Romance in Code Geass (Take 2)

[DragoonKain3]

Meh, I could care less if they're 'happy', 'successful', or whatnot. CG ain't a fairytale, and CCXLulu being strifed with problems is something I would expect of such a show. No happily ever after for those two, and I wouldn't expect one either. As such, my point still stands. One being immortal while the other mortal means jack when it comes to romance.

[quina]

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

Shiki is going to die because of his eyes in a few years anyways.

[/QUOTE]

huh? where do you get that from? I played through every single route there is nothing that states that (other than Akiha's good route where his body continue to grow weaker because of blood sucks). He pretty much got better by the end of every route. And no, there is no anime.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Are you trying to tell me Kallen never wanted to get to know Zero? In S1 she certainly wanted to know who was behind the mask like most of the Black Knights. She even said in E9 that she wants to but fears that if the truth is revealed he will leave. She even wanted to get to know Lelouch until he told her thats it better to bow down to Brittania. Saying she didn't want to know him is absurd its more like he kept these things secret.

She had somewhat of an opportunity during episode 12 where it looked like Lelouch was offering to show her his face, but she declines his offer. This is subsequently reinforced when she tries to stop the others from unmasking Zero. When she walked in on him without his suit on in episode 13 was another instance which she could have pushed forward but chose no too, indulging in his words instead. I think more then anything, Kallen was afraid of getting deeper because having that helmet allowed her to envision whoever she wanted on Zero, not who he really was.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Are you trying to tell me Kallen never wanted to get to know Zero? In S1 she certainly wanted to know who was behind the mask like most of the Black Knights. She even said in E9 that she wants to but fears that if the truth is revealed he will leave. She even wanted to get to know Lelouch until he told her thats it better to bow down to Brittania. Saying she didn't want to know him is absurd its more like he kept these things secret.

See episode 12.
-"Kallen, do you wish to know my identity?"
"(that person knows)...no. sorry for the intrusion."
-"please wait! Zero brought us power and victory, that should be..."

or 13 (tries to leave room when she sees towel!Zero), or 18 (tries to kill Suzaku "for Zero"), or 25 (freaks out).

[Grimkill7]

Originally Posted by quina

huh? where do you get that from? I played through every single route there is nothing that states that (other than Akiha's good route where his body continue to grow weaker because of blood sucks). He pretty much got better by the end of every route. And no, there is no anime.

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

It's said by Aoko in the game's epilogue. His eyes will grow continually more powerful until his brain is destroyed by the pressure.

But this is getting off topic.

While Kallen is my favorite character, I'll have to agree that any previous romantic development she might have had with Zero will not affect her present relationship with Lelouch. But Tanaguchi promised us more romance this time around so I'm sure she'll get a scene or 2 at the least.

[quina]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

She had somewhat of an opportunity during episode 12 where it looked like Lelouch was offering to show her his face, but she declines his offer. This is subsequently reinforced when she tries to stop the others from unmasking Zero. When she walked in on him without his suit on in episode 13 was another instance which she could have pushed forward but chose no too, indulging in his words instead. I think more then anything, Kallen was afraid of getting deeper because having that helmet allowed her to envision whoever she wanted on Zero, not who he really was.

I still don't get why people are thinking it as an 'offer'. May be its because of the sub, but yeah I don't watch sub.
To me the sentence is a question, not an offer. There is a huge different between,

Zero: Do you want to know my identity too? (which is what said in the episode)
and
Zero: Shall I reveal you my identity? (an offer, he never said this)

He would not reveal it even if she said 'Yes, Zero please tell me your identity' anyway. To me clearly thats not an offer, its a question. He asked that because he wants to know her point of view.
There is no way he would reveal it. He said that much during Shirley's arc that this geass and his identity must be keep absolute secret to maintain Nannaly's well being and he is willing to kill for it.

[KrimzonStriker]

Uhmm, the fact that he didn't kill Shirely and went with the impractical route of erasing his existence from her memory (I think this was more about giving Shirely closure, so that she wouldn't be burdened with loving him anymore or something) pretty much shows his resolve isn't infalable.

And who knows, I'm skeptical about that line myself, but the point being Kallen didn't even try to know when she had a chance to ask and immediately squashed that desire despite resentment that C.C knew.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by ashlay

See episode 12.
-"Kallen, do you wish to know my identity?"
"(that person knows)...no. sorry for the intrusion."
-"please wait! Zero brought us power and victory, that should be..."

This was when she was jealous of CC but didn't want to give into that jealousy.

Originally Posted by ashlay

or 13 (tries to leave room when she sees towel!Zero), or 18 (tries to kill Suzaku "for Zero"), or 25 (freaks out).

We can go back to Ep 9 about these because she felt if his identity was revealed he would leave so she felt it better to respect his wishes. I think it shows more of her character that she respected his wishes even though deep down she wanted to know just as much as rest of people. Also we see her often asking Zero for advice and his opinions so I think she certainly tried to get to know his motives and beliefs.

[KrimzonStriker]

Nice as that is, if she never was willing to learn who was the person underneath the mask then any relationship or feelings she felt would amount to one-sided admiration, not a deep love of some kind.

[Shinji103]

I'm gonna go back on my far-reaching limb and say LelouchxShirely again. Even after the whole memory-wipe deal back in season 1, we're back to Shirley having an evident crush on Lelouch right off the bat in episode 1.

[KrimzonStriker]

Bag of bricks dropped on a car fendor anyone?

[quina]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I'm gonna go back on my far-reaching limb and say LelouchxShirely again. Even after the whole memory-wipe deal back in season 1, we're back to Shirley having an evident crush on Lelouch right off the bat in episode 1.

yeah, 'more romance''s promise by FO, I think probably comes from Shirley rather than Kallen. But yes, its a long shot she need a lot of luck against C.C.

I can image that EVERY girls confessions will end up like Kaguya...
"It is unfortunate, but I already made a pact with a devil" and walked away.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I suppose she was to a certain degree in episode 9, but that was really the only time I saw that featured Lelouch and not Zero.

It is important that she be interested in Lelouch and not be all fangirlish around Zero. That wasn't love, it was intense admiration that honestly made her character suffer a bit in the development department.

Which episode 1 of S2 turned on its head. She greeted him with his own line, meaning she's come to understand what he means. If you think that means nothing for coming to understand someone, then... well I'd be boggled.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Meh, I could care less if they're 'happy', 'successful', or whatnot. CG ain't a fairytale, and CCXLulu being strifed with problems is something I would expect of such a show. No happily ever after for those two, and I wouldn't expect one either. As such, my point still stands. One being immortal while the other mortal means jack when it comes to romance.

Lord Elrond, master of Rivendell, would like to have a long word with you.

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

She had somewhat of an opportunity during episode 12 where it looked like Lelouch was offering to show her his face, but she declines his offer. This is subsequently reinforced when she tries to stop the others from unmasking Zero. When she walked in on him without his suit on in episode 13 was another instance which she could have pushed forward but chose no too, indulging in his words instead. I think more then anything, Kallen was afraid of getting deeper because having that helmet allowed her to envision whoever she wanted on Zero, not who he really was.

While it was already adressed, I thought I'd mentioned it again. Episode 9 showed us what she believed would happen if anyone came to know who Zero was, which was quite accurate. It doesn't matter how often the chance presentes itself, love, admiration, or for shits and giggles, if she tries to pry into his identity he will disappear and so will everything she's worked for. At which point she gets nothing.

If you want to say anything about Kallen's actions, is that she is the one person that would nigh-never betray Zero/Lelouch. Put that against all the extra baggage C.C. has.

Originally Posted by quina

I still don't get why people are thinking it as an 'offer'. May be its because of the sub, but yeah I don't watch sub.
To me the sentence is a question, not an offer. There is a huge different between,

Zero: Do you want to know my identity too? (which is what said in the episode)
and
Zero: Shall I reveal you my identity? (an offer, he never said this)

He would not reveal it even if she said 'Yes, Zero please tell me your identity' anyway. To me clearly thats not an offer, its a question. He asked that because he wants to know her point of view.
There is no way he would reveal it. He said that much during Shirley's arc that this geass and his identity must be keep absolute secret to maintain Nannaly's well being and he is willing to kill for it.

If you put it into English, that can very easily be taken as an offer. Which is where the confusion stems from. It is a question, either way, and some people assumed it was an offer.

Think of it this way: Do you want to know my indenity, too?

The use of too is vague, and could be interpreted as like the other who knows. Which is compounded by the fact that he knew what she was there for and why.

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Nice as that is, if she never was willing to learn who was the person underneath the mask then any relationship or feelings she felt would amount to one-sided admiration, not a deep love of some kind.

Again, no matter how she feels, she can't act on it. If it is found out, he disappears. If she loved him, he's gone. If she admired him, he's gone. Either way its a lose lose. She had no choice but to do what she did and put her faith in him and show him that she could be trusted. Which, has ultimately, paid off because C.C. clearly trusted her with recovering Lelouch, even though Rollo got in the way.

[quina]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Meh, I could care less if they're 'happy', 'successful', or whatnot. CG ain't a fairytale, and CCXLulu being strifed with problems is something I would expect of such a show. No happily ever after for those two, and I wouldn't expect one either. As such, my point still stands. One being immortal while the other mortal means jack when it comes to romance.

It is actually how I want the story to flow and usually it is how it flows.
The couple will face hardship, but they would overcomes it. "Relationship does not worth having without difficulties". Happily ever after will be there, since its sunrise and clamp, not Gainax.

[KrimzonStriker]

While it was already adressed, I thought I'd mentioned it again. Episode 9 showed us what she believed would happen if anyone came to know who Zero was, which was quite accurate. It doesn't matter how often the chance presentes itself, love, admiration, or for shits and giggles, if she tries to pry into his identity he will disappear and so will everything she's worked for. At which point she gets nothing.

If you want to say anything about Kallen's actions, is that she is the one person that would nigh-never betray Zero/Lelouch. Put that against all the extra baggage C.C. has.

Some issues I have. Wasn't it you who brought up Episode 12 as an offer to reveal his identity to her? If the man is willing, then I don't see the problem in consenting to his offer or a risk of him leaving since he was the one who asked her.

Meh, I'll leave that for R2 to prove. We've had our C.C vs. Kallen debates before and it didn't get us anywhere. Drop it Var.

Again, no matter how she feels, she can't act on it. If it is found out, he disappears. If she loved him, he's gone. If she admired him, he's gone. Either way its a lose lose. She had no choice but to do what she did and put her faith in him and show him that she could be trusted. Which, has ultimately, paid off because C.C. clearly trusted her with recovering Lelouch, even though Rollo got in the way.

I'll point to the above on the fact that he was the one who offered, so why exactly is there a fear he will disappear again?

And how exactly does admiration lead to him disappearing either, she admired him quite openely on several occasions and he was still around

And lastly, I'm sure Urabe would have been very well suited to infiltrating as a Bunny girl to retrieve Lelouch

[Var]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Some issues I have. Wasn't it you who brought up Episode 12 as an offer to reveal his identity to her? If the man is willing, then I don't see the problem in consenting to his offer or a risk of him leaving since he was the one who asked her.

Meh, I'll leave that for R2 to prove. We've had our C.C vs. Kallen debates before and it didn't get us anywhere. Drop it Var.

I'll point to the above on the fact that he was the one who offered, so why exactly is there a fear he will disappear again?

There's a noteable difference between a circular argument and simple omition of presented material. Which is why I brought it up.

Also, just because someone offers you something doesn't mean it has to be accepted, or that it even can be. One must decide for themselves if it is right (be it the right time or some other reason) to accept the offer. Somethings, as she noted about Zero and his identity, need to be left alone, no matter her own feelings.

The question really falls to: Do you do what is true to how you feel, or do you do what is for best of the whole?

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

And how exactly does admiration lead to him disappearing either, she admired him quite openely on several occasions and he was still around

And lastly, I'm sure Urabe would have been very well suited to infiltrating as a Bunny girl to retrieve Lelouch

I was refering to whether she loved him or admired him, if he's gone, he's gone.

Because C.C. couldn't do it? Or Urabe or any other male couldn't have gone in as a server/waiter? A far less conspicuous disguise than a bunny girl.

[quina]

Originally Posted by Var

Because C.C. couldn't do it? Or Urabe or any other male couldn't have gone in as a server/waiter? A far less conspicuous disguise than a bunny girl.

Kallen was there for pure fan service if you didn't notice that already. She was not able to accomplished ANY of the task assigned to her. Neither planting the bug, nor escorting Lelouche out....... Thinking about it now, its probably better to have her jump down in Gurren Mk II and help Urabe trashing Britania's Knightmare,
C.C. can locate Lelouche either way.

But yes, season 2 would sucks since there would be no Kallen in Bunny suit right?

[Var]

Originally Posted by quina

Kallen was there for pure fan service if you didn't notice that already. She was not able to accomplished ANY of the task assigned to her. Neither planting the bug, nor escorting Lelouche out....... Thinking about it now, its probably better to have her jump down in Gurren Mk II and help Urabe trashing Britania's Knightmare,
C.C. can locate Lelouche either way.

But yes, season 2 would sucks since there would be no Kallen in Bunny suit right?

Yes, pure fan-service. Because they couldn't deliver it equally with C.C. or in some other way. No. Just no.

And, if you didn't notice. She was interupted everytime by an external force. First the black king, then by Rollo. Clearly, her inability to control other people would never have happened to C.C., never. I love strawman arguments.

It would have made more sense for her to crash through not C.C. but that's not what happened. Kallen was there, not C.C.. It means there was initiative on her part for the role.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by quina

Kallen was there for pure fan service if you didn't notice that already. She was not able to accomplished ANY of the task assigned to her. Neither planting the bug, nor escorting Lelouche out....... Thinking about it now, its probably better to have her jump down in Gurren Mk II and help Urabe trashing Britania's Knightmare,
C.C. can locate Lelouche either way.

But yes, season 2 would sucks since there would be no Kallen in Bunny suit right?

Then again she did deal with the Black King and his bodyguards, even if she might have been the initial cause of that situation (depending on whether Lelouch was looking for the guy anyway or not) that's at least worth something.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I'm gonna go back on my far-reaching limb and say LelouchxShirely again. Even after the whole memory-wipe deal back in season 1, we're back to Shirley having an evident crush on Lelouch right off the bat in episode 1.

I wonder how exactly the writers will develop the resurrection of Shirley's crush. Will they develop it further? Or will it just be hinted at? It's an interesting comment on the limits of the Geass, and on how even the ruthless Lelouche can never quite erase all the human connections that surround him. Lelouche wiped her memory, but he's still him, and she's still her, and she still ends up having a crush on him.

It's not that I think she really has a chance, but it could be an interesting plot point.

As for the never-ending C.C./Kallen debate (geez--some of you guys have a lot more energy to argue your cases on this point than I do), all I'll say is this. I always thought C.C./Lelouche would be the pair, and after that dramatic reunion with C.C. ("I'm the only one who knows the true you" or something to that effect), I remain convinced of that opinion.