as it just makes Charles and Marianne too damn incompetent.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

First, they did side with Schneizel, taking orders directly from him in a war; that they did it to oppose Lelouch doesn't change that. Second, the argument that they should support Schneizel (instead of sitting on the sidelines, or opposing them both) because Lelouch was worse implies the embrace of the arguments that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and 'support the lesser of two evils'; in that case, they shouldn't have had a problem with what Lelouch did (he was being evil to defeat what both thought was a greater evil). Third, Schneizel was the prime instigator of the use of FREIJA on Tokyo, which should have made working with him anathema to the Black Knights. It's understandable if they weren't aware of Schneizel's role in the use of the weapon when they first made a deal with him, but by the time Lelouch and Schneizel were ready for war, they should have figured it out.

your basic argment is flawed by saying they sided with Schneizel over lelouch
they didnt choose to support Schneizel over lelouch, nor was there ever a possibility of them joining lelouch against Schneizel (DURING THE FINAL ARC)
lelouch attacked them took their leaders hostage and conquered their country
they were going to war with lelouch NO MATTER WHAT
if Schneizel hadnt blown up pendragon they wouldnt have even BOTHERED to contact him and join forces aginst lelouch
but they, the black knights, were going to fight lelouch regardless
lelouch was trying to conquer the world (his words)
and since he already controls britannia which is HALF the world - guess who that other half is

it wasnt the case of the lesser evil (enemy of my enemy is more like it)
and there was no way for them to agree with what lelouch was doing becouse he was doing it TO THEM
they were at war with lelouch themselves (tecniclly they were always at war with him, since he is britannia)
sitting on the sidelines was NOT POSSIBLE when you are one of the only two sides of the conflict
lelouch wasnt being evil to defeat a greater evil in their eyes
he was being evil BECOUSE HE WAS EVIL and the ones he was trying to defeat were THEY THEMSELVES (he made it a point to have them think this)
it wasnt lelouch Vs Schneizel with the OOBK on the fence
it was lelouch Vs the OOBK and the UFN
Schneizel was the one hiding in cambodia and basiclly sitting on the fence
he wasnt a side to this conflict, and he wasnt the one who had come under attack from lelouch
the black knights were.

hence your argument is flawed
if you dont like the fact that they allied with Schneizel against an enemy who attacked them first and whom they were going to fight ANYWAY thats your choice
but you completely misunderstand the situation if you think that the two sides in this conflict are either lelouch or Schneizel
the two sides consist of lelouch and britannia on one side and the OOBK and the UFN on the other
the OOBK only contact Schneizel becouse the man demonstates (very VERY clearly) that he ALSO doesnt accept lelouch
but he isnt an actual independednt side to this conflict (unless the damocles is renamed the democratic republic of Schneizel)

[Levy]

@Bionicman: Pretty much, all that Blade said with the little add that Xing-ke, head of the BK after Zero is gone - before the beginning of battle in ep.23 saids: "I do not want to acknowledge Schneizel and his FREJA but we need his help as well to eliminate Lelouch."

In the same episode, it's shown how the UNF is fighting Lelouch's forces all over the world, so what blade saids it's right, it's th UNF VS Britannia, Schneizel takes part on the battle, but the BK is not subordinated to him in any way. It's a false impresion you get, but they were not in contact in the one month skip, and all of Schneizel's forces it's the Damocles and the Mordred (his own words).
Xing-ke just allowed him to direct the attack toward Lelouch to prevent him from firing the FREJA on the Avalon were the UNF representative are held hostages (and Ohgi seems not pleased with this, btw... )

[azul120]

What part does Ohgi not seem pleased with?

[Levy]

That Xingke left the command of the army to Schneizel. He didn't say anything, but he turns to Xingke with a worried/not pleased look.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that. What I remember was that V.V. simply stated "It's over, begin covering up the incident. We'll have Nunally be the witness." to someone on a phone.

He only made mention of using Nunally and nothing about Lelouch. If he had wanted Nunally dead, then he wouldn't have had a witness at all. My assumption was that it played out as Snow said: they plopped her under Marianne and shot her legs.

This still leaves the question of how V.V. made Nunally the witness. Charles altered her memories of the incident for her own protection, but V.V. would have had to do the same to make her his 'witness,' and he couldn't ask Charles to do that. It can be assumed that he may have used another Geass user with similar abilities to Charles, but it should have at least been spelled out for us, since V.V. also wasn't made the head of the Directorate until C.C. left.

And to Snow; I am told of side materials that portray the 'real' Marianne as a woman who only superficially cared for Lelouch and Nunally, but I have not seen any myself (I know the novels make her psychotic, but they can't be called canon). I think the revelations during Ragnarok were supposed to tell us that Charles did actually care for Lelouch and Nunally but it was only about as much as Marianne, whose love turned out to be much less than what Lelouch believed. In fact it might be possible that Charles ultimately cared more for his children than Marianne did.

If Charles really did care for Lelouch then he could have used his Geass on him right there in the throne room just after the outburst to give Lelouch a memory where Charles reveals everything, or enough to not leave Lelouch an infuriated and destroyed shell of a human being.

Something like making the world around them fade away and Charles leaves his throne to approach Lelouch, hold him and say he knows/suspects who did it, but that Lelouch and Nunally are in danger, so he is pretending to not care and send them off to throw off suspicion and protect them.

Then he could plan for Lelouch to return after Japan was taken, but with V.V.'s suspicions of Charles loving him destroyed, or tell him to just stay hidden in Japan forever with Nunally.

Or...you know...he could send a letter to Lelouch just before they are shipped off.

Honestly I'm skeptical that the whole "Your parents love you, just not that much" thing was supposed to be there in the original, as it just makes Charles and Marianne too damn incompetent.

I could see Marianne being ruthless as a warrior who wanted power as much as Charles. However, her tone might have changed once she became Charles' wife and mother to Lelouch and Nunnally. Even if her intentions were superficial, I don't think that Marianne's cared less about her own children as much as Charles had before her death.

But V.V. didn't see Anya as the real witness to Marianne's death. He might have wanted to kill Lelouch as well because he saw him as a threat as well. Marianne might have had the ability to communicate with Charles as well after her death.

[Betteroffer]

Given that turning over Lelouch for Japan was the core BK screwing over the UFN to get what they wanted, could it be argued that at that moment the core BK just commited the same crime as Lelouch did when he abandoned the Black Rebellion 47 times at once, since that was how many countries were said to have been part of the UFN at the time?

Beyond that, the announcement of Zero's 'death' to the public was also pretty bogus logic to me. Just have one of their thinner members claim to be Zero and denounce anyone else as a Britannian imposter. The whole strategic point of 'Zero' was ideally that whenever he died, a new Zero would be selected and the enemy would never be the wiser. The yelling on Horai proved that the announcement was a huge demoralizer for the people, so when, not if, when Britannia decided to take Japan back, the UFN would be facing the world's greatest army plus FLEIJA, with them left without Zero, his Geass, his insight into key members of their military and people in general, and a signifigantly demoralized army.

Beyond that, they would have lost the momentum of their battle plan to free Japan before Britannia could push too deeply into their territory from the rear, and if the other Areas could even be counted on to rebel anymore, which was a key part of the necessary battle plan to split Britannia's military focus into too many direction.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Given that turning on Lelouch for Japan was the core BK screwing over the UFN to get what they wanted, could it be argued that at that moment the core BK just commited the same crime as Lelouch did when he abandoned the Black Rebellion47 times at once, since that was how many countries were said to have been part of the UFN at the time?

Not sure if I'd apply the same sense of scale there, but they were just as bad there, yes. I always felt angry on Xing-ke's behalf there, given that he didn't give the say in the matter that he deserved.

[Levy]

I fail to get this. Lelouch appeared to them as someone dangerous and an *impostor* and *traitor* of the UNF , too, and they acted accordingly.

When Lelouch left during the Black Rebellion, he did it just because he was scared for Nunnaly's fate.

Where is the parallelism between the two?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Levy

I fail to get this. Lelouch appeared to them as someone dangerous and an *impostor* and *traitor* of the UNF , too, and they acted accordingly.

When Lelouch left during the Black Rebellion, he did it just because he was scared for Nunnaly's fate.

Where is the parallelism between the two?

When Lelouch left the Black Rebellion for Nunally, he was basically saying "Screw all your dreams, trust, and hard work, what I want is more important." Lelouch abandoned everyone looking up to him for his own personal intrests. The BK betrayal was them doing the same. Sure they save one country, but they've irreprably damaged the ability of the entire UFN to fight. And knowing how expansionist Britannia is, did they honestly expect them not to eventually continue the war? And to eventually come back to Japan again, even if they freed it?

[bladeofdarkness]

but they only turned on him after discovering that the man was a monster (in their eyes)
lelouch ditched them to go after his own sister
they ditched him becouse they came to believe that he had been using them for HIS goals and not for theirs
getting rid of someone who they believe is an actual THREAT to them isnt the same thing
the "japan for lelouch" was a by product (which no one liked, myself included), its not like if shnizel had refused they would have kept lelouch on as zero

[Betteroffer]

@Blade:
Ahhhh, okay that makes sense.

Still with all their admitted focus on Japan to the level that Lelouch seemed to centralize on Nunally, I don't think I'd be surprised if they would have left the UFN afterwards.

In any case many of their follow up actions were pretty stupid. Announcing Zero's death, rather than choosing a replacement from one of them who knew the situation was still screwing the UFN over for a foolish reason.

Also I replied to your comments on my additions to the Japanese terrorists' 'sins' and as wondering about your thoughts on them.

[bladeofdarkness]

i am not questioning that the way they handled the betrayal part was both stupid and ass-hole-ish
my biggest gripes about it is selling him out, and using kallen as bait (not giving him a change to speak is a RESULT of selling him out)
but they would have turned on him based soley on the evidence even if shnizel hadnt promised them jack

as for choosing a replacement zero
would it matter so much when you remember that the guy who is their ENEMY knows that its bullshit
shnizel could expose the truth fairly quickly (he does have a video of lelouch as zero admiting the "truth" of having used them after all)
better to have people believe that he died as a hero then risk shnizel blowing the lid on the whole thing if he feels like it

can you quote the changes you made about the "sins" part please

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

The BK betrayal was them doing the same. Sure they save one country, but they've irreprably damaged the ability of the entire UFN to fight.

It won't be that extreme. The UNF is a big army able to stand his ground also without Lelouch, they would have been able to protect their nations.

Also, the development of FREJA gave Britannia a military advantage that basically shot dead Lelouch's plan of all Areas uprising against Britannia on Area 11's example, even without he mutiny.

Anyway, as blade pointed out, getting Japan back from Schneizel in change of Lelouch was not the main reason why they rebelled against Zero.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Announcing Zero's death, rather than choosing a replacement from one of them who knew the situation was still screwing the UFN over for a foolish reason.

now this would have been a very good plan... *off plotting such an AU!*

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i am not questioning that the way they handled the betrayal part was both stupid and ass-hole-ish
my biggest gripes about it is selling him out, and using kallen as bait (not giving him a change to speak is a RESULT of selling him out)
but they would have turned on him based soley on the evidence even if shnizel hadnt promised them jack

as for choosing a replacement zero
would it matter so much when you remember that the guy who is their ENEMY knows that its bullshit
shnizel could expose the truth fairly quickly (he does have a video of lelouch as zero admiting the "truth" of having used them after all)
better to have people believe that he died as a hero then risk shnizel blowing the lid on the whole thing if he feels like it

can you quote the changes you made about the "sins" part please

Schneizel knew, but one could argue he might actually keep tight lipped on it given his whole "don't crush their hopes" MO. Probably unlikely, but with Schneizel, you never know.

And actually, as the cries of people on Horai proved, Zero's death was a huge morale dropper for the UFN, which in turn can have drastic effects on things from military, to the economy, to some people looking to turn traitor to save themselves.

And even if Schneizel did try to expose a false Zero, his video only had Lellouch and Kallen on it (and Shinkirou possibly, but they claimed it was stolen when Rolo took it and no one seemed to question the Demon King having it, so they could say Britannia stole it, found it and used it, or copied its appearance), so they could claim that Kallen was forced to help them stage the video during her capture, or that it was people using those masks Sayoko used. Besides, exposing a prince of their own country as a traitor wouldn't really do wonders for Britannian morale either.

And I just made a seperate response to your response. It should be on page 249 of this thread.

@ Levy: Not with the advent of FLEIJA they wouldn't. Even then, the reason they were able to be equal to Britannia during the Damocles battle was because Lelouch had fractured his military by putting down many rebeling nobles and their forces, and Schneizel destroying Pendragon crippled their infrastructure. Britannia controlled just over two thirds of the globe at the time.

In a way that makes the attempt to kill Lelouch all the sadder. They were essentially doomed on a military level offensively and defensively, so killing Lelouch was a sore attempt at a parting shot against something.

And thanks

An idea I would love to see would be that Charles isn't standing around at Kamine island for...whatever after the Tokyo battle and betrayal of Lelouch. He could use Lelouch's 'pretend to join the UFN' plan to focus the UFN on himself and take it over in one fell swoop, especially if he planned to have Schneizel come to the meeting with him and only used THAT to distract Schneizel's focus while his own men/KOR snuck onto Damocles.

Imagine him staring down Kaguya or the TV monitors and declaring that there was no longer an 'earth,' there was only Britannia.