My Anime Experience as a Film/Media Student (Aka Anime Fanbase Criticism)

[Taufiq91]

For the past 7 months, i have indulged myself into anime after a 2 year hiatus. It all started with occult Academy. I was into the Evil Dead and The Wicker Man, and both are pretty much my favourite horror films. When i heard about Occult Academy from MasakoX, i've decided to check it out since it's basically inspired by both Evil Dead and the Wicker Man. And i liked it.

And ever since, i've watched more animes than films. And as a film student, it's great.

But as the months go by, i've seen complains, moans and troubles within the industry and fanbase. And you know what?

I am hoping that one day, the anime fanbase will create serious discussions based on the civility of Roger Ebert & Gene Siskel.

I was raised by the likes of Ebert & Siskel. Their level of discussion is based on the idea that "If It's Good, it's Good" and their level of civility has influenced how films should be discussed. If you like it, you like it. And If you hate, you hate it.

And there should be reason why you either like it or hate it. Was it because of the direction or acting or writing? Does the bad acting or directing distracts you from enjoying the experience? Was the CGI so bad that distracts you from enjoying the film?

This level of discussion applies to every genre of film, and therefore the content and/or genre does not equal to how good or bad the film is.

Sadly, some of the anime fanbase decides to judge an anime based on the content instead of the quality of it. And i felt sad by that.

For example, i've read some complains against animes that are "moe". they say that this anime sucks because it's a "moeblob anime". But they didn't explain how or why . They just say it sucks without any proper reasoning whatsoever.

And some of these animes considered as "moeblob" are animes that have good visuals, nice storylines and even great writing. And to see these animes being dismissed for being "moeblob" is just wrong. you can't judge a medium based on it's specifics.

Atleast when a film critic criticized Twilight, he/she criticized it because it was a crap film with wooden acting and bad pacing, not because it's Twilight.

And yes, while there is an oversaturation of moe animes, that doesn't mean all of them sucks. Some of them can have a great storylines and beautiful visuals, and nice pacing and a great sense of mise-en-scene.

Just because an anime is not Bebop or Evangelion or any other Adult Swim anime doesn't mean it's a crap anime. If you said "moe or slice of life is not my cup of tea", then it's fine. But if you said "it sucks because it's a moeblob anime" with any valid reasoning or proof whatsoever, then you're an asshole.

We live in an age where film snobs are no longer taken seriously in film discussions (They are easily shot down by other critics nowadays). But to see such level of immaturity still existing today in this fanbase is just wrong. And Gene Siskel is rolling in his grave.

[Kyuu]

I farted.

Spoiler:

Anyways, as far as "moe-blob" goes, I'd have to say. Haters are outnumbered by those who actually enjoy those types of series. So, ... eh, let the haters hate.

And in contrast, not every "moe-blob" is great. Some of them are mediocre or flat out suck. That is simply because - they were trying too hard. Trying too hard to impress. Or, their characters appear to be either forced, cliche, or cookie-cutter. Then put them in a story that is... eh... "dry".

Just because an anime is not Bebop or Evangelion or any other Adult Swim anime doesn't mean it's a crap anime

If you happen to be discussing anime with someone who only makes these kinds of points, you're talking to an "elitist". Not worth my time, IMO. I'll watch what I watch. I'll like what I like. I don't care what some "snob" thinks.

[Reckoner]

Well I can't speak for others, but if I ever use the term "moeblob" it's because the characters are as shallow as a piece of paper, have poor character development, and are pretty much based on known character archetypes that elicit a feeling of "moe" rather than having any real sort of substance to them.

Though there are people who hate the genre of moe and may use the term in ways that are not really befitting of some shows, I do think they are in the minority.

[Taufiq91]

[QUOTE=Kyuu;3574294]

And in contrast, not every "moe-blob" is great. Some of them are mediocre or flat out suck. That is simply because - they were trying too hard. Trying too hard to impress. Or, their characters appear to be either forced, cliche, or cookie-cutter. Then put them in a story that is... eh... "dry".[QUOTE]

Actually that was one of my points. There were crappy moe blob animes i hate too the same way there are crappy Hollywood romance flicks.

But also there are good Hollywood romance flicks and there are good moe-blob animes too. So therefore, to judge an anime based on it's content is just wrong. You cannot do that.

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

I farted.


If you happen to be discussing anime with someone who only makes these kinds of points, you're talking to an "elitist". Not worth my time, IMO. I'll watch what I watch. I'll like what I like. I don't care what some "snob" thinks.

I know that. The problem is that whereas film snobs are not taken seriously, these kind of anime snobs are being supported & taken seriously like a preacher at a black church.

Just go to Kotaku, where it's 99% of "MOEBLOBS SUCK!" comments filled with "I AGREE" replies.

[Ash Falls Town]

I think there are a lot of things which cause this.

1. A lot of people are afraid if they scrutinize their favorite series it may end up not meeting certain "objective" standards they believe exist.
2. There's the catch 22 Don't Like Don't Watch/Don't Complain About Shows You Don't Watch.
3. The widespread belief of the aforementioned "objective" standards being discredited which hurts any sort of discourse. Even regardless of their lack of existence this sort of stuff can still be useful but just saying "that's just your opinion" or haters gonna hate image macros can't be countered.

Anyway there's a lot which prevents this sort of discourse which would take ages to write completely out.
Although I will say that there's nothing wrong with not being interested in certain genres. As long as you're not offended by them existing in the first place. After all if you're opposed to all forms of violence don't watch fighting or mecha shows. You might enjoy a show that doesn't look interesting but I think people can usually spot shows they'll actively hate.

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

1. A lot of people are afraid if they scrutinize their favorite series it may end up not meeting certain "objective" standards they believe exist

.

You strike a really good point there and that i think you should never expect too much from a medium.

The rule of film is: Never Expect Too Much.

If you're a viewer of a film or a maker of a film, you should never expect your film to be good or bad. You should just go with the flow and decided on your own.

I just watched Overnight which is a documentary on Troy Duffy, the man behind the popular cult-hit The Boondock Saints. When Troy got his script sold to Harvey Weinstein, he expected everyone to praise him like a god and call him "the greatest indie filmaker ever"

Instead, his expectations have left him alienating his friends and nakamas and he's now just a drunk one-hit wonder who blew his chances with his ego (No, i'm not talking you, Yamakan)

Bakuman and Overnight taught me that expectations should be law and you should go with the flow in order to have good within your hand. That goes the same with audiences watching films & animes. Never expect too much.

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

2. There's the catch 22 Don't Like Don't Watch/Don't Complain About Shows You Don't Watch.

The problem with this is that most people are becoming less informed but more opinionated. they don't know what it is, but they are still going to talk about it because they think they have all the answers.

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

3. The widespread belief of the aforementioned "objective" standards being discredited which hurts any sort of discourse. Even regardless of their lack of existence this sort of stuff can still be useful but just saying "that's just your opinion" or haters gonna hate image macros can't be countered.

Good point.

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

Anyway there's a lot which prevents this sort of discourse which would take ages to write completely out.
Although I will say that there's nothing wrong with not being interested in certain genres. As long as you're not offended by them existing in the first place. After all if you're opposed to all forms of violence don't watch fighting or mecha shows. You might enjoy a show that doesn't look interesting but I think people can usually spot shows they'll actively hate.

I think Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica totally subverts that last line over there by saying that "you might hate this, but you'll know you have to watch it after episode 3".

[Tempester]

I think that most people who enjoy lashing out against entire genres and crusading against the "cancer that is killing anime" belong to one of the following categories:

1. Inexperienced anime fans. Those who have watched less than 20 anime or so tend to be inexperienced with all the genres and variety that anime has to offer. They got into anime watching the popular stuff and some awesome classics and feel alienated after reaching further into the medium and discovering that (*gasp*) not all anime are like Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop and Akira (the last of which is overrated, but that's another topic). Also, a lot of tropes in anime are an acquired taste, especially the Japanese idea of fanservice. They haven't been brainwashed by it yet.

2. Noisy kids. Do you remember saying a lot of stupid things about various entertainment when you were younger? So do I, although I'm probably saying some stupid things today. Typically, these people have bad grammar, punctuation and spelling. They also tend to speak in superlatives and give disproportionally large amounts of leverage in rating shows based on how "hot" or "cool" a single character in it is. That said, there is sure to be lots of intelligent younger members here, quite a few more so than me. And I'm probably like a kid relative to some of the others here like Vexx.

3. Trolls. Watch out for these people. They can really waste your time if they are skilled enough. It's even possible that they enjoy the genre they're trolling and are simply fishing for attention.

The well-experienced anime critic who is fed up with a certain genre to the point of actively making long heated conversations about how it deserves to be extinguished seems to be quite rare around Animesuki. You'll tend to find a lot of these types along with a much higher proportion of the three other types in that board titled by the first letter of the alphabet surrounded by two slashes, which you should stay away from as much as possible.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

Actually that was one of my points. There were crappy moe blob animes i hate too the same way there are crappy Hollywood romance flicks.

But also there are good Hollywood romance flicks and there are good moe-blob animes too. So therefore, to judge an anime based on it's content is just wrong. You cannot do that.

I think you have some good points, and personally I always try to watch things in unprejudiced manners. But "Moeblob" in particular often attracts a lot of criticism because it's often written in a very "by the numbers" way, and holds little artistic merit. It's the same with "Harem Anime" which is also near universally loathed. It's very formulaic.

That's not to say it's all bad, a lot of shows with Moe or Harem elements often succeed very well, but usually not based on it's moe elements alone. They usually bring something else to the table like Horror (Higurashi) or Drama (Clannad). Shows which are purely based on Moe appeal are usually terrible, as they're basically just Otaku pandering (like Shuffle, Shufuku no Campanella from a season or two back).

Moe also tends towards extremely sacharine writing, which is very difficult to take. The closest analog I can think of is modern Romantic Comedy in the USA. The only good Rom-com I know of in the last 5 years was 500 Days of Summer. Every other RomCom produced has been tired, cliched and uninspired(like, say, confessions of a shopaholic). Before the 90s many more good romantic comedies were produced, right now it's a tired genre appealing to lonely women. But Romantic Comedy itself is not inherently bad, many good Romcoms are produced outside the US, and even our own Anime has some very good ones.

I think, actually, that the crash in RomCom appeal may have had knock-on effects in (male) western fans, who have the delusion that anything remotely romantic is automatically bad.

[totoum]

As a fellow s a Film/Media Student I ask,why critisize anime fans in particular?

Have you tried talking about movies on a website like IMDB?Lots of people critisize twilight because it's Twilight and never bother explaining why (or even going to see the movie)

The level of civility between Roger Ebert & Gene Siskel is something unique.
They were friends who respected each other,that means that could accept the fact that if one didn't agree with the other then that didn't mean the other didn't have good taste or was stupid.You don't see that often on the internet.
There was also a chemestry that grew between them over the years that can't be replicated,just look at how they tried to replace Siskel after his death,no replacement could reach the same level of chemestry he had with Ebert,the show just wasn't the same.

So basicly I think that asking something of that level to all forum members is asking for too much,however you could try to find particular members you seem to get along with,even if you don't always agree with them,and start discussing with them,and try to see if you can build that relationship both Ebert and siskel had.

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by totoum

As a fellow s a Film/Media Student I ask,why critisize anime fans in particular?

Have you tried talking about movies on a website like IMDB?Lots of people critisize twilight because it's Twilight and never bother explaining why (or even going to see the movie)

I knew IMDb will be brought up somehow.

But then again IMDb is nothing more than a "speaker's corner with arguing audiences" than a proper message board. Unlike majority of other great film forums or sites like Reddit, it's not moderated well (even 4chan is moderated better than IMDb) so it's not a strong place for proper film discussion (except for the Oscar Buzz board)

Originally Posted by totoum

The level of civility between Roger Ebert & Gene Siskel is something unique.
They were friends who respected each other,that means that could accept the fact that if one didn't agree with the other then that didn't mean the other didn't have good taste or was stupid.You don't see that often on the internet.
There was also a chemestry that grew between them over the years that can't be replicated,just look at how they tried to replace Siskel after his death,no replacement could reach the same level of chemestry he had with Ebert,the show just wasn't the same.

So basicly I think that asking something of that level to all forum members is asking for too much,however you could try to find particular members you seem to get along with,even if you don't always agree with them,and start discussing with them,and try to see if you can build that relationship both Ebert and siskel had.

Yeah, you do make a point about Ebert & Siskel's relationship. It's very brotherly and friendly, and to me their influence has led to a rise of new film critics who based their manners & civility on Ebert & Siskel (esp. Nathan Rabin, Nostalgia Critic, JesuOtaku, etc.)

And you know what? I'd love to see an Ebert & Siskel format show for anime, where it's basically two anime fans just sitting down arguing about anime episodes aired in the season in a civil but debating manner. That kind of show would be good, but it needs to be popular in a Nostal Critic/TGWTG scale, where it couls cause a strong discussion within the online fandom.

[DonQuigleone]

I think a lot of the flaming that goes on between anime fans is as much a product of the internet as anything else. Can you think of any Internet based Fandom that isn't like that? Anonymity+ the ability to say anything cause a lot of people to go unhinged.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

For example, i've read some complains against animes that are "moe". they say that this anime sucks because it's a "moeblob anime". But they didn't explain how or why . They just say it sucks without any proper reasoning whatsoever.

Um, that IS how and why. Calling an anime a "moeblob" anime is like calling Twilight a "Mary Sue" movie. They're descriptive, objective terms that highlight a lousy part of the work.

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

And some of these animes considered as "moeblob" are animes that have good visuals, nice storylines and even great writing. And to see these animes being dismissed for being "moeblob" is just wrong. you can't judge a medium based on it's specifics.

Atleast when a film critic criticized Twilight, he/she criticized it because it was a crap film with wooden acting and bad pacing, not because it's Twilight.

See what you did? You picked out a couple of things wrong with Twilight and said it sucked as a result. You did NOT highlight any potentially redeeming aspects of the movie, or offer a balanced evaluation in anyway. You calling Twilight bad because of wooden acting is like us calling an anime bad because of moeblobs. We don't say "<anime name> is bad because it's <anime name>!" We highlight an objectively bad part about it and we use that as justification as to why it's not a good anime.

Originally Posted by Tempester

1. Inexperienced anime fans. Those who have watched less than 20 anime or so tend to be inexperienced with all the genres and variety that anime has to offer. They got into anime watching the popular stuff and some awesome classics and feel alienated after reaching further into the medium and discovering that (*gasp*) not all anime are like Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop and Akira (the last of which is overrated, but that's another topic). Also, a lot of tropes in anime are an acquired taste, especially the Japanese idea of fanservice. They haven't been brainwashed by it yet. .

Joking or not, you've just highlighted a major problem with the anime genre (or heck, movies and entertainment in general). Yes, some animes are especially good, but A LOT OF THEM ARE NOT. If something is an acquired taste, then it's simply not good to begin with. If the only way to qualify something as good is to lower your standards, then, again, it's not good.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Joking or not, you've just highlighted a major problem with the anime genre (or heck, movies and entertainment in general). Yes, some animes are especially good, but A LOT OF THEM ARE NOT. If something is an acquired taste, then it's simply not good to begin with. If the only way to qualify something as good is to lower your standards, then, again, it's not good.

Some things are a required taste, or require some experience to fully appreciate. Doesn't make them worse. Heck that goes just as much for "classic literature" in many cases, as these are often tough reads if you are unfamiliar with the language and mores of the era.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Um, that IS how and why. Calling an anime a "moeblob" anime is like calling Twilight a "Mary Sue" movie. They're descriptive, objective terms that highlight a lousy part of the work.

... wait what?

If the term was objective and objectively indicates that something is lousy, I doubt there'd be as much debate over what counts as "moeblob" nor would there be people defending their right to enjoy "moeblob" show.

See what you did? You picked out a couple of things wrong with Twilight and said it sucked as a result. You did NOT highlight any potentially redeeming aspects of the movie, or offer a balanced evaluation in anyway. You calling Twilight bad because of wooden acting is like us calling an anime bad because of moeblobs. We don't say "<anime name> is bad because it's <anime name>!" We highlight an objectively bad part about it and we use that as justification as to why it's not a good anime.

I think you're completely missing the distinction the OP is trying to make. The OP is trying to distinguish the content of an anime from its execution. He's saying that whether you like the anime because of the content (including "mecha," "shounen action," "cute girls doing cute things") is a matter of taste. On the other hand, the execution (including "directing," "production values," "acting") can be evaluated objectively. What he's saying is, Twilight should be criticized on its execution (acting, pacing) instead of its content (romance with sparkly vampires).

Joking or not, you've just highlighted a major problem with the anime genre (or heck, movies and entertainment in general). Yes, some animes are especially good, but A LOT OF THEM ARE NOT. If something is an acquired taste, then it's simply not good to begin with. If the only way to qualify something as good is to lower your standards, then, again, it's not good.

Really? You're going to tell us there's no such thing as an "acquired taste"?

I mean, depending on how you look at it, everything is an acquired taste. You could plop a newborn baby in front of the most amazing work of art in the world and they'd just blow a few spit bubbles and fall asleep. After all, anything you're not born with is acquired from your environment. You don't have to "lower your standards" in order to acquire a taste for something.

I can safely say that if my high school English teachers (as much as I hated that class) had not ground those literary devices and whatnot into my head, I wouldn't have nearly the appreciation for storytelling that I do now. And that makes it very much an "acquired taste."

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

See what you did? You picked out a couple of things wrong with Twilight and said it sucked as a result. You did NOT highlight any potentially redeeming aspects of the movie, or offer a balanced evaluation in anyway. You calling Twilight bad because of wooden acting is like us calling an anime bad because of moeblobs. We don't say "<anime name> is bad because it's <anime name>!" We highlight an objectively bad part about it and we use that as justification as to why it's not a good anime.

Um, no.

I didn't compare moeblob with bad acting. those are two different things.

[mecharobot]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

Atleast when a film critic criticized Twilight, he/she criticized it because it was a crap film with wooden acting and bad pacing, not because it's Twilight.

Funny. The movie critics around here do exactly that. If it hasn't got any artistic merit for them, it sucks.

As for the topic in general, it's useless. People can't talk about things in the right context, they ask for recommendations they don't mean and you see stupid comparisons made between different genres. Also, you always know either too little or too much for open discussion.

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by mecharobot

As for the topic in general, it's useless. People can't talk about things in the right context,

Yeah, but they have to know better.

Originally Posted by mecharobot

they ask for recommendations they don't mean

I see that alot too.

Originally Posted by mecharobot

you see stupid comparisons made between different genres. Also, you always know either too little or too much for open discussion.

Yeah, this really gets on my nerves.

Whys should people compare slice of life animes with action animes? That's like comparing The Notebook with District 9.

THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT GENRES AND THEY HAVE THEIR OWN STYLE. STOP COMPARING THEM!

[ahelo]

Moe is bashed because of the lack of depth in it. It's because "moeblob" series as we call it, are usually entirely character driven with plot to ignore. That's not necessarily a bad thing and can be very entertaining sometimes, but there's a level in which one cannot take anymore why a series can even pass as a series where the only thing you can see are characters being cute. Yes being cute can be entertaining to an extent but if that's the only thing I can get to the show then I'm damn proud to hate that moeblob series. So when one says, "Gah I hate this series because it's moeblob", maybe sometimes they do have a point. You can put so much quality and great acting into something, but when you think something isn't good, it isn't unfair to say it isn't good because you think so.

If we are talking about films, I'm pretty sure your very familiar with getting irritated over rehashes, repeats, dejavus of "Hey I've seen this before". Some of us feel this way with our moe animu.

Besides most of the time, it's the internet who's always complaining. These moeblob series are usually the ones who sell well in the end, and for creators, that's what's important for them. Who cares about critics when you have droves of fans anyway?

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by ahelo

Moe is bashed because of the lack of depth in it. It's because "moeblob" series as we call it, are usually entirely character driven with plot to ignore. That's not necessarily a bad thing and can be very entertaining sometimes, but there's a level in which one cannot take anymore why a series can even pass as a series where the only thing you can see are characters being cute. Yes being cute can be entertaining to an extent but if that's the only thing I can get to the show then I'm damn proud to hate that moeblob series. So when one says, "Gah I hate this series because it's moeblob", maybe sometimes they do have a point. You can put so much quality and great acting into something, but when you think something isn't good, it isn't unfair to say it isn't good because you think so.

But how do you know that the "moe" ruined it? Did it overtook most of the mise en scene? Did it became a primary character trait?

If i'm going to criticise a moeblob anime or anime with a trope, then i'm going to criticize it based on how it takes away the viewing experience. There are animes that i think uses too much of character tropes or stereotypes that it takes away the experience of watching it.

Originally Posted by ahelo

If we are talking about films, I'm pretty sure your very familiar with getting irritated over rehashes, repeats, dejavus of "Hey I've seen this before". Some of us feel this way with our moe animu.

Well, you can say that people make moe animes the same way people make Matthew McConnaughey films and Tarantino knockoff films.

However, i do admit that moe is EVERYWHERE, from simple and easy stuff like K-On to dark and psychological stuff like Steins;gate. it's like having Apple computers in majority of Hollywood films. i call it a "personality placement", which is basically product placement but instead of putting Sony and Budweisers in your works, you instead put tsundere and moe in it.

Originally Posted by ahelo

Besides most of the time, it's the internet who's always complaining. These moeblob series are usually the ones who sell well in the end, and for creators, that's what's important for them. Who cares about critics when you have droves of fans anyway?

But critics do have a lasting influence in your body of work. They're pretty much the decision makers on what's good or bad for those who are undecided.

And while you might have fans, they will leave you at the end of the day if your work kept sucking and cause the fans to agree with the critics in the end. Look at what happened to this guy: