News Stories

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Mentar

For some reason the reaction of the American public is very blasé about it: The majority of the conservative half says it's necessary for the perpetual War on Terror, and a disturbing part of the liberal half says "Hey, everyone does it. We're just better than the rest."

i think the US public is too blase about this too but you europeans are too naive if you don't think your government spies on Allies and their own people as well.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

i think the US public is to oblase about this too but you europeans are too naive if you don't think your government spies on Allies and their own people as well.

The difference being that if such spying ever becomes public knowledge they will burn at the stake whoever is responsible and you can be sure as hell such espionage is not being used in court as proof to jail their citizens. The devil is in the details.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

The difference being that if such spying ever becomes public knowledge they will burn at the stake whoever is responsible and you can be sure as hell such espionage is not being used in court as proof to jail their citizens. The devil is in the details.

i don't see any fires burning in Britain and the British intelligence service is up to their eyeball in this stuff.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

i don't see any fires burning in Britain and the British intelligence service is up to their eyeball in this stuff.

Britain has always been an empire, even in the XXI century they do not have full free speech

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

i think the US public is too blase about this too but you europeans are too naive if you don't think your government spies on Allies and their own people as well.

First of all, I know enough Brits who would be very offended to be called "Europeans". Let's for the sake of argument go with "Continental Europeans", then.

Xellos: The question is the EXTENT of the snooping. I can positively assure you that there is no NSA-like Stasi Overload installation which would give George Orwell wet dreams in Germany, for example. If anything like that happened, it would cause a government-toppling scandal. I can also positively assure that no German chancellor would order the BND to bug Obama's mobile.

Ah well, the "Land of the Free", the "Protector of Liberty". Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi, hm?

[willx]

Originally Posted by Mentar

First of all, I know enough Brits who would be very offended to be called "Europeans". Let's for the sake of argument go with "Continental Europeans", then.

Xellos: The question is the EXTENT of the snooping. I can positively assure you that there is no NSA-like Stasi Overload installation which would give George Orwell wet dreams in Germany, for example. If anything like that happened, it would cause a government-toppling scandal. I can also positively assure that no German chancellor would order the BND to bug Obama's mobile.

Ah well, the "Land of the Free", the "Protector of Liberty". Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi, hm?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by willx

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." Batô in GITS (1995)

[willx]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." Batô in GITS (1995)

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

It is hard to know when someone behind you is a police, a prankster or mobster.

When was the last time a prankster (mobster? lol?) pranked you with a police car with lights and siren on, and likely with shouts like “Police! Drop your weapon!”?

Yea, didn’t think so.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I would tell them that in the USA a police can kill you if you are holding a toy gun

And I would tell you that you’re insane if you believe so.

if he can play with a toy gun he should understand what getting shot means. Think for a moment the implications of this incident, if the policeman is not charged on anything they have declared open season on killing the kids of any minorities, they just need to be holding a toy gun and yell "drop the weapon" "what weapon? this is a ..." *bang*

I like how you inserted “minorities” in there as if that had anything to do with it

In case you didn’t know, toy guns are required to have bright orange plastic tip so they can be readily identified as toys. The AK replica the teen was holding in this case had no such thing, which means there was no way for the police to tell that it’s not a real weapon.

Imagine you’re the police officer, you see a person walking down the street carrying what looks like a loaded AK, and when you ordered him to drop the weapon, he turns around while pointing the rifle at you. The last thing you’d be thinking would be “oh, it must be a toy gun”.

It is a terrible tragedy? Yes. Are the officers involved at fault here if everything went the way they said it did? No. The kid was being dumb, which is what kids do, but when you’re being dumb with weapons or replicas that are indistinguishable from the real thing, the consequences can be heavy.

Would you walk down the street carrying a replica sword, and when ordered to stop by the police, swing the sword at them to show them that it’s just a replica without sharp edges?

[SeijiSensei]

Japan says exports almost flat as shipments to Asia slow down

I wondered why the Asian stock funds in my retirement portfolio took a plunge yesterday. Now I know why. What's worse is that I just chose to buy back into these funds after cashing out in fear of a US debt default. Bad timing, but I have a longer-term perspective. It looks like at least the Nikkei recovered some today.

A lengthier story I read elsewhere said that all the major Asian trading partners including China and Taiwan were experiencing slower growth. When the Japanese data showed their Asian exports had taken a substantial hit in September, the report had ripple effects in other markets. Taiwan's figures for Asian exports were not great either.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I would tell them that in the USA a police can kill you if you are holding a toy gun, if he can play with a toy gun he should understand what getting shot means. Think for a moment the implications of this incident, if the policeman is not charged on anything they have declared open season on killing the kids of any minorities, they just need to be holding a toy gun and yell "drop the weapon" "what weapon? this is a ..." *bang*

here is toy gun in question.

it is a tragedy but preventable if the kid would 1 drop the thing when cops told him to or had it in a bag.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I can positively assure...

Let's be real here, you can positively assure no one about nothing here on German Intelligence activities.

Unless you actually have the kind of very high security clearance to know about those kind of things, but then those people tend to not go on the internet to confirm or deny what is it they do or don't do.

[SeijiSensei]

Frequently Asked Questions about Surveilling Allies

Q: Why bug the phone of an ally?

A: Even a close ally like Merkel doesn't share everything with the Americans, but decisions she makes can have a major impact on U.S. foreign, defense and economic policy overseas. Merkel's center-right Christian Democratic party just won an election, and she is in the process of wooing other German political parties to form a coalition government. The party she chooses could pull her political policies in a different direction, in terms of counterterrorism cooperation with the U.S., for instance, or perhaps the new coalition might chill Merkel's support of the NATO mission in Afghanistan.

Q: Do other countries spy like this on the United States?

A: They do, but most don't have the U.S. technology or financial resources — $10.8 billion for fiscal 2013, according to a budget document Snowden leaked. The NSA is rivaled only by Britain's code-breaking Government Communications Headquarters or GCHQ, an agency the U.S. works with closely, according to the Snowden documents. U.S. ally Israel is considered one of the top counterintelligence threats. U.S. spies and diplomats who work in Israel expect to have phone calls intercepted, and their intelligence work disrupted. Israeli security services are even suspected of breaking into the homes of the successive CIA station chiefs and tampering with sensitive equipment.

Also see: Anger Growing Among Allies Over U.S. Surveillance

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by kyp275

When was the last time a prankster (mobster? lol?) pranked you with a police car with lights and siren on, and likely with shouts like “Police! Drop your weapon!”?

In all my years of living I had never been in such a situation so if I was in such a situation I am too old to try something suspicious, but would not rule out it to be a joke in poor taste or that the police are not what they say they are/have an ulterior motive, glad you asked.

And I would tell you that you’re insane if you believe so.

This attitude is what make me worry, questioning law enforcement agencies has become unpatriotic in the USA, if the Rodney king beating happened today most people like you would jump to defend the aggressors and you are not alone.

I like how you inserted “minorities” in there as if that had anything to do with it

It has everything to do, but you want to roll it under the carpet due to fear.

In case you didn’t know, toy guns are required to have bright orange plastic tip

and cheap toy have it painted it over and falls of over time or it was another case where authorities just turn a blind eye and lethal force was applied hastily causing a tragedy over a freaking toy in the best case scenario.

Imagine you’re the police officer, you see a person walking down the street carrying what looks like a loaded AK, and when you ordered him to drop the weapon, he turns around while pointing the rifle at you. The last thing you’d be thinking would be “oh, it must be a toy gun”.

But said person was KID and kids do play with toy guns and there was nothing in the scene that made them think otherwise or you would have already said so.

It is a terrible tragedy? Yes. Are the officers involved at fault here if everything went the way they said it did? No. The kid was being dumb, which is what kids do, but when you’re being dumb with weapons or replicas that are indistinguishable from the real thing, the consequences can be heavy.

This kind of statement I would expect from a Russian citizen back in the days of the USSR, not from a citizen from "the land of freedom".

Would you walk down the street carrying a replica sword, and when ordered to stop by the police, swing the sword at them to show them that it’s just a replica without sharp edges?

When did the kid waved the weapon? he just turned around and it was over, don't make things up

[Anh_Minh]

You don't seem to be able to put yourself in the shoes of those police officers. You act like they knew in advance that those were just toys and shot just for the hell of it.

Kids play with toys? In the US, they also have access to real weapons. He didn't swing it? Maybe not, but he happened to bring the line of fire closer to the cops.

I believe police officers in other countries aren't as trigger happy as the ones in the US. But I also believe American officers have their reasons for paranoia.

[Zakoo]

Isn't the best course of action in those cases to wait for all things to calm down instead of arguing on, emotional, baseless, sometime false informations?

I never dug too deeply in US judicial system, but there should be an investigation to judge things? Maybe arguing on the results of the enquiry is better than wasting O2 and sugar on hot news.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You don't seem to be able to put yourself in the shoes of those police officers. You act like they knew in advance that those were just toys and shot just for the hell of it.

Let me tell you what I know because I live in a country where drug cartels do wave ak47s in the street. If you are a police officer with a hand gun and encounter a guy with an automatic rifle clearly visible in broad daylight, you do NOT engage them, this is real life not a ****ing western, police officers do not act like Bruce Willis in Die Hard, they call for backup with heavy weapons, otherwise you will be outgunned and killed in seconds because these guys are the biggest cowards there are so you can be sure as hell they are NOT alone, if the police is lucky and guns one down there will be others nearby that will fill them with holes in no time, that is the whole point of waving the ak47 in broad light, if they do is because they own the street through absolute weapon superiority, not because they are brave.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

In all my years of living I had never been in such a situation so if I was in such a situation I am too old to try something suspicious, but would not rule out it to be a joke in poor taste or that the police are not what they say they are/have an ulterior motive, glad you asked.

Yea, I'm sure you just have a bunch of friends just itching to commit a bunch of felonies just to play a prank on you

This attitude is what make me worry, questioning law enforcement agencies has become unpatriotic in the USA, if the Rodney king beating happened today most people like you would jump to defend the aggressors and you are not alone.

Way to put words in my mouth. How you got that from me disagreeing with your outlandish and factually incorrect claim that "in the USA a police can kill you if you are holding a toy gun" I will never know.

It has everything to do, but you want to roll it under the carpet due to fear.

Please enlighten me, I'm sure you're just brimming with facts to support your claims, like all your other claims

Oh and btw, I'm a minority.

and cheap toy have it painted it over and falls of over time or it was another case where authorities just turn a blind eye and lethal force was applied hastily causing a tragedy over a freaking toy in the best case scenario.

Painting it over is both ILLEGAL and stupid, and waving one that has it "fallen off" outside is also stupid.

But said person was KID and kids do play with toy guns and there was nothing in the scene that made them think otherwise or you would have already said so.

Did you even read the report? the kid was wearing a hoodie walking down the street, holding the replica in his hand. As the replica is one of a loaded rifle without slings, This would be considered brandishing (already illegal) in most states, much less an anti-gun one like California. BTW, do I need to remind you how young some of the cartel killers and gang members are?

And for the last time, the default assumption here is not that it's a toy gun, but that it's a real gun, because of the lack of the identifying orange tip.

This kind of statement I would expect from a Russian citizen back in the days of the USSR, not from a citizen from "the land of freedom".

I'd say that's the kind of statement you'd expect from someone with any shred of commonsense. It doesn't matter what country or what era, it's a terrible idea to point a firearm, replica or not, at any official.

When did the kid waved the weapon? he just turned around and it was over, don't make things up

According to the official report, he pointed the replica at the officers as he turned around. Given what you've posted so far, I'm pretty certain the importance of that would be lost on you, but pointing a firearm is about as bad as it gets without you actually firing it, intentional or not. We call it "flagging" in the military, it's is the equivalence of holding a knife to one's throat.

Originally Posted by Zakoo

I never dug too deeply in US judicial system, but there should be an investigation to judge things? Maybe arguing on the results of the enquiry is better than wasting O2 and sugar on hot news.

The investigation is ongoing, but don't tell mangamuscle that.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Let me tell you what I know because I live in a country where drug cartels do wave ak47s in the street...

Santa Rosa is not Mexico.

[TooPurePureBoy]

The problem as I see it, is that police aren't trained to value the life of a citizen (who is supposed to be presumed innocent) as much as they value the life of themselves and their fellow union brothers.

Asking someone to value the life of someone else over their own is a tough thing almost impossible thing to ask another human. That's why being a police officer should be a calling to serving a higher purpose rather than the place former high-school bullies/jocks end up getting a job after taking a couple years of criminal justice education in a local community college.

Police now-a-days are walking around like soldiers in enemy territory. This whole scenario should never have happened, but the problem is we are all walking around afraid of each other instead of assuming innocence.

In my highly naive and utopian outlook this is the way police and society should handle the situation.

"Oh look, a kid playing with guns. Ha reminds me of when I was a kid lol".

Cop keeps driving.

No tragedy.

If it turns out the kid was some lunatic youth bent on going on a killing spree then you know what the reaction should be?

"Holy shit! Who the fuck let that kid get a real gun??! Lets investigate that. Lets figure out a way to provide less easy access to guns to unsupervised children. This is not acceptable."

Mob cries "Who can we blame!!??"

Every person with a brain answers. "Nobody you fool who lets fear rule your brain. This is what we call a tragedy. No one needs to answer for the arbitrary tragedy of life. Lets see what we can do to stop people from growing up in our society thinking this was a valid course of action. Lets be better at raising our children to love one another, instead of finding someone to slough all the blame on so we can stop having to think hard about a solution.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by kyp275

According to the official report, he pointed the replica at the officers as he turned around. Given what you've posted so far, I'm pretty certain the importance of that would be lost on you, but pointing a firearm is about as bad as it gets without you actually firing it, intentional or not. We call it "flagging" in the military, it's is the equivalence of holding a knife to one's throat.

Well, an anarchist can argue that the cops were the ones pointing their firearms at the teen first.