2008-03-05, 20:49 | Link #521 | ||
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How long has religion been around? People naturally bought into it because they didn't know any better. You are right that it is the same for all of those scientific discoveries. However, today you can't argue that we do know, or at least think we know, a lot more and have better reasoning skills. Comparing science to religion, for me seems a little strange. Your argument makes sense, but to me feels like apples and oranges. Perhaps it's just today's society that is an influence, built off of religion from before. So annoying to know that I, technically speaking, acknowledge part of the bible due to the fact that people have learned to accept it. Powerful stuff. No arguing who's affected or not affected. Everybody is, arguing that is going to go nowhere. Quote:
~ Also, it would seem extremely weird to think how different my life and myself would be if my parents actually cared about religion. Vice versa is applicable too. I wonder if I would actually believe that stuff they try to feed into your mind and take the bible extremely seriously. Things like that. Destroying religion will probably only occur once humans are off the face of the Earth. Religion began with ancestors, who are related to people of today, thus a connection between that. |
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2008-03-05, 21:12 | Link #522 | |||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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I can understand your frustrations with the common person's interpretation of religion. The common person takes what is spoon-fed to them from their local religious authority and doesn't think on it much - at least, this is the sense that I get. Yet if you delve into the religion yourself you'll find that it can be interpreted quite differently from the norm. This doesn't make it any more justifiable, but it may help you to overcome your resentment of religion that seems to be stemming from the fact that people are mindlessly just passing on a message. Quote:
It is built into the human brain - there is a region that stimulates religious notions. This region becomes active when people undergo trances during religious ceremonies, and when stimulated by impulses the religious begin to see Jesus or other religious symbols while the non-religious report feeling like there is a greater presence around them. Does this explain away religion or religious sightings? No, it doesn't. While one could argue that this is the source of religious notions and that everything was nothing more than a figment of the imagination, one could also argue that it only makes sense for the Creator of humanity to have put in a special region so that He could contact us. Is that ridiculous? If you think it is, perhaps you've bought into the notion that God is essentially magic. What if God weren't magic - what if God can't materialize out of thin air? However, if God could stimulate a part of your brain and appear to you in a vision, that certainly seems rather practical. I don't particularly believe that, but I think it's an interesting notion. It also shows how nothing is particularly definite in this area.
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2008-03-05, 21:49 | Link #523 | |||||||
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However, with no proof of that, I didn't really mean to say "reasoning skills". I mixed it up with conclusions that we draw since we now have more to draw from. Sorry that's my bad of not straightening out my thoughts. Haxing a mix of ignorant, those who just don't get it, and intellectuals is more like it. Ignorance is easily corrected, stupidity is not as you know. I am not sure if it was any different, who knows what happened back than. Nothing here than, just running into a brick wall for this idea. Quote:
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Religion makes sense because it was made to make sense. Who on Earth would believe something they just hear? The ignorant. Even today we choose to connect those dots because people will generally have some knowledge of the bible and god and all that. It's implanted into every single person's brain as of now, nothing can possibly said to disprove this. There will always be a LINK somewhere to something RELIGIOUS because we are BUILT AROUND religion, therefore it is only logical we would have RELIGIOUS things around a place BUILT AROUND religion. What a major restate, anyways... Quote:
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2008-03-06, 06:23 | Link #525 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Ah, the good old god debate. How I missed thee.
I'm technically agnostic because it's impossible to disprove god (or more generally spiritualism), but I lean strongly towards atheism because frankly religion itself seems kind of stupid. Er... I typed all these paragraphs out but then deleted them because they seemed too aggressive. I guess I really can't talk about religion without trying to insult it. The kindest thing I can say about it is that it's unnecessary. The only nook it seems to have is to explain things that science hasn't managed to figure out yet, and even then its explanation aren't particularly useful or insightful. Sure, it's possible and people will always cling to that possibility but there's still no actual reason to believe it in the first place. No reliable evidence of any kind, etc etc. I do wonder if a society unexposed to religion yet having access to the scientific method would create God. That's a very interesting question. I'm leaning towards no. Personally, I was brought up without religion (not indoctrinated in atheism, it just wasn't mentioned) and from my perspective the whole thing just looks crazy. It just makes no sense. Of course, I was brought up in a society that had religion, and I became aware of its existence at an early age, so I'm not exactly a control subject. Unfortunately the actual experiment itself would be pretty undoable, for ethical reasons as well as financial ones. And of course it would take many generations to generate results. |
2008-03-06, 08:31 | Link #526 | |
Gregory House
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Hypothesis have to be contrasted with facts. Tested. God can't be tested. Thus, God doesn't exist until we can test its existence. Likewise, white crows don't exist until I see proof of them (the "white crow" example has been used a lot in my epistemology classes (and no, no talking about albino crows please, it's just a silly example )).
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2008-03-06, 10:26 | Link #527 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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The usual example is the "orbiting teapot" theory. Hypothesize a teapot orbiting the solar system opposite the Sun from Earth at the same orbit.
I'll contest with WK to the point that the existence of God can be a hypothesis. You don't need *proof* -- you test for *failure*. Any remarks I make after that are likely to sound like the epistemology noises from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
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2008-03-06, 13:07 | Link #528 | |||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Neuroscientists and evolutionary biologists. It's possible, but unlikely. When we look at major structural changes in the brain along the line of humans and human ancestors we're examining time on the scale of tens of thousands of years, at least (going by memory; feel free to verify and get the correct numbers). If we're discussing the difference between when religion as we know it formed and now, you're looking at a bit over 2,000 years. It's an incredibly long time to be sure, but from an evoltionary standpoint it's a drop in the bucket.
Here's a question for you: who's to say that the human brain hasn't regressed? Human society did something interesting in that it removed traditional evolutionary pressures. As a result we now have dogs that are the size of your palm, cows that are essentially walking meat bags, and a host of other life that wouldn't survive outside of human society for very long. Human society has introduced its own selection pressures on these life forms. Evolution isn't about what's better, it's about what reproduces more and spreads its genetics farther into time. Smarter humans came about and dominated because intelligence allowed us to have better rates of survival (and allowed us to dominate/wipe out other species - otherwise known as the competition). Then what? Better brain development doesn't just come about with each generation. Does society value intelligent people? Do intelligent people have more children than other people? Or are people like Britney Spears (no particular offense to her but she's been plastered all over tabloids recently) the idols of society, the aspiration of what most women want to be and what most men want to reproduce with? If that's the case and it stays that way for generations you may notice a trend toward physical features, but not much more. And in today's society where appearence doesn't necessarily reflect genetics, even that's a hard point to make. Another important point is that brain development alone doesn't equate with reasoning abilities. It seems that it may be partly cultural as well. There was an interesting study performed where children from America and children from Africa or some Middle Eastern nation (can't remember but can find it if anyone's interested) were asked to sort objects in a hierarchy. The sorting methods were completely different, and initially people said that these American Caucasian children were superior, as they were sorting in a way that made sense to the American scientists running the study. The interesting part is that when the African children were told to sort the objects as if they were a foolish person, they sorted in the way that the American children did. Ah, relativity. Quote:
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As Vexx pointed out it isn't the ignorant who believe this. Some people are indoctrinated into it. If you're born and grow up with religion always being there that doesn't make you ignorant. If you find some of the ideas interesting and even find them feasible it doesn't make you ignorant. Thentus you have admitted to not knowing religion much beyond what the stereotypical Church-goer follows, but there are more religions than that and there is more even to the major organized religions than that. Look into it and see for yourself. Read the actual documents, read various interpretations, and talk with different people about it. If you're going to maintain that religion was created by people in the past to control others or take advantage of them, though, then save yourself the time and don't bother. If you have a solidified conclusion you will not be open to understanding anything that goes outside of that. Quote:
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2008-03-06 at 15:44. |
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2008-03-06, 18:19 | Link #529 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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One can't argue against the fact that there is no credible evidence that God ever existed. Anything which lacks credible evidence of existing is just a product of people's over-active imagination. As Wanderingknight has already stated, white crows don't exist until there is proof of them - it's the same situation with this so-called "God". If you're going to say that God exists until someone proves he doesn't exist, then we might as well all believe that anime characters exist in real life. And they're just hidden somewhere on this planet, so there's just no proof YET that they exist in real life.
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Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2008-03-06 at 19:19. |
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2008-03-06, 18:49 | Link #530 | |
Gregory House
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2008-03-06, 19:45 | Link #531 | |||
Love Yourself
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Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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My main message here is that you can't say whether God exists or not. If you choose to believe that God doesn't exist, you're choosing to do so without evidence to disprove God. If you choose to believe that God exists, you are doing so without or with scant evidence to prove God's existence. Quote:
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2008-03-06, 20:31 | Link #532 | |||
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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Because you believe in God. Kind of reminds me of the argument I had with a catholic nun sometime ago in my office. Nun: "Without God you are nothing, all your possessions have been given to you by Him." Me: "Oh, I'm not at all surprised to hear that from someone brainwashed in a monastery." Quote:
You said it yourself there were historical accounts of "miracles" and miracles as Wikipedia defines: "Miracle is the action of a supernatural being" Which in itself is highly fallible proof because the existence of Supernatural beings themselves isn't proven yet. Believing in a miracle just because you've read it happened somewhere? or because someone told you so? Miracle = not credible evidence Quote:
Not being here on this planet (lacking credible historical data of actual existance) is enough to disprove the existence of any supernatural or fictional being - God included.
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Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2008-03-06 at 21:24. |
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2008-03-06, 22:08 | Link #533 | |
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Liddo, I agree with you. Sorry that's all I can say right now, short on time. |
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2008-03-06, 23:12 | Link #534 | |
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 31
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So instead of becoming a believer or an atheist, be an agnostic, at least for a very little while. (That was partially untrue, but w/e ) His other point seems to be that what being perceived as rational nowadays does not completely mean that it's rational, much like rationalism in the past =/= rationalism for today. Even if that's a bit far-fetched, and that using the scientific methods developed nowadays are fundamental (and a lot more rational), it seems there are many ways to become a skeptic. Personally, I merely see it as, generally, the people of the past were on the far end of superstition, and people nowadays are on the far end of skepticism. In any case I don't think he intended to call you a fool either. Of course, I'm not perfectly sure I interpreted Ledgem correctly, so I'll take back anything he didn't mean to say (I just hope I wasn't completely off, though; this post will be useless otherwise. )
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Last edited by teachopvutru; 2008-03-06 at 23:22. |
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2008-03-06, 23:43 | Link #535 | ||||||
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I am not trying to make anyone believe in God. I simply do not appreciate the haughty attitude of Athiests who feel that they are better than "people who believe in fairytales" and base their superiority on the belief that they are following reasoning, logic, and evidence. They are doing nothing of the sort and that is an outright lie. As I mentioned before, just as there is no evidence that God does exist there is no evidence that God doesn't exist. If you say that God doesn't exist and you are 100% sure of your belief, you are doing the exact same thing that a Christian who is 100% sure of God's existence is doing. Quote:
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2008-03-07, 01:24 | Link #537 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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About atheists vs theists:
It depends on what you believe. Sure, "there is no god" is no more rational than "there is a god". But it's much more so than "Through the power of prayer, you can cure cancer", or "there is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god". |
2008-03-07, 03:30 | Link #538 | |
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 31
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Wherever that line of "excess" may be is subjective, though... However, that's probably why many people jump ship to atheists. Those claims most likely aren't true, people's lives (some) are better, and they are more knowledgable; I'm also not so sure how many people actually still believe them. That's not to imply whether or not God does exist, though.
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Last edited by teachopvutru; 2008-03-07 at 03:41. |
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2008-03-07, 03:39 | Link #539 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Well, it's relevant to note that just because there could be a god doesn't mean that it's a 50-50 chance or anything like that. Thinking rationally, the likelihood of there being a god is really, really, extraordinarily low compared to the likelihood of there being no god, based on current evidence.
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2008-03-07, 03:46 | Link #540 | |
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 31
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I also wonder how well science and religion match each other, actually. But meh, if God exists, I demand him/her/it/[w/e-pronoun] to reveal his/her/its/[w/e pronoun] existence. I wish God doesn't exist, though.
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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