[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 342 Discussion

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

Of course the reason why Ichigo has hollow powers in the first place is because he came pretty goddamn close to dying...Ichigo has conscious control over his inner hollow now with Visored training, where sheer willpower alone wouldn't work before,

That's my point. It was like Bankai training... Subjugation.

The only difference is Bankai training was done in the material world.

Once you get a Bankai they don't turn on you. Vizard training is basically the same thing.Its just an eternal battle instead of physical one.

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

but it's never really touched just how effective the training will still be when the person in question is in critical condition of dying and slips out of consciousness...

Um...No.

Both Noi and Ulquiorra nearly killed him. At no time did the Hollow re-appear.
Ichigo has been close to death since the Vizard training--Ogichi didn't come out like he had before, on the previous occasions.

Personally I believe that the Hollow couldn't appear at all.(at first)

That his "Shikai" (first release) was in the Ichi vs Bya fight. Since he was born from death he couldn't come out on his own. Until Ichigo was near death...and that was actually a first release.

If he comes out, it will be because Ichigo has called him out.

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

Ichigo's inner hollow is another character inside of Ichigo; It's got it's own personality, and it's personality seeks control, of which it can't obtain if the host dies, but where also the best opportunity to take over would be as close to death as possible...I both do not see Ichigo's inner hollow just disappearing from every plane of existence in the Bleach universe nor do I see Ichigo walking away from Ulquiorra any more scotch-free than he walked away from Grimmjow and maybe worse...

That's where we disagree. I have never believed that the hollow wanted to gain control. The hollow is a entity born from Ichigo's consciousness. He is another side of Zangetsu that was born from Ichigo. He is in fact another part of Ichigo. He is not another being that lives inside of Ichigo. In actuality Ichigo has split into three beings. They cannot exist without him, but he has existed without them. (You can't believe they scouted out his brain and said "Rents Cheap! I will just stay here...o_O....Oi dust out the cobwebs" and just moved in one day)

A Zanpakuto is a direct reflection of it's user. In other words their personalities..

I.e Rukia and Hitsu have Ice Types...Renji is a brute, he has a melee Zanpakuto.

Ichigo has an old soul, of a badass warrior. His hollow is a more extreme version of Ichigo. Ichigo is is considered a hoodlum, and who loves to fight. -Ogichi He has an old soul and he's a noble warrior-Zangetsu (They both reflect a different side of him)

Since Ogichi's first appearance, he's done nothing but instruct Ichigo. People think the "Raise him well, because that power is gonna be mine someday" as indicative of him wanting control. I say it's not. Since he's a part of Ichigo that power is already, his. If Ichigo goes up a level, so does he. That is what he meant.

He already acknowledged Ichigo " I can't let him not win...he is KING of this world" He already had a better idea of Ichigo was than we did. He was living inside of him.

During Vizard training he merely wanted Ichigo to man up. Instead of just killing Ichigo he taught him a lesson. He taught him about himself and he taught him how to defeat him
That is not the act of a being who wants to rest control

He is a tool, and he wanted his King to use him. His king who was afraid of him. If he's afraid of you, he can't properly use you. That was Ogichi's beef.

"Stop being a bitch or I will take over...because no way is a bitch going to rule over me"

He was never out to harm Ichigo. It's just because he is a hollow...he represents death and evil. If Ichigo didn't learn to gain control, he'd go insane and then it would be no difference between the hollow and he. He would in essence become the Hollow. That would make it easier for the Hollow to take over. That is what I believe...


So when we see him, he will not be another adversary. If we see him at all. During Vizard Training...he was turning back into Zangetsu when Ichigo defeated him. He may not show up at all.

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

At least Ichigo's inner hollow is a more reasonable crack theory than Orihime having an inner hollow...

Lemme give you some dap *Fist to Fist* Word...

[Langus]

I'm gonna laugh when Kubo proves you wrong on this one

[hakisak]

Er...care to elaborate on this one Langus?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by hakisak

During Vizard training he merely wanted Ichigo to man up. Instead of just killing Ichigo he taught him a lesson. He taught him about himself and he taught him how to defeat him
That is not the act of a being who wants to rest control

He is a tool, and he wanted his King to use him. His king who was afraid of him. If he's afraid of you, he can't properly use you. That was Ogichi's beef.

Hichigo didn't teach him the lesson. Ichigo learned the lesson before it was too late.

Hichigo/Ogihci seeks to become the dominate being in the Ichigo/Zangetsu/hollow trinity. He explains that in chapter 218. He's already become dominate over the old man (which is why Zangetsu no longer appears) and seeks to do the same to Ichigo. Gotta agree w/ Langus and MidnightViper on this one. I think the the hollow is still a threat. He made it pretty clear that he planned to challenge Ichigo again.

Only I don't the opportunity for the hollow coming back necessarily deals with Ichigo's physical condition... at least not anymore. Rather it's a matter of willpower. If Ichigo's will to fight slackens any, the hollow could re-emerge.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Hichigo didn't teach him the lesson. Ichigo learned the lesson before it was too late.

Yeah he learned the lesson the hollow taught him.

221

"FIGHT!"

Instead of killing Ichigo, in a last-ditch effort...Ogichi takes the form of Kenpachi. It was then that Ichigo got the message, the hollow had been trying to give him an won.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Hichigo/Ogihci seeks to become the dominate being in the Ichigo/Zangetsu/hollow trinity. He explains that in chapter 218. He's already become dominate over the old man (which is why Zangetsu no longer appears) and seeks to do the same to Ichigo. Gotta agree w/ Langus and MidnightViper on this one. I think the the hollow is still a threat. He made it pretty clear that he planned to challenge Ichigo again.

He became dominate because, Ichigo's Hollow side was getting stronger.


The Hollow was not saying in 218 he seeks to be the dominate being in the Ichigo/Zangetsu/hollow trinity. He was complaining that the guy who was,wasn't dominate enough.

In 218 he explains the reason for his being there. He also begins the lesson he set for Ichigo.

To explain why he was dominate, he said.

"I am not sure you were aware of it. Originally Zangetsu and I were one. He and I are the source of your powers. When life rules the body is wrapped in flesh, when death rules it becomes wrapped in bone..."

When the the servant and master exchange roles their forms change...It's the same logic" ~Ogichi

Ichigo only subjugated the shinigami side of his powers. Not his hollow powers. The more he was afraid of it, the more he lost the power to resist or control it. Since he was sure he would lose. So Ogichi got stronger because Death became Dominate. Unlike Zangetsu who represents life and is a different side of Ichigo. Ogichi is not and is a creature of instinct. Because that's what hollows are. Instinctively he recognized that Ichigo wasn't as strong as he was in the instinct department. He felt Ichigo would get them all killed That instinct to survive... led him to take matters in own hands.

The only thing was he was a danger to Ichigo. Because Ichigo had not yet dominated him.All throughout the Manga the Hollow has called Ichigo the king. He has referred to himself as a tool.

That was the whole purpose of the "King and Horse" horse analogy in chapter 220.

He wanted Ichigo to recognize that the only thing that separates them is instinct.
Instinct Ichigo didn't have to be the king and make him a tool. Instead he let the Hollow become the dominate one.


He wanted Ichigo to recognize his right to rule over him. Then ENFORCE that right to rule. He didn't have to explain any of this. He could have just killed him and took over then. Instead of going, "I am your tool... now figure out how to use me or I will take over because you will get us all killed the way you are"


It was man up and fight or I will take over, because I am not dying with you.
Which he says in chapter 220 as well

"I don't know about Zangetsu ...But I sure as hell won't tolerate a king who is weaker than me.Running around on my back and getting us all killed. If you're weaker than me I'll crush you "~ Ogichi

It is not that he wanted to become the dominate one. He was actually harping about the fact that Ichigo forced him to be the dominate one. Which would eventually lead to all their deaths. So he'd survive even if he survive as a hollow because the "Ocher" couldn't do so...

He didn't want sovereignty it was given to him by Ichigo's cowardice. He was forcing Ichigo to take it back or die. He was actually helping him...


In 221 he even gives Ichigo parting advice... (Does a guy who really wants to kill you, tell you how to keep him from killing you... If he really wants to kill you? I think not...)

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Only I don't the opportunity for the hollow coming back necessarily deals with Ichigo's physical condition... at least not anymore. Rather it's a matter of willpower. If Ichigo's will to fight slackens any, the hollow could re-emerge.

Vipers right...It does. He says "try not to die, before I show up again" (above)

So I am assuming he has to be near near near death for him to take over (not show up) since near death didn't bring him out...

[bleachnut]

Originally Posted by Scarlett_Rain55

Awww, just admit it Warchef. You just want Ishida to rescue her so she doesn't get anymore scenes with Ichigo right? And then Orihime will realize that Ishida has been there all along and fall in love with him while totally forgeting her love for Ichigo whom has saved her countless times! All IchiRuki fans probably want that to happen right now, it's normal. I was like that with Renji and Rukia too! I could care less about Renji, I just want him to get Rukia away from Ichigo! Hmmm maybe Renji will help Rukia in her little battle too?

Anyways, I think it would be better if it was Ichigo&Orihime vs Ulquiorra and Yami well because of shipping reasons(I know Im biased), and becaue Orihime said she would be fighting right beside Ichigo or not looking at his back in the future. Wouldn't it be great character development too, if she lived up to her promise?

Though I hate how she just stepped out of the way again cause he asked her to. She needs to learn how to not be so obedient!

Not all IchiRuki fans are IshiHime fans. I personally have decided recently that Ishida is too good for her, and I prefer him with Nemu...so...I'm kinda hoping Inoue is killed soon.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Wow... I've never seen Ichigo so frantic and intensed before O_O

Refer back to Ichigo & Ulq's first meeting in HM, when Ichigo felt Rukia's reiatsu drop. He was pretty frantic and intense then too, also when GJ punched Rukia full of holes, and when he was about to cero her head. Ichigo was JUST as frantic and intense at those times, if not more than now.

[pchan712]

Originally Posted by bleachnut

Not all IchiRuki fans are IshiHime fans. I personally have decided recently that Ishida is too good for her, and I prefer him with Nemu...so...I'm kinda hoping Inoue is killed soon.

Noooooooooooooooooo!
It's gotta be Ichihime!
She loves him so much and she's soooooo cute and deserving!

[pchan712]

Back to the thing this thread is based on, I think Yammy just barged in so that he could join the fight, not really as if he had a purpose or anything...
I hope that he kicks those twins. They're so mean!

[bleachnut]

Originally Posted by pchan712

Noooooooooooooooooo!
It's gotta be Ichihime!
She loves him so much and she's soooooo cute and deserving!

I've written IshiHime side stories with IchiRuki, but it was recent that I became an IshiNemu fan. I loved the whole suffocation deal that she did with him in HM XD

As for the current chapter, I don't know what's going to happen, but I too would like it if Inoue finally died. I'm sick of her altogether. Then Hanatarou could be stationed in Karakura Town as the crew healer!

[Kakashi]

If Orihime or any of his friends died it would just prove that Ichigo was right all along in that his friends are not capable of taking care of themselves. I guess she could sacrifice herself or something...but that seems too melodramatic for Bleach.

[bleachnut]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

If Orihime or any of his friends died it would just prove that Ichigo was right all along in that his friends are not capable of taking care of themselves. I guess she could sacrifice herself or something...but that seems too melodramatic for Bleach.

Wait...how does Inoue dying reflect Rukia's, Sado's, Renji's, or Ishida's ability to take care of themselves? Just because ONE is weak, doesn't mean the rest are as well. In fact, I'd argue that everyone EXCEPT Inoue has gotten a power up in the HM arc due to being on the brink of death. Urahara told Ichigo a long time ago, that being near death is the quickest way to increase your reiatsu...which was why he had Ururu attack Ichi for the first lesson.

[Endrance]

if yammi busted in just to join the fight he really is as stupid as i thought unless hes gonna fight orihime which he might actually not die immediately like he would against ichi

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by bleachnut

Wait...how does Inoue dying reflect Rukia's, Sado's, Renji's, or Ishida's ability to take care of themselves? Just because ONE is weak, doesn't mean the rest are as well. In fact, I'd argue that everyone EXCEPT Inoue has gotten a power up in the HM arc due to being on the brink of death. Urahara told Ichigo a long time ago, that being near death is the quickest way to increase your reiatsu...which was why he had Ururu attack Ichi for the first lesson.

It's virtually impossible for Orihime, or any of Ichigo's friends for that matter, to die. The main theme within Ichgio's character development is his being able to overcome his guilt over his mother's death and not trying to assume sole responsibility for the safety of everyone he knows. We've even seen his friends try to literally pound that message into his head. Before they split up in this arc you could see he was having trouble letting Rukia go by herself, Rukia herself had to tell him to let go. He's way too sensitive over the issue to brush it off as, 'oh Orihime was a bad egg, the others will be fine'. If Orihime were to die, then he would be back at square one again, and all the character growth Kubo has given to Ichigo up to this point will have been for nothing.

[Sabaku Kyu]

@hakisak

That Kenpachi wasn't Ichigo's hollow in another form. He was part of a dream sequence that represented Ichigo's own instincts to fight. Notice the shock expression on Ogichi face when Ichigo started overcome his power, it's obvious he wasn't expecting it.

The hollow wasn't trying to teach Ichigo so he'd overcome him, he was telling him why he was going to lose. He was boasting (which is a common trait in villains) and was sure Ichigo would lose because he lacked battle instinct, but Ichigo's battle instincts kicked in at the last second.

And him giving the advice to Ichigo means nothing. Kenpachi gave advice to Ichigo when they fought. Giving to warning to your opponent doesn't mean you're trying to be friends.

But whatever you argue about the hollow's motives it doesn't change the fact he said himself that he would return and he didn't say it would be with Ichigo's permission. I don't know if he'll emerge during the battle with Ulq, but in any case, I wouldn't argue that Ichigo's problems with the hollow are over for good.

Originally Posted by bleachnut

Wait...how does Inoue dying reflect Rukia's, Sado's, Renji's, or Ishida's ability to take care of themselves? Just because ONE is weak, doesn't mean the rest are as well. In fact, I'd argue that everyone EXCEPT Inoue has gotten a power up in the HM arc due to being on the brink of death. Urahara told Ichigo a long time ago, that being near death is the quickest way to increase your reiatsu...which was why he had Ururu attack Ichi for the first lesson.

I think the concept was supposed to be that reiatsu levels raise when the body is danger (like adrenaline) not that being on the brink of death gives you a power-up...


Anyways, since Yammi finally given some screen time. Is it too much to hope that Wonderweiss makes an appearance? I'd really like to see him face Bya just to see his reaction to WW's weirdness.

[Freya]

Man dam...if I was Ichigo I would just make a contract with Hichigo.

"hey for fighting guys I'll let you out and own them lol. Afterwards, I'll come back."

I want Hichigo to actually come back...and fight someone SUPER strong but actually gets owned and stuff. THen Ichigo and Hichigo actually has to work together to win.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Er...care to elaborate on this one Langus?

Nope

Everyone else is doing a decent job of it. No need to flog the dead horse any more.

[MAQI]

Originally Posted by Freya

Man dam...if I was Ichigo I would just make a contract with Hichigo.

"hey for fighting guys I'll let you out and own them lol. Afterwards, I'll come back."

I want Hichigo to actually come back...and fight someone SUPER strong but actually gets owned and stuff. THen Ichigo and Hichigo actually has to work together to win.

They work together all the time. Whenever Ichigo puts his mask on, they are working together.

One another note, I wish Inoue would develope an inside hollow so she could become more badass, but Kubo Tite insists on keeping her the way she is, and does not build her character up. I mean, shit man! Why create a sidekick protagonist that you make people hate to the degree that they post in (the wrong) threads how much they want her dead!!!

I like Orihime, I think she and Ichigo belong together, but you don't see me posting my opinion on that here (or really anywhere else anymore). I hate how Kubo Tite is putting her in the story and not developing her character at all, just her powers.

Something else I don't like is that people bring their shipper propaganda to the "MANGA CHAPTER" thread and piss me off on sunday! Some of you are my friends and some of you I don't know or like, but please for the sake of people like me who don't want to read it, keep your shipper stuff on the shipper threads or in PMs. Next time I'll call you out by name.

[Freya]

Shipping....eh. Haven't heard any of that in awhile in Bleach. Gj to Kubo not making anything happen lol.

Kubo needs to do some dramatic stuff though.

[bleachnut]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

@hakisak

That Kenpachi wasn't Ichigo's hollow in another form. He was part of a dream sequence that represented Ichigo's own instincts to fight. Notice the shock expression on Ogichi face when Ichigo started overcome his power, it's obvious he wasn't expecting it.

The hollow wasn't trying to teach Ichigo so he'd overcome him, he was telling him why he was going to lose. He was boasting (which is a common trait in villains) and was sure Ichigo would lose because he lacked battle instinct, but Ichigo's battle instincts kicked in at the last second.

And him giving the advice to Ichigo means nothing. Kenpachi gave advice to Ichigo when they fought. Giving to warning to your opponent doesn't mean you're trying to be friends.

But whatever you argue about the hollow's motives it doesn't change the fact he said himself that he would return and he didn't say it would be with Ichigo's permission. I don't know if he'll emerge during the battle with Ulq, but in any case, I wouldn't argue that Ichigo's problems with the hollow are over for good.



I think the concept was supposed to be that reiatsu levels raise when the body is danger (like adrenaline) not that being on the brink of death gives you a power-up...


Anyways, since Yammi finally given some screen time. Is it too much to hope that Wonderweiss makes an appearance? I'd really like to see him face Bya just to see his reaction to WW's weirdness.

I don't doubt that it would raise in both situations, but the way it was worded made it sound like the more your life is in danger, the more your reiatsu increases. It isn't only during battle, but to sustain your life and grow stronger.

I also wonder what #10 espada's role will be. You'd think he'd be scared to death seeing as how he's weaker than 5-9 which have been defeated.

[mtarzaim]

Originally Posted by bleachnut

...

I also wonder what #10 espada's role will be. You'd think he'd be scared to death seeing as how he's weaker than 5-9 which have been defeated.

Maybe KT wanted to boost the number of Hentai doujins about bleach.
You know : 3 guys, 3 gals, lots of possibilities ...

More seriously, I think it's Ulquiorra who called Yammi to "add some spices".
Remember he wants to push Ichigo to his limits, and then prove it changes nothing (heart doesn't exist or something like that).
So Yammi will "lent a hand" to loli and menoli, just to piss Ichigo to the extreme.

It might be a good opportunity to see again Hichigo.
IMO, as soon as Ichigo's way (protect everyone with love) becomes Hichigo's way (protect everyone with hate), Hichigo would surely emerge.

The true question is : will KT really tell what happens next, or will he switch back to Aizen & co for ... a few chapter ?

PS : Do we know what happened to Wonderwise (or whatever his name was) ? He's not on Tousen's side. Maybe he's still wandering in HM, and he will fight the remains of Ichi-team ?..