[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 394 Discussion

[Frostwake]

Originally Posted by sayde

Both bad guys and good guys alike make self-proclamations of their strength all the time in shounen's such as this. So because actions speak far louder than words, it's not until the outcome of the battle is decided that this claim can be officially proven true.

Well actually, Yamamoto is the only character in this manga that never brags about nonsense... If you remember every fight, he always delivered... not once did he get overly cocky only to be defeated like everyone else

So if he says he is the strongest, I believe it... Though I cant believe Kubo would leave Ichigo out of this of course, theres no way Yama will deliver the final blow

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by sayde

Why? Because depending on the translation, Aizen's implying that Yamamoto isn't nearly as powerful without Ryuujin Jakka. Meanwhile based on what we've seen so far and the monologue given by Gin a few chapters ago, Aizen comes off as as an extremely powerful and balanced fighter even without his zanpakuto.

Who in the show is as powerful without zan as with a zan? excluding Kenpachi that it.

So what Gin says must be true but what yama says must be questioned ?

Originally Posted by sayde

Based on what? Up until that little stunt with Hinamori, Aizen was handling captain lvl opponents just fine without illusions. We also don't know if he even needed to use the Hinamori illusion to escape the captains assault in the first place.

Since he had to use it its most likley because he needed it, cant say for sure though.

Originally Posted by sayde

Both bad guys and good guys alike make self-proclamations of their strength all the time in shounen's such as this. So because actions speak far louder than words, it's not until the outcome of the battle is decided that this claim can be officially proven true. Besides, Yamamoto's statement might have been 100% true if we inlcude his zanpakuto into the matter, but without his zanpakuto and without knowing the full extent of Aizen's own strength, it's quite possible that he can be wrong.

Depends on how you want to interpret his words, he could very well mean shinigami(not including zan) that has been born the last 1000 years or if he means shinigami + zan born in the last 1000 years, im inclined to think the first.

Originally Posted by kamyu

irrelevant since the comparison isn't being made to yamamoto either way

So he compared RJ with his own sword then ?

Originally Posted by kamyu

irrelevant since it is yamamoto's quote.

No its not irrelevant, if you reply with we dont know aizens full strength you cant call bs when i say we down know Yamas full strength either.

[Kafriel]

So what Gin says must be true but what yama says must be questioned ?

Gin was a mouthpiece of the author, he was talking to himself so he has no reason to lie.....Aizen and Yamamoto are having a conversation, either one could bluff all they want.

we dont know aizens full strength you cant call bs when i say we down know Yamas full strength either.

We also don't know if either of them will get a CHANCE to show their full strength, all we can do is wait for the next chapter.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Bassoonicmayhem

Using the same context that kamyu used, I was able to get my point into words, so thanks kamyu.

It's irrelevant since the majority of the Captains and Vizards who have been defeated didn't display their full strength. We hardly know the strength of Joshiro; he got stabbed in the back, literally, before he could fight and our knowledge before hand is limited as well. The same can be said for the majority of the Captains and Vizards. What I'm trying to say is, in Bleach, you can get defeat before you have gone 'full strength.'

The same might happen to Yamaji and it probably will since his sword has been sealed. Now he only has kido and actual strength on his side. We know he's strong, he proved that in this chapter, it was awesome; but have we actually seen him use kido before? He has to be the master or extremely good at it since he made the Academy and such, but still, we haven't seen it. Plus, it was proven before that Aizen himself is extremely good at kido as well. I'm starting to get exciting about this hypothetical fight but I digress.

I think when he knocked out Hinamori while she was talking to Hitsugaya that was kido. If it was, he didn't say a word when he performed the technique.

[Le_Rukia]

I enjoyed this chapter

my quote of the day is ......

'You're naive ....so naive it makes me dizzy'

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Gin was a mouthpiece of the author, he was talking to himself so he has no reason to lie.....Aizen and Yamamoto are having a conversation, either one could bluff all they want.

Yama isnt the one to lie, if it where noi, Grimmjaw or someone like that I could very well think so, but not the CC.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

We also don't know if either of them will get a CHANCE to show their full strength, all we can do is wait for the next chapter.

Agree, but cant say something about one character and not apply it to the other etc, its gets just wrong.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Who in the show is as powerful without zan as with a zan? excluding Kenpachi that it.

You were kind of missing my point. While it's true that most shinigami in Bleach are less powerful without their zanpakuto, the degree to which they become less capable in combat depends on their skills in other areas. If their skills with a zanpakuto are all they primarily focused on, then they'd suffer a major handicap without their weapon in comparison to someone who may have fully mastered forms of combat in other areas.

So to question who is the stronger fighter between Aizen and Yamamoto without the use of their zanpakuto's is a valid point to think about. Because it begs the question of who is better at things like agility, hand-to-hand combat, and Kido.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by sayde

So to question who is the stronger fighter between Aizen and Yamamoto without the use of their zanpakuto's is a valid point to think about. Because it begs the question of who is better at things like agility, hand-to-hand combat, and Kido.

In terms of speculation. For their actual battle, not so much I think. Yamamoto might very well be better at all those things. Yet he entered the battle prepared to use a suicidal technique--one that would also sacrifice the lives of his own followers. Obviously he wasn't too confident his usual techniques could get the job done.

Aizen's biggest strength is that he makes conventional skills almost irrelevant. An enemy you couldn't be sure you landed a blow on, never be sure the kidou spell worked, never know what kind of counter he's prepared... until it's too late. Attacking him head-on is mostly a waste of energy. Yamamoto realized that, so he did his best to catch Aizen off guard with an unescapable attack which failed. He's fighting with pure guts alone now and doing much better than I think even Aizen expected, but it's anyone's guess as to how long he can keep it up.

[kitten320]

Go Yamamoto! His hand punches are far more efficient than all sword cuts from others!

By the way does WW have high regeneration? Yama had done bunch of holes and yet in other pages he is fully fine.

[Kakosan]

Well, the point is that after yamamoto is done with whatever we wants to hit, he'll realize that everything was an illusion. End of the story, Bye Yamamoto!

[Ryuuken]

Originally Posted by Frostwake

Well actually, Yamamoto is the only character in this manga that never brags about nonsense... If you remember every fight, he always delivered... not once did he get overly cocky only to be defeated like everyone else

So if he says he is the strongest, I believe it... Though I cant believe Kubo would leave Ichigo out of this of course, theres no way Yama will deliver the final blow

Oh really ? When Yamamoto fought Kyouraku and Shunsui, he said quite some bullshit.



Well here is a theory for the current matter: Killing WW will result in Ryuujin Jakka being sealed (for good?).
That's why Aizen doesn't say anything and doesn't interfere; and after WW is dead, he can say again "just as planned"

[Corruption]

Yamamoto is a beast lol. I'm glad we finally get to witness his true strenght.

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

In terms of speculation. For their actual battle, not so much I think. Yamamoto might very well be better at all those things. Yet he entered the battle prepared to use a suicidal technique--one that would also sacrifice the lives of his own followers. Obviously he wasn't too confident his usual techniques could get the job done.

Aizen's biggest strength is that he makes conventional skills almost irrelevant. An enemy you couldn't be sure you landed a blow on, never be sure the kidou spell worked, never know what kind of counter he's prepared... until it's too late. Attacking him head-on is mostly a waste of energy. Yamamoto realized that, so he did his best to catch Aizen off guard with an unescapable attack which failed. He's fighting with pure guts alone now and doing much better than I think even Aizen expected, but it's anyone's guess as to how long he can keep it up.

Remember Aizen got the illusionability ? He had to get Aizen close then use a suicideattack that focused on burning the area around him.

It is obvious that if Aizen didnt have that ability Yama wouldnt have used that attack.

Originally Posted by Ryuuken

Oh really ? When Yamamoto fought Kyouraku and Shunsui, he said quite some bullshit.

Quote that bullshit please. I just read that fight again and if you could point it out it would be great

[Ryuuken]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Quote that bullshit please. I just read that fight again and if you could point it out it would be great

First of all, he pretended to be cold hearted against those 2, even though their relationship was really deep. He was like "we going to fight to real here", however in the end, no one had any injury, no one was incredible worn out, Yamamoto obviously held back.

Secondly all his justice philosophy was entire bullshit in that situation, and those 2 proved it by bringing up sound arguments, Yamaji however, just like an old stubborn man wouldn't listen.

[Bokkin]

So we know Yama is a buff ass old dude....but buff ass old dudes can be killed (I.E. king of HM) those dudes have lots-o-power but we know they are over confident in themselves because they think since they've been around this long.....who is gonna challenge them....but really when it comes down to this there is always someone stronger.....so yeah I'm thing yama is about to get the ass whoopin of his life....Or think he's winning....the WHOOPS! it was all an illusion...ur dead.....either way I think Yama is about to be ended....

and hopefully yama dies.....Ichigo does some fighting....the usual Ichigo semi-dies the has revelation/crazy MF'n transformation but by that time it's too late...Aizen does his make the key thing....zero division fucks him up (I hope Isshin is related) and yey! end o Aizen arc/bleach....

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by Ryuuken

First of all, he pretended to be cold hearted against those 2, even though their relationship was really deep. He was like "we going to fight to real here", however in the end, no one had any injury, no one was incredible worn out, Yamamoto obviously held back.

Secondly all his justice philosophy was entire bullshit in that situation, and those 2 proved it by bringing up sound arguments, Yamaji however, just like an old stubborn man wouldn't listen.

He was committed to taking them down, he is in a leaderposition and he cant secondguess himself all the time.

Shunsui/Ukitake didnt sway Yama, it was when Isane and Unohana did their emergency broadcast that everyon finally understood what was happening, then the fight ended and they surged on Aizen.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by Bokkin

So we know Yama is a buff ass old dude....but buff ass old dudes can be killed (I.E. king of HM) those dudes have lots-o-power but we know they are over confident in themselves because they think since they've been around this long.....who is gonna challenge them....but really when it comes down to this there is always someone stronger.....so yeah I'm thing yama is about to get the ass whoopin of his life....Or think he's winning....the WHOOPS! it was all an illusion...ur dead.....either way I think Yama is about to be ended....

Aizen is the overconfident one, good sir.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Ryuuken

First of all, he pretended to be cold hearted against those 2, even though their relationship was really deep. He was like "we going to fight to real here", however in the end, no one had any injury, no one was incredible worn out, Yamamoto obviously held back.

Secondly all his justice philosophy was entire bullshit in that situation, and those 2 proved it by bringing up sound arguments, Yamaji however, just like an old stubborn man wouldn't listen.

Shunsui and Ukitake look somewhat worn on page 12 of chp 172 or just some light singes from Yama's fire :3

[kamyu]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

So he compared RJ with his own sword then ?

still irrelevant because it still isn't comparing anything to yamamoto himself.

No its not irrelevant, if you reply with we dont know aizens full strength you cant call bs when i say we down know Yamas full strength either.

the question i asked was if yamamoto knows aizen's full strength since it was yamamoto who made the statement.

so yes, what we know about aizen is irrelevant.

[Mr. DJ]

everything is irrelevant right now...

*stares at kamyu's banner*