AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha/Vivid Franchise

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-01-26, 12:29   Link #18941
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 35
@Liingo: Thx. Will respond properly after sleep.

To OC in general: On the subject of the Chief, note that his physical abilities are following Halo canon (and have actually been nerfed at points), while he's a B-ranked mage. He can kill the Aces and CCs with his bare hands... but they'll be sniping away at him from range. He has a trick which TK suggested and Kagerou and I are running with - an AMF generator on his armor - but it's short range, which means that most flight-capable mages should be able to fly outta the range of the AMF and return fire safely. If they're inside the AMF... god help them.

@Tigerclaw: On the subject of cartridges; it has never been seen that cartridges are loaded more than six at one go. It's been established that it is a Very Bad Idea to spam cartridges, since it taxes the Linker Core and weakens your body, which cannot take the strain (for an extreme analogue, firing a 40mm cannon from a mount designed for a .30cal: eventually the mounting breaks). As for cartridges more powerful than the standard, my OC Franz Jaeger actually deploys with several stripper clips of Overpressure Cartridges (Lurch: "I'm still tryin' out names here.") that are twice as powerful as standard cartridges, but each time he uses an Overpressure Cartridge it wears him out severely, and he risks KOing himself at best - which is why the Overpressure Cartridges are kept as a last resort for life or death situations.

...if you thought those were bad, wait till you see the Alpha versions. *shakes head*

Lurch is the always-mentioned, rarely-seen tireless armorer who maintains the OFM's conventional weapons and tunes their Devices. It's been speculated that Lurch is the posessor of the Noble Phantasm Unlimited Cartridge Works:


I am the primer of my cartridge.
Steel is my jacket, and mana is my bullet.
I have primed over a thousand cartridges.
Unknown to jamming, nor known to misfire.
Have withstood pain to load many Devices.
Yet, these hands will never know peace.
So as I load,
Unlimited Cartridge Works.

__________________
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 12:53   Link #18942
Kyral
OC Belka Scriptor
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 37
Puuh... time for me to blow out some crack again xD

Xgouki wanted to read about it... so I came up with this little story out of my Dark Future Setting.
Sorry for the long delay.

Ah... I tried to correct my gramma myself this time... so please bear with me.


Spoiler for The Corruption:
__________________
Kyral is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 13:19   Link #18943
AdmiralTigerclaw
Sword Wielding Penguin
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Subspace, Texas
Age: 36
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralTigerclaw
Spam mode?

SPAM? If I want to spam I'll throw in a Macross Missile Massecre.

Anywho. I don't see what's so spammiful about rapid fire dumb shots asside from the fact that, well... non-magical technology can already do that a hundred times more viciously. You know?
This is what 70 fist sized depleted uranium slugs sound like when they're all fired in one second traveling at Mach 2+ past a camera... fired from a GAU-8 Avenger cannon. And what I'm suggesting has nowhere near that kill power. (GAU-8 makes rapid swiss cheese out of a tank.)

As for range... It's called BVR engagement. If forty year old pieces of missile technology can hit a target seventy miles away, and aircraft can hit targets the size of a bus that you can't even see with the naked eye anyway, why not have a magic projectile that can track and kill a target at a mere five Km? (Two miles or so.)
I mean, we can put bombs through windows at five thousand feet... A man sized target should be easy enough to track with magical sensor utilities.
If you want to call stuff like that over-cannon, I have to call serious bull on a civilization that has the technology for crossdimensional transport battlecruisers, and live image feeds as if they're six feet away, but can't make a magical projectile track and home on a target that's not even one and a half times past BVR range.

Overpowered? Try Common Sense.
Don't bring your fists to a knife fight. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Don't bring a gun to a cannon fight. Stay the heck OUT of a cannon fight.

As for Hayate doing that 'once' with the artillery bit.

Uh, that was more her doing it about ten times, firing shots of the nature of five round barrages that each hit like a small strategic nuclear weapon. And she didn't even break a sweat. Nanoha's a little white demon, but I wouldn't go against Hayate with anything less than a Los Angeles Class's full compliment of nuclear tipped trident missiles. And even then I'm likely to just piss her off.

Perhaps what we need is an actual chart or definition of exactly what each rank means in terms of power/skill.



EDIT:
@ Goose.

I find that explanation easier to understand and digest than someone just going 'it's overpowered!' with only a vague explanation as to why.

Could be worse, we could get stuck with this

Last edited by AdmiralTigerclaw; 2008-01-26 at 14:17. Reason: O_O;
AdmiralTigerclaw is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:09   Link #18944
Kagerou
"Begin, the operation!"
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Kagerou
Aha, and therein is the problem, my good Admiral.

The fact is that we have no clue what to rate stuff at. Someone tried it a long time ago (before I showed up here), but it was... well, it wasn't bad for a first try.

We need to figure out a comprehensive chart, F-SSS, but we just don't really have a good grasp of the magic system in Nanoha. If this were D&D or BESM, I'd have an excellent clue, but alas.
__________________
Kagerou - Generic Universal Rage Producing System
Kagerou is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:10   Link #18945
SpaceBrotha
Wild card
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Finland
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Spoiler for "rant:
You do realize that god just killed an entire family of catgirls because of you?

Real life physics and especially weaponry has very little to do with a magical girl show...
...and even though we already have master chief, we're still trying to make everything fit the premise of a magical world, not something with technological supermarvels... even when disguised as magic.

But even that isn't the real problem here, the real problem is that you're basically creating a character with horribly overpowered attributes when comparing to what we see in the show...

...though i can see that you overpowered the characters themselves... hayate, magically the strongest of the aces and a pure artillery mage fires shots perhaps a couple of km away, but the shots blast radius is only about 300-400 meters, as compared to a real tactical nuke, a quote from wiki: "Modern tactical nuclear warheads have yields up to the tens, or potentially hundreds of kilotons, several times that of the weapons used in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

"little boy" was dropped into Hiroshima , here's a bit of statistics from wiki "The radius of total destruction was about 1.6 km (1 mile), with resulting fires across 11.4 km² (4.4 square miles)."

so i think we all agree: hayate =/= tactical nuclear level of power, not to mention strategical nuclear level...

as for the range deficit, you must realize that magical shots must operate on vastly different set of rules than a regular ballistic projectile...
...a ballistic projectile merely needs a push right at the start and then it can be forgotten...
from all i've seen in the serie, all magical projectiles have to be SUSTAINED during flight, so distance becomes a far greater challenge, but they can control them far better...

...and being familiar to the touhou universe, i'm not touching the spam issue with a 10 foot pole

Just my five cents about the entire thing, feel free to correct anything that was wrong there.
__________________
"Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules." Unknown
"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." Norman Schwarzkopf
"Whoever stands by a just cause cannot possibly be called a terrorist." Yassar Arafat
Sayings and quotes hold wisdom in them. Either the wisdom is found in the correctness of the quote, or in the lesson learned from the error.
Hard part is figuring out who's making the errors...
SpaceBrotha is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:22   Link #18946
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Perhaps what we need is an actual chart or definition of exactly what each rank means in terms of power/skill.
The last attempt didn't turn out too well. As I recall, a good number of people complained that you'd need to reach A or over-A ranks to have attacks that barely matched modern firearms, let alone vehicle-mounted weapons. Then it rapidly escalated to strategic weapons and supernova-level destruction.
Jimmy C is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:24   Link #18947
LimitedEternal
Nuclear Fusion
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sky of stone, floor of flame.
Age: 34
SUPAAAAA BACKLOG TAIMU!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Eh? Is that...MEGAS???

*hands AdmiralTigerClaw an internet*

I think you should have one of these. NEEDS MOAR MEGAS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Hayate will have more firepower at her disposal than ANY Ace ever. Fact.
Well, she IS a walking(flying?) artillery expert. Like I like to say, glass cannon in every sense.
Quote:
... you're just setting your pilots up for "playing with balls" jokes; you do realise...

"Who're those dudes?"

"Lol, they aren't pilots, they just play with balls!"

"lulz."
...why did I see this coming? You guys and your balls. Sheesh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Burning Arisa vs. Exceed Nanoha?!?!?

FIGHT OF THE CENTURY!!!!!

And don't worry, that's more crack of mine, since Kugimiya Rie does tsunderes extremely well
EPIC BATTLE.Funny thing is, I can see it happening, if only because Alisa(Is it "Arisa" or "Alisa?") goes all angry on Nanoha. Still pure crack though, and definitely worth writing.
[/quote]
*watches Smith and Wesson dance to the tune of full auto fire*

Neil Dylandy: *sighs* No matter what I teach them, they never learn. [/quote]

Na? What's wrong with full auto? *shoves Heavy Weapons Guy behind wall*

Quote:
Originally Posted by USB500 View Post
There are more than one? Wow, this can be really interesting.

So will the interaction include lots of hotblood battles and shedding of manly tears?

Smith/Wesson: we don't really care! Girl or not, if she's hotblooded, then we're more than glad to become her friends!!!!!!
Sanshiro: *points east* THE EAST IS BURNING RED, MY STUDENTS!!!
Smith/Wesson/Akira: SHISHOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *cries hotblooded tears*

I hope this kind of interaction won't happen very soon.

Mai: .................

...................................

...................................

USB-sama.

Me:
I think my reaction is about the same as yours.

Nothing wrong with hotblooded girls, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Naomi: "I don't believe you." *tsun*
Uh-oh. She's off the handle again. *Dons HEV suit*

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Like this?

Spoiler for Something I made a few months ago:


Ah yes, i remember you posting that. Long time ago, ne? Still scares me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha View Post
What's so nasty about hayate no naku koro ni?

And Aaron will tough it out, pain and trials make growth for humans... and those two are also the easiest ways to get some emotion into a story

Though i'm sensing a whole lot of and quite a bit of coming our way...
Is that the one that involves cleavers, or boxcutters? Why must you torment poor Hayate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I'll surprise you then. ...

...as long as you don't read Rebuilt Kha's dossier first. Among his new nicknames is the Copycat Knight after all...
"Copycat" Knight? Do I sense a blue mage in Cadia's future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagerou View Post
Aha, and therein is the problem, my good Admiral.

The fact is that we have no clue what to rate stuff at. Someone tried it a long time ago (before I showed up here), but it was... well, it wasn't bad for a first try.

We need to figure out a comprehensive chart, F-SSS, but we just don't really have a good grasp of the magic system in Nanoha. If this were D&D or BESM, I'd have an excellent clue, but alas.
Amen. that would iron out so many problems with subjectivity in power(which I personally am guilty of) and we really could use something like that. Alas, I too don't have the background knowhow to do this, but is there anyone who could?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha View Post
You do realize that god just killed an entire family of catgirls because of you?

Real life physics and especially weaponry has very little to do with a magical girl show...
...and even though we already have master chief, we're still trying to make everything fit the premise of a magical world, not something with technological supermarvels... even when disguised as magic.

But even that isn't the real problem here, the real problem is that you're basically creating a character with horribly overpowered attributes when comparing to what we see in the show...

...though i can see that you overpowered the characters themselves... hayate, magically the strongest of the aces and a pure artillery mage fires shots perhaps a couple of km away, but the shots blast radius is only about 300-400 meters, as compared to a real tactical nuke, a quote from wiki: "Modern tactical nuclear warheads have yields up to the tens, or potentially hundreds of kilotons, several times that of the weapons used in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

"little boy" was dropped into Hiroshima , here's a bit of statistics from wiki "The radius of total destruction was about 1.6 km (1 mile), with resulting fires across 11.4 km² (4.4 square miles)."

so i think we all agree: hayate =/= tactical nuclear level of power, not to mention strategical nuclear level...

as for the range deficit, you must realize that magical shots must operate on vastly different set of rules than a regular ballistic projectile...
...a ballistic projectile merely needs a push right at the start and then it can be forgotten...
from all i've seen in the serie, all magical projectiles have to be SUSTAINED during flight, so distance becomes a far greater challenge, but they can control them far better...

...and being familiar to the touhou universe, i'm not touching the spam issue with a 10 foot pole

Just my five cents about the entire thing, feel free to correct anything that was wrong there.
Um. I think I'll let you vets handle this.

That point about the nuke is helpful to me though; I'm tossing around an idea that involves large scale destruction, and I needed a benchmark.

It's a benchmark so I know what not to go near, haxxbusters. I'm not trying any nukes out.
__________________
In my hands, a sun, that my path may be lit.
At my back, the sky, so I may be free to soar.
In my eyes, hell, for it is my cradle and grave.
LimitedEternal is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:52   Link #18948
AdmiralTigerclaw
Sword Wielding Penguin
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Subspace, Texas
Age: 36
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralTigerclaw
Then I guess, if that (Rank calculating) was attempted before, we'll just have to try again, and this time we won't fail.

Quantifying the ranks will be quite the challenge. One thing is that they seem to be a combination of not just pure power, but skill. As I recall, Teana's first attempt at encasing her magic bullet in a barrier ranked as an A rank skill.

So the quantifying that needs to be done is figure out what defines ranks of power, and ranks of skill, to get the estimated total power level.

Now, we've got examples of obviously Twiple S Plus Plus power coming of Dimensional Cruiser platforms. (Arc'en'ciel magic dimensional cannon.)

We've got examples of S level and SS level on Hayate

Most of the attacks from nanoha team appear to be A rank levels, with an S or SS rank tossed in for the Breakers.

B and C ranks do seem to be consistent with conventional handheld weapons in terms of power overall. I mean, scores of cannon fodder mages are using 'shot' attacks.

But again, the ranks seem to denote a combination of Skill, AND Power, and that is probably where you guys got all messed up the first time around.

You want me to head over to spacebattles.com and throw a quantifying thread up? They'll absolutely pick things apart to quantify something.
AdmiralTigerclaw is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 14:57   Link #18949
Sheba
Must Bury Qiqi
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat
Age: 41
As for the power ranks, Skane put it very well.

How would you rank your character when compared to Hayate? Nanoha and Fate? The Wolkenritters? The Strikers?

There are no need to grow an inferiority complex because your character is a mere C or D in term of magical potential.

Awesome battles found in Hunter X Hunter (Kurapika vs that brute force guy) or JoJo's Bizarre Adventures (Hayato (a mere human with no Stand) vs Killer queen Bites the Dust, Jotaro vs D'Arby, Passione Gang vs Man in the Mirror, to name a few) were not awesome because of the raw power that was displayed, but because of the creative ways they played the cards they were dealt.
Sheba is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 15:48   Link #18950
AdmiralTigerclaw
Sword Wielding Penguin
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Subspace, Texas
Age: 36
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralTigerclaw
That's just the thing about the military though. And I mean this from experience.

A military will have an inferiority complex if it has to fight a pitched battle. The objective is to have such overlapping superiority over an opponent that when the fight begins, it's over for the enemy almost immediately. No commander wants to send troops out knowing half of them will die or be seriously injured. Not if he knows he can say "Load up the GBU-87s and turn that place into a scrap yard!" and THEN send in his ground pounders.

Could just be too much military mode talking from me. But personally, I find that my number one NEED is that I must have the power to OMGWTFPWN an opponent, because it'll save lives of MY guys on the ground.

So my natural need will be to turn to a Magical Engineer in this case and tell him/her.
"I see a strategic and tactical deficiency here and here... Design me a device system that can do this, this, this, this, and this... Make it fit on a general purpose mage and give it the ability to enhance their function to this. Increase their survivability as well. Experienced veterans only come from those who actually survive their engagements."

"No, I don't care if that is technically insane to attempt with a C class mage. Don't give me excuses, give me results. If it can physically be done, do it. We'll mark the problems later as operator dos and don'ts. That's what testing is for after all. Now get moving. I want this done, and I want it done yesterday. If I lose one more good man to the enemy because you wouldn't let me give them what they needed in the field, I'll be sure to have you standing before a military tribunal faster than you can say Starlight Breaker: SHOOT! Understood?! Good. Dismissed."


Maybe I should design a grouchy commander that sounds like that too, just so we know we've got someone who will make those kind of calls. Reminds me of Regius... but Regius was a di-ERHEM... disgruntled individual caught in a conspiracy loop. Yeah, that's it.
AdmiralTigerclaw is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 16:09   Link #18951
Reiji Tabibito
The OTHER Time Lord
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The "Other" TARDIS
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
I wouldn't mind
...

...

...

Oy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryAeon View Post
@Reiji: That would be Aaron who suggested you watch Rental Magica.

Ah. Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Cheesy Announcer: But with Fate a little "tied up", even THAT is not enough. Can the Cleric rise above this dire challenge? Can he conquer his own demons and emerge victorious?

All this and more, on the next, The Cleric Forever!

*cues cheesy 1960s Batman theme*
<Sokka Forehead Slap!>

Taku...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Shamsel: Timing?
Uhh...if I have to explain it, then you wouldn't understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
Sorry, but I gotta disagree with this one - in ANY kind of fight, you're gonna want something that doesn't run out of ammunition.


Dammit, where is Aaron...?
Reiji Tabibito is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 16:16   Link #18952
SpaceBrotha
Wild card
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Finland
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Could just be too much military mode talking from me. But personally, I find that my number one NEED is that I must have the power to OMGWTFPWN an opponent, because it'll save lives of MY guys on the ground.

So my natural need will be to turn to a Magical Engineer in this case and tell him/her.
"I see a strategic and tactical deficiency here and here... Design me a device system that can do this, this, this, this, and this... Make it fit on a general purpose mage and give it the ability to enhance their function to this. Increase their survivability as well. Experienced veterans only come from those who actually survive their engagements."

"No, I don't care if that is technically insane to attempt with a C class mage. Don't give me excuses, give me results. If it can physically be done, do it. We'll mark the problems later as operator dos and don'ts. That's what testing is for after all. Now get moving. I want this done, and I want it done yesterday. If I lose one more good man to the enemy because you wouldn't let me give them what they needed in the field, I'll be sure to have you standing before a military tribunal faster than you can say Starlight Breaker: SHOOT! Understood?! Good. Dismissed."
And just like those military commanders, you also need to see that OMGWTFPWN is rarely a feasible solution... I too want to have that, great overpowering for maximum effect, but most of the time things don't turn out that well, and we have to do with what we have...

...now, asking a magical engineer to build all that is like walking to a regular engineer and ask a fully armed, mini sized mecha that any regular gunwaver in the military can use...

...he'll probably tell you that it's bloody near impossible at current to make such a thing, physically possible, technologically not yet... and probably not in several centuries for any mediocre bootstomper, those units probably need one hell of a training for people to use even mildly efficiently...

Because, fact is that just because you need something doesn't make it possible... atleast in your lifetime.

Anyways, considering that you're suggesting a C ranked mage to be pumped up to A class and shooting SS class shells, i think that the engineer wouldn't be the only one going "OY! Bloody nut!"
Remember what happened to nanoha when she overexcerted herself with too much intensive magic usage?
and she was merely using magic easily accessible to her...
...such as starlight breaker that is classified as power AAA in the manga, and using magic that's actually within her class (she was AAA during A's, wasn't she?) was enough to make her go down in the long run...

So what would happen to a soldier who's C ranked, forcefully pumped to A rank and using bloody SS power shots?
You'd be losing soldiers to your own weapons faster than the enemy could kill you.
__________________
"Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules." Unknown
"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." Norman Schwarzkopf
"Whoever stands by a just cause cannot possibly be called a terrorist." Yassar Arafat
Sayings and quotes hold wisdom in them. Either the wisdom is found in the correctness of the quote, or in the lesson learned from the error.
Hard part is figuring out who's making the errors...
SpaceBrotha is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 16:40   Link #18953
AdmiralTigerclaw
Sword Wielding Penguin
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Subspace, Texas
Age: 36
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralTigerclaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha View Post
So what would happen to a soldier who's C ranked, forcefully pumped to A rank and using bloody SS power shots?
You'd be losing soldiers to your own weapons faster than the enemy could kill you.
With a platoon, you'd have 60 temporarily A rank pumped soldiers and you'd win the fight in a very short manner with that kind of firepower. (The SS shots would be marked as an Operator Don't... unless you think it's absolutely necissary.)
Just because you CAN pump up to A and fire SS, doesn't mean you will use it. You want it available.

You win the fight quickly, power fatigue can set in. THAT, is key. You still have to manage your soldier's strength. Give them the option to use the upper level firepower when they need it. Not keep them at it at all times. (A key word I use in all my work is 'CAN'... Which means it is 'possible'... not, 'will', or 'inevitable'. I think people are mistaking 'it is possible' for 'it is aways done'.)

In my oppinion, from a standpoint of a commander in the field. It is an acceptable tradeoff to give the soldiers the five minutes of overwhelming superiority they need to win a decisive victory at the expense of probable required recooperation time, than to have them all stuck at C rank and get smeared by a couple of 'Elite' units and KILLED and be stuck with a failed objective.


If I can take sixty soldiers of C rank, pump them up to A rank for five mintues, and turn them loose against the 'Numbers', the overwhelming firepower and superiority of A rank firepower is going to crush them so bad that it'll be over in a mere 45 seconds. Far faster than sending four B/A ranks and two AA ranks out to attempt to deal with a situation involving 12 or so A to S rank units.

*Looks at clock.*

Oh, I gotta go... or I'll be late for work and I have to hit PetSMart still...

Caio!

But I've only got one prototype suit. *Shrug.*
AdmiralTigerclaw is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 16:56   Link #18954
SpaceBrotha
Wild card
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Finland
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
With a platoon, you'd have 60 temporarily A rank pumped soldiers and you'd win the fight in a very short manner with that kind of firepower. (The SS shots would be marked as an Operator Don't... unless you think it's absolutely necissary.)
Just because you CAN pump up to A and fire SS, doesn't mean you will use it. You want it available.

You win the fight quickly, power fatigue can set in. THAT, is key. You still have to manage your soldier's strength. Give them the option to use the upper level firepower when they need it. Not keep them at it at all times. (A key word I use in all my work is 'CAN'... Which means it is 'possible'... not, 'will', or 'inevitable'. I think people are mistaking 'it is possible' for 'it is aways done'.)

In my oppinion, from a standpoint of a commander in the field. It is an acceptable tradeoff to give the soldiers the five minutes of overwhelming superiority they need to win a decisive victory at the expense of probable required recooperation time, than to have them all stuck at C rank and get smeared by a couple of 'Elite' units and KILLED and be stuck with a failed objective.


If I can take sixty soldiers of C rank, pump them up to A rank for five mintues, and turn them loose against the 'Numbers', the overwhelming firepower and superiority of A rank firepower is going to crush them so bad that it'll be over in a mere 45 seconds. Far faster than sending four B/A ranks and two AA ranks out to attempt to deal with a situation involving 12 or so A to S rank units.

*Looks at clock.*

Oh, I gotta go... or I'll be late for work and I have to hit PetSMart still...

Caio!

But I've only got one prototype suit. *Shrug.*
Strategy i can understand, the way of thinking, yes.
But the actual feasibility of such a suit is what i'm doubting.
For one, looking at what nanoha already has (combat cyborgs, artificial humans, starships) there has to be a reason why no one hasn't made one of those suits yet... just attaching the whole exoskeletal structure to a combat cyborg should be easy enough.
So i'm guessing there's another reason for the lack of such exoskeletal designs...

...but as it's midnight and i've been up since early morning, i'm heading to bed now...
__________________
"Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules." Unknown
"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." Norman Schwarzkopf
"Whoever stands by a just cause cannot possibly be called a terrorist." Yassar Arafat
Sayings and quotes hold wisdom in them. Either the wisdom is found in the correctness of the quote, or in the lesson learned from the error.
Hard part is figuring out who's making the errors...
SpaceBrotha is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 20:11   Link #18955
Liingo
Love Hina?
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kangaroos live in my backyard =P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
@Liingo: Thx. Will respond properly after sleep.
Don't bother, it wasn't for you.

The background pieces were adapted nicely into the universe so good job on that front. Sure it's copy pasta, but it's good copy pasta. (Kha, take note of what they've done.. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyral View Post
Puuh... time for me to blow out some crack again xD

Xgouki wanted to read about it... so I came up with this little story out of my Dark Future Setting.
Sorry for the long delay.

Ah... I tried to correct my gramma myself this time... so please bear with me.


Spoiler for The Corruption:
Interesting stuff. I'm really interested as to what just happened. MOAR please
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Perhaps what we need is an actual chart or definition of exactly what each rank means in terms of power/skill.
We've tried... It's surprisingly hard when we don't know the power output of the attacks that they're using. At best, they're the same rank as the mage but they can also be lower in power than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimitedEternal View Post
Amen. that would iron out so many problems with subjectivity in power(which I personally am guilty of) and we really could use something like that. Alas, I too don't have the background knowhow to do this, but is there anyone who could?
Nope. Unless of course you've got the emails of the producers of the show. Then again, I'm not sure that they've got a clue what they're doing as well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
As for the power ranks, Skane put it very well.

How would you rank your character when compared to Hayate? Nanoha and Fate? The Wolkenritters? The Strikers?

There are no need to grow an inferiority complex because your character is a mere C or D in term of magical potential.

Awesome battles found in Hunter X Hunter (Kurapika vs that brute force guy) or JoJo's Bizarre Adventures (Hayato (a mere human with no Stand) vs Killer queen Bites the Dust, Jotaro vs D'Arby, Passione Gang vs Man in the Mirror, to name a few) were not awesome because of the raw power that was displayed, but because of the creative ways they played the cards they were dealt.
Tigerclaw This approch on the ranks is what I've been saying, compare the potential of the suit to Hayate/Nanoha/Fate/Insert other character here.

Going at the full potential of the suit, you've got someone who's
SS ranked in terms of power
S ranked in defense
S ranked in speed
SS ranked in range

yet's its being controlled by a C/ B ranked mage who make up the majority of the magic users in the TSAB.

So what's the point of having the canon cast that's been created already? Horray for making them redundant all of a sudden.

I don't have the problem with the concept of the suit, heck we've got something like that in here already, YET it's nowhere near your suit in terms of the stats that I've listed out above.

Do you get what I've been trying to say in the last couple of posts? Or do I have to sit here feeling like I'm trying to explain something to a brick wall..

Essentially it boils down to this fact.

There's no canon evidence to support such a suit as it is right now with the specs that it's currently designed for.

Yes I'm aware that all of the arguments that you've presented make perfect sense in Real life. But the same RL concepts don't necessarily transfer over nicely into the Nanoha verse.
Liingo is offline  
Old 2008-01-26, 21:52   Link #18956
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liingo View Post
(Kha, take note of what they've done.. )
()
__________________
Kha is offline  
Old 2008-01-27, 01:28   Link #18957
LimitedEternal
Nuclear Fusion
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sky of stone, floor of flame.
Age: 34
Kha, what did you do this time???
__________________
In my hands, a sun, that my path may be lit.
At my back, the sky, so I may be free to soar.
In my eyes, hell, for it is my cradle and grave.
LimitedEternal is offline  
Old 2008-01-27, 01:43   Link #18958
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Spam mode?

SPAM? If I want to spam I'll throw in a Macross Missile Massecre.
Spam as in the context of MSLN, not any other context. This is MSLN, so spam in this context means, roughly, anything about 30 shots. "A word is known by the company it keeps." One of the most basic rules of interpretation, and pretty commonsense. Thus, while what we refer to as beamspam would hardly cause Macross vets to bat their eyes (or even Excellen - dear god the beamspam Weiss Ritter Rein puts out), it's spam in the context of Nanoha.

Quote:
Anywho. I don't see what's so spammiful about rapid fire dumb shots asside from the fact that, well... non-magical technology can already do that a hundred times more viciously. You know?
This is what 70 fist sized depleted uranium slugs sound like when they're all fired in one second traveling at Mach 2+ past a camera... fired from a GAU-8 Avenger cannon. And what I'm suggesting has nowhere near that kill power. (GAU-8 makes rapid swiss cheese out of a tank.)
...oh god GAU-8 versus tanks AGAIN? -_- I tried mentioning this to TK and he was dismissive of the effectivenes of the GAU-8 against tanks - modern tanks, at any rate, with Chobham armor. Also note that the video you showed is inconclusive, as the cameraman was focusing on the A-10, not on the target. (Unless you wanted just the sound?)

As a matter of fact, Stinger Ray, the spell Chrono was using when he assaulted Precia's fortress, has a volume of fire similar to an assault rifle. It's also noted that it's not quite as powerful as Divine Shooter. I can see spamming of Stinger Ray - that's what the OFM's Alpha Squad "LMG" gunner does, but not the spamming of a Divine Shooter level. Nanoha was AAA during MSLN and A's, and we never see her spamming shots.

Furthermore, the one time we see a volume of fire similar to what you're proposing is in Fate and Nanoha's final showdown over Uminari, where Fate uses Photon Lancer: Genocide Shift. Note that that when she deployed this spell, Fate was AAA-ranked, she had a lightning/electrical affinity, and she still needed to be stationary while the spell charged. I'm sorry, but I doubt a C-rank is going to be able to do that while flying.

Quote:
As for range... It's called BVR engagement. If forty year old pieces of missile technology can hit a target seventy miles away, and aircraft can hit targets the size of a bus that you can't even see with the naked eye anyway, why not have a magic projectile that can track and kill a target at a mere five Km? (Two miles or so.)

I mean, we can put bombs through windows at five thousand feet... A man sized target should be easy enough to track with magical sensor utilities.
If you want to call stuff like that over-cannon, I have to call serious bull on a civilization that has the technology for crossdimensional transport battlecruisers, and live image feeds as if they're six feet away, but can't make a magical projectile track and home on a target that's not even one and a half times past BVR range.
My take on the matter? Cultural issues.

Take a good look at the magitech of the Nanoverse. All of it is geared around individual combat with the naked eye. I'm pretty sure that they did have BVR weapons at one point, but note that 150 years ago, after a hugeass final war, all conventional weapons were banned and the TSAB stepped away from conventional weapons. This is an institutional bias, an institutional paradigm, that won't be going away for a long time.

Quote:
Overpowered? Try Common Sense.
Don't bring your fists to a knife fight. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Don't bring a gun to a cannon fight. Stay the heck OUT of a cannon fight.
Or snipe the cannon crews. *shrug*

Quote:
As for Hayate doing that 'once' with the artillery bit.

Uh, that was more her doing it about ten times, firing shots of the nature of five round barrages that each hit like a small strategic nuclear weapon. And she didn't even break a sweat. Nanoha's a little white demon, but I wouldn't go against Hayate with anything less than a Los Angeles Class's full compliment of nuclear tipped trident missiles. And even then I'm likely to just piss her off.
Actually, for taking down, Hayate, that would depend very much on how you do it. This is a spoiler of sorts, but in Joint Training Pt.3, Franz reveals to Hayate that it's actually quite easy to take mages down - sniper ambush from far, mines, IEDs, the old tricks of the Erusian Resistance. Of course, taking down the mage and getting away from the mage's buddies are two different things entirely...

(Think Iraq. On a planetary scale.)

It should also be noted that Franz does know what the hell he's talking about; he was mentored by Sergeant Major Ivanovich, who has a reputation among the TSAB as an infamous mage killer. (Franz was on the TSAB side of the invasion, though. Long story. Check the links to Kagerou and my OC pages in post #5 of this thread for more OT background on the War of Subjugation.)

Quote:
@ Goose.

I find that explanation easier to understand and digest than someone just going 'it's overpowered!' with only a vague explanation as to why.
I figured that you'd need it. *shrug* It's pretty easy to go, "ZOMG Cartridges = unlimited power!" but there's a reason Nanoha's body got all fucked up from what was implied to be a fairly minor injury.

To further elabotrate: The Mage's body is like a car. The Linker Core is the engine. Cartridges are NOS. NOS in a car gives a temporary boost of power, like cartridges. But there is no way a Honda Civic engine can match a Ferrari engine, no matter how much NOS you use - and use to much, and you blow the engine. Likewise with mages: no matter how many cartridges she uses - and she's used a lot, B-ranked Teana does not reach Limited AA-rank Nanoha's level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
As for the power ranks, Skane put it very well.

How would you rank your character when compared to Hayate? Nanoha and Fate? The Wolkenritters? The Strikers?

There are no need to grow an inferiority complex because your character is a mere C or D in term of magical potential.

Awesome battles found in Hunter X Hunter (Kurapika vs that brute force guy) or JoJo's Bizarre Adventures (Hayato (a mere human with no Stand) vs Killer queen Bites the Dust, Jotaro vs D'Arby, Passione Gang vs Man in the Mirror, to name a few) were not awesome because of the raw power that was displayed, but because of the creative ways they played the cards they were dealt.
Which is why most of the OCs in the Order of Freelance Mages are B to A ranked. Ivanovich is AA+ because he's Sergeant Major Absolute Badass Johnson; everybody else is B to A; my main OC and the guy whom Disrupted Tangent places a good deal of focus on, Franz Jaeger, is merely A+. (Though he did pass OCS on his first try.) Hell, MASTER CHIEF is merely B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
That's just the thing about the military though. And I mean this from experience.

A military will have an inferiority complex if it has to fight a pitched battle. The objective is to have such overlapping superiority over an opponent that when the fight begins, it's over for the enemy almost immediately. No commander wants to send troops out knowing half of them will die or be seriously injured. Not if he knows he can say "Load up the GBU-87s and turn that place into a scrap yard!" and THEN send in his ground pounders.

Could just be too much military mode talking from me. But personally, I find that my number one NEED is that I must have the power to OMGWTFPWN an opponent, because it'll save lives of MY guys on the ground.

So my natural need will be to turn to a Magical Engineer in this case and tell him/her.
"I see a strategic and tactical deficiency here and here... Design me a device system that can do this, this, this, this, and this... Make it fit on a general purpose mage and give it the ability to enhance their function to this. Increase their survivability as well. Experienced veterans only come from those who actually survive their engagements."

"No, I don't care if that is technically insane to attempt with a C class mage. Don't give me excuses, give me results. If it can physically be done, do it. We'll mark the problems later as operator dos and don'ts. That's what testing is for after all. Now get moving. I want this done, and I want it done yesterday. If I lose one more good man to the enemy because you wouldn't let me give them what they needed in the field, I'll be sure to have you standing before a military tribunal faster than you can say Starlight Breaker: SHOOT! Understood?! Good. Dismissed."

Maybe I should design a grouchy commander that sounds like that too, just so we know we've got someone who will make those kind of calls. Reminds me of Regius... but Regius was a di-ERHEM... disgruntled individual caught in a conspiracy loop. Yeah, that's it.
Aha, I think I know what's the problem.

TC, your viewpoint above is all fine and well for a conventional military. However, the TSAB is anything BUT a conventional military. Observations of how they operate thoughout StrikerS and other media indicate that rather than being a conventional military, the TSAB are more like a gendarmie: a police force run on military lines, with military rank and discipline, but with a policing role. Observe the existence of Investigation Department in Battalion 108 and how their most recent tasking was investigating and breaking down a smuggling ring - hardly what a normal military would concern itself with.

The TSAB's focus isn't the same as yours. You're thinking of a mecha suit for an open field battle; the rest of the TSAB (and OC units) are operating on policing and special forces roles because that's what the TSAB needs at this point. The TSAB is focused on policing and counter insurgency - the War of Subjugation has resulted in a large number of TSAB survivors raising the need for counterinsugency and FISH & CHIPS rather than open field battles.

And quite frankly, in the aftermath of Regius' fall from grace, it's doubtful the TSAB will be picking up anything as hawkish as mecha suits.

EDIT: FISH & CHIPS is the charming acronym for urban warfare used by British Army troops. It stands for Fighting In Someone's House & Causing Havoc In People's Streets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
With a platoon, you'd have 60 temporarily A rank pumped soldiers and you'd win the fight in a very short manner with that kind of firepower. (The SS shots would be marked as an Operator Don't... unless you think it's absolutely necissary.)
Just because you CAN pump up to A and fire SS, doesn't mean you will use it. You want it available.
Again, as I've said, you're trying to take a Civic engine, load it up with NOS to Integra level, and expect it to win against a Ferarri/Dodge Viper/Mine's GTR/Etc./Insert appropriate. It won't work - the odds are good your mage will burnout before he can even use an SS-rank attack. Hell, while S-ranks are somewhat common enough that the knowledge you're facing an S-rank makes you go, "Well, shit," SS-ranks are really freakin' rare.

Quote:
You win the fight quickly, power fatigue can set in. THAT, is key. You still have to manage your soldier's strength. Give them the option to use the upper level firepower when they need it. Not keep them at it at all times. (A key word I use in all my work is 'CAN'... Which means it is 'possible'... not, 'will', or 'inevitable'. I think people are mistaking 'it is possible' for 'it is aways done'.)
Right, but the way you're presenting this idea of yours is that you will always be boosting C-ranks to A, expecting them to toss out SS - it just doesn't work that way.

Quote:
In my oppinion, from a standpoint of a commander in the field. It is an acceptable tradeoff to give the soldiers the five minutes of overwhelming superiority they need to win a decisive victory at the expense of probable required recooperation time, than to have them all stuck at C rank and get smeared by a couple of 'Elite' units and KILLED and be stuck with a failed objective.

If I can take sixty soldiers of C rank, pump them up to A rank for five mintues, and turn them loose against the 'Numbers', the overwhelming firepower and superiority of A rank firepower is going to crush them so bad that it'll be over in a mere 45 seconds. Far faster than sending four B/A ranks and two AA ranks out to attempt to deal with a situation involving 12 or so A to S rank units.
The problem with these power boosts is that you need to be well-versed in training with them to make full usage of these power boosts - so if it's only for when the shit hits the fan your boys could still be in trouble, as they're unable to use their weapons properly. For example, the M16 gave a lot of problems in VIetnam because it was new and nobody knew how to use it properly back then. It was a technological step up from the M14, but its users weren't fully dialed in to it.

Furthermore, as something I read by a Marine mentioned, Power is useless unless it is properly applied. You're assuming that 60 A-ranks can steamroller the Numbers - well, Tre and Sette were just two and they steamrollered the Air Force rescue squad. Just having numbers is nothing: in one day, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock II and his spotter eliminated an entire NVA infantry company, just the two of them. Gary Gordon and Randall Shugart were eventually overrun only because they ran out of ammo. (So long as both were uninjured and fully supplied, they were able to slow the Somali mob, but once Gordon was killed by an AK round and Shugart ran out of ammo, that was it for them. Tre and Sette had the advantage of being on the momentum of the attack, as opposed to Gordon and Shugart who were defending Super Six Four pilot Michael Durrant.)

Also, going by your acceptable tradeoff theory... you aren't going to have many troops willing to trust you. No soldier wants to feel like a pawn.

Also, each time Nanoha and Fate have sortied against the Numbers, they've had their limiters removed, but the AMF density makes them weaker than they should be.

That's another thing, AMF. Enough AMF will put a damper onto the power capabilities of this mecha suit. Witness the massive AMF wave in StrikerS that pretty much dropped Hayate and everyone flying. That was for Natural S-ranks, so it'd have greater effect on pumped up C-ranks.

As for the mecha suit proposal... this might happen:
Spoiler for Lol tongue in cheek, not a jab or anything:
__________________
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.


Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-01-27 at 02:06.
Wild Goose is offline  
Old 2008-01-27, 02:03   Link #18959
Kagerou
"Begin, the operation!"
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Kagerou
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Spoiler for omg haxxbusting:
That pretty much sums it up. I think, Goose, you just entered the world of haxxbusting.
__________________
Kagerou - Generic Universal Rage Producing System
Kagerou is offline  
Old 2008-01-27, 02:36   Link #18960
dkellis
illusion control
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Age: 38
Send a message via ICQ to dkellis Send a message via AIM to dkellis Send a message via MSN to dkellis
Sometimes I feel somewhat fortunate that I don't have to worry about needing to have my characters overpower opponents, and instead I just have to worry about some obscure passage in some out-of-anime source contradicting the careful edifice of plot I have constructed.

The thing about writing all of this is that you're the writer. You can write whatever you want to. You can create a SSS-ranked mage if you really want to, because it's all only words on the screen anyway.

But apart from all the "military common sense" or "overwhelming superiority" arguments, there's really one question which overrides everything else:

Will this make a good story?

Does the mage need to be SSS-ranked (or S-ranked or A-ranked or D-ranked) in order to tell that story? Is it the absolute minimum rank needed for the plot? Why does the mage have that rank, for the meta-fictional purpose of the story?

The answer shouldn't be of the form "because logically, taking RL militaries into account", but it should be of the form "because at this point, I need the character to be able to perform this action, and that requires this rank at minimum". You're the writer: you create the character for the purpose he or she is meant to serve, and then you use all this military knowledge to explain why the character is that way.

A story is not merely made up of brief moments of superpowered characters hurling stars at each other. A story is made up of the events that will lead up to these moments of star-hurling; the climactic battles should not rest on a rickety foundation of half-hearted justifications.

There's no need to have a higher rank possibility "just in case". Why would they need that higher rank? Why does the higher rank have to be that high? If it serves no significant purpose to the story, then why have it at all? If it does, then is there any way you can reduce the rank without reducing the significance?

In other words, maybe you shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight, but you also shouldn't use a cannon to kill a fly.
dkellis is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.