[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[chibidoro]

But dont you remember that in episode 1

Spoiler for Umineko chessboard:

Frederica talked to someone (Presumably Battler, cause Beatrice went to get a new board) in that ??? room, explaining the way to defeat Beatrice telling him that she will give him some of his power, and in episode 2 Lambdadelta told that same person (when both Beatrice and Bernkastel went away) to get back on his feet, and also, didnt you say just earlier that there was only one chessboard, and werent Frederica and LD invited as supporters (Frederica for Battler, and LD for Beatrice)?

So to sum it all up, would you please say how many chessboards there really are, what area do they have, which pieces and what is the victory condition?

So the first Battler-Beato chessboard has the Rokkenjima area (purgatorio (meta-land) not included, nor anything after the golden land door gets opened (after the 10th twilight), 18 characters and Battlers victory condition is to solve the murders so that he may deny Beato in the meta-world.

what about the 2nd chess game (between Beato and Bern) does it also include purgatorio, is Beatrice herself a piece in the game or ange, is the victory condition not for Battler to solve the crimes as in the first but to see if he will deny the witch or accept her in the meta-world?

[Klashikari]

No, the chessboard refers only to a kakera where everything happen.
The stage, so to speak. So the rokkenjima of the first episode is the first chessboard.
The second chessboard is in episode 2, with different murders etc.

Basically, a chessboard is called a "game" by beato, which is its literal meaning here.
There is only 1 chessboard at a given time, but for all intent and purpose, they say "next" etc, since they reset it.

[Haruyan]

Frederica talked to someone (Presumably Battler, cause Beatrice went to get a new board) in that ??? room, explaining the way to defeat Beatrice telling him that she will give him some of his power, and in episode 2 Lambdadelta told that same person (when both Beatrice and Bernkastel went away) to get back on his feet, and also, didnt you say just earlier that there was only one chessboard, and werent Frederica and LD invited as supporters (Frederica for Battler, and LD for Beatrice)?

We're not sure if she really talked to Battler, she might've been talking to the player (you/me). Lambdadelta also might've been talking to Rosa, not Battler. Bern and LD are not part of the regular game.

So to sum it all up, would you please say how many chessboards there really are, what area do they have, which pieces and what is the victory condition?

First game. Game between Battler and Beatrice. Objective: prove or disapprove the existence of witches. Virgilia plays on Battler's side (for a while), Ronove plays for Beatrice's side, but the real player are only Battler and Beatrice.

Second game. Game between Bernkastel and Beatrice. Beatrice's objective is to make Battler lose and accept witches, Bern's objective is to prevent that. Lambda supports Beatrice's side. This second game is related to the first game, so Bernkastel can use her pieces there (Ange) to help Battler win and thus win her own game with Beatrice. Bern's victory condition's here are not as clear as in the first chessboard (think Higurashi, which was also a game between Bern and LD).

So the first Battler-Beato chessboard has the Rokkenjima area (purgatorio (meta-land) not included, nor anything after the golden land door gets opened (after the 10th twilight), 18 characters and Battlers victory condition is to solve the murders so that he may deny Beato in the meta-world.

what about the 2nd chess game (between Beato and Bern) does it also include purgatorio, is Beatrice herself a piece in the game or ange, is the victory condition not for Battler to solve the crimes as in the first but to see if he will deny the witch or accept her in the meta-world?

For the second game, Beatrice herself is her own piece and Ange is Bern's piece so to speak.

[chibidoro]

Thank you very much, I had similar thought myself, so the first game is Battler vs. Beatrice, she does crimes, he has to prove a human did them and deny her in the meta-world (here, Battler is his own piece and Beatrice can move herself from meta to game), if he denies her in the meta-world, then Frederica wins in her Bernkastel vs. Beato game of which the meta-world is part of (but as you said, like in Higurashi, maybe that is not the real victory condition).

And for Beatrice, in the first game she has to pin him down with those crimes so much that he accepts her in the meta world (outside the 1st game, inside the 2nd) and then she can win in the Bernkastel vs. Beato game.

[Avisch]

All the talk of the Meta-World is getting me excited to think about how they will do it in the anime.

[Proto]

All this talk aobut the game in general makes me be worried about how the anime will fare in the west. The expectations on the TV series are too high for its own good

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler for replies:

As for Rosa, I have the nagging suspicion that she and Maria are faking their quarrels and are actually working together. I know this is a stretch but that's my hunch. There are some facts which might support it though - if Rosa can't stand witches that mcuh, why does she allow Maria to carry that notebook around? Sure, if it is taken away from her she would cry to no end but this problem doesn't seem to stop Rosa from slapping her time and again. Second, in ep.2 Kanon sees Maria and Rosa quarreling in the garden, Maria gets slapped, she cries, a lot of drama...and immediately afterwards she is totally fine and starts laughing creepily when Kanon announces his presence.

Spoiler:

While that would be ideal and quite interesting... it wouldn't explain the fact that Rosa beats Maria outside of the conference. Like when they were late because Rosa and Maria had another bad moment and eventually Rosa got Maria the lollipop. Nobody was there to watch, there would have been no reason to act that out.

Also Rosa has a lot going on in her life... enough to give her a few issues. I don't think it's hard to see why she would beat her daughter. Her family looks down on her, she has no husband to confide in, her business is laughed at, according to EP 3 she has the death of Beatrice weighing down on her conscience, and she has almost no chance at actually getting a major share of the gold unless her siblings are all dead. To top that all off, Maria isn't exactly an easy child to care for... so while it's still wrong, it's not hard to believe that their scenes are pretty real.

Though personally I would love if it was an act. ^^;

[Chadauw]

Spoiler for Episode 2:

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

Although I do agree with you about Rosa doing it. My guess is either as you said, or that she actually did solve the Epitaph and tried to get her siblings to reconize her as the head, however, they wouldn't and so she killed them.

Maybe I'm a bit naive here but... I doubt Rosa did the murder of the Chapel in Episode 2. I remember that, when she discovered the corpse, she was very shocked because it made her remember an old trauma. How could she kill somebody this way? Unless she wasn't really herself...

Maybe she made a deal with the murderers or with the 19th person?

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

Some of those motives are very shaky, really. Obviously, everyone has atleast one motive of "money".

Natsuhi: I don't think she despises most of the family like you have said. She obviously despises Eva, but I don't think she despises George, though I think she does hold some hatred for him. As for the rest, she certainly doesn't act like she hates them, and acts worried for them on many occasions.

I agree. I don't think she despise the family, besides Eva. She seems to be in good terms with Rosa, for exemple (when she offers the tea for her headaches).

And she acts somehow like a mother whith the other children. I remember this touching scene, after the incident in the boiler room in ep1 when she held Battler in her arms, saying she will protect all the children.

[Matrim]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Spoiler:

While that would be ideal and quite interesting... it wouldn't explain the fact that Rosa beats Maria outside of the conference. Like when they were late because Rosa and Maria had another bad moment and eventually Rosa got Maria the lollipop. Nobody was there to watch, there would have been no reason to act that out.

Also Rosa has a lot going on in her life... enough to give her a few issues. I don't think it's hard to see why she would beat her daughter. Her family looks down on her, she has no husband to confide in, her business is laughed at, according to EP 3 she has the death of Beatrice weighing down on her conscience, and she has almost no chance at actually getting a major share of the gold unless her siblings are all dead. To top that all off, Maria isn't exactly an easy child to care for... so while it's still wrong, it's not hard to believe that their scenes are pretty real.

Though personally I would love if it was an act. ^^;

Spoiler for ep.3:

Well, the pre-conference events were one of the reasons why I said the theory was a stretch. But it's possible that Rosa beating up Maria in the train never actually happened - in other words it "happened" only in the version Beato tells Battler in the end. After all, another pre-conference event was Shannon meeting Beato time and again which is very fishy, considering she remembers none of this in ep.1. I wonder how likely is it to come across a Halloween theme coloured coffeeshop in Japan almost an entire month before Halloween. It's said that Beato adds unnecessary details into her lies (I think Virgilia or bern called it "noise"), maybe this is one of the examples?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler for ep.3:

Well, the pre-conference events were one of the reasons why I said the theory was a stretch. But it's possible that Rosa beating up Maria in the train never actually happened - in other words it "happened" only in the version Beato tells Battler in the end. After all, another pre-conference event was Shannon meeting Beato time and again which is very fishy, considering she remembers none of this in ep.1. I wonder how likely is it to come across a Halloween theme coloured coffeeshop in Japan almost an entire month before Halloween. It's said that Beato adds unnecessary details into her lies (I think Virgilia or bern called it "noise"), maybe this is one of the examples?

Spoiler:

Ahh yes that's possible, I do remember Beatrice's odd playing style being noted quite a few times. In a way it feels like that would be cheating to me... but I suppose it's entirely plausible. Also like I said before, I would like if that was true that Maria and Rosa were just putting on an act... so I'm not against that idea or anything. :3

Hmmm... how would this explain their scene in EP3 I wonder? After all Rosa and Maria went out together because Maria was making a fuss... and then that pretty much led to their deaths. Perhaps they were planning on doing something but were stopped by the culprit and killed? I wonder how that would work out...

Hmmm... for some reason them dieing over and over seems like symbolism to me... like it stood for something. I may be wrong but if the reason on doing that was to only show how cruel Eva-Beatrice was and give Battler fuel to get angry at Beatrice and make her nicer throughout the story then it may feel a little odd to me once the real answer is out. I still think it has some real significance on the story... sorry for going off on a tangent about it since it wasn't part of the original discussion, I just feel that it's an important piece. ^^;

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler for ep.3:

Well, the pre-conference events were one of the reasons why I said the theory was a stretch. But it's possible that Rosa beating up Maria in the train never actually happened - in other words it "happened" only in the version Beato tells Battler in the end. After all, another pre-conference event was Shannon meeting Beato time and again which is very fishy, considering she remembers none of this in ep.1. I wonder how likely is it to come across a Halloween theme coloured coffeeshop in Japan almost an entire month before Halloween. It's said that Beato adds unnecessary details into her lies (I think Virgilia or bern called it "noise"), maybe this is one of the examples?

I don't think it didn't happen, I think it happened, but just not the way it is shown.

Beato can definitely lie (and I think even her red text should be put in doubt), but I don't think she'd find it fun if everything was a setup. If everything is a lie, then what's the point? It would be easy for Battler to say, "It's all a lie, you're making this up just so I can't win. State in red that everything shown happened truthfully." What makes the game interesting (both for us and Beato) is finding was is true and what is not.

[Matrim]

I meant that parts of the story didn't happen, not that all of it was a big lie. So the result is the same - Rosa is late and carries some candy with her but not because she had a guilty concience in regards to Maria.

[Marion]

Okay, we know a lot of scenes can easily be red herrings, such as the possible Natsuhi and Kinzo scene in episode 1. But that means we must question how far does Beatrice's red text goes?

Spoiler for Beatrice's Domain:

In the Hidden Tea Party in episode 2, Beatrice mentions having a domain, when she reveals to Bernkanstel that she knew that she (Bern) was helping Battler. So how far does her extent of domain go? Does this mean that every scene we see needs to be reassured by red text or it never happens - even the scenes that aren't on Rokkenjima?

As far as 'domain' goes, Beatrice's domain is most likely Rokkenjima and a portion of the sea that surrounds it (thus the typhoon). So really I doubt that the scene that Maria got hit by Rosa in the train station and later received candy didn't happen and was faked. Remember - Maria has some of the candy that Rosa gave her when they arrive at Rokkenjima too. How else could Rosa smash it after beating her up again.

EDIT:

Spoiler for Shannon Ep 1 and Ep 2:

It's obviously shown that Shannon had these meetings with Beatrice in Episode 2 before the family even came to the island. As far as it goes we need to remember that Beatrice has a different 'chess board' for every episode. So something that happened in one episode doesn't necessarily have to happen in a different episode. Not every event is intertwined. Like in Higurashi for example: Not every arc is related to each other.

[Haruyan]

But that means we must question how far does Beatrice's red text goes?

Personally, I would doubt other characters' use of red text, such as Ronove and Eva-Beatrice. Beatrice might also word things in a certain way as to avoid being discovered. (e.g. saying such and such are alive, instead of such and such are dead.)

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Shannon Ep 1 and Ep 2:

It's obviously shown that Shannon had these meetings with Beatrice in Episode 2 before the family even came to the island. As far as it goes we need to remember that Beatrice has a different 'chess board' for every episode. So something that happened in one episode doesn't necessarily have to happen in a different episode. Not every event is intertwined. Like in Higurashi for example: Not every arc is related to each other.

Spoiler:

If this is the case then why can't Ange ever attend the family conference? She's always sick so she can't seem to attend. That just happens recently before the meeting as well it seems so events such as Shannon's meeting with Beatrice and Rosa's incident with Beatrice would of had to be set in stone as well wouldn't they? Hmmm... I'm not sure what to think on this, I read part of EP4 and could go into it a bit more but I won't spoil anything here.

[Avisch]

An earlier theory on Ange's sickness said

Spoiler for ideas:

Someone said that the murderer could have been thrown off by Ange's absence.
But it's interesting to think...That the murderer perhaps plans Ange's absence therefore ruling the consistency as not coincidence. Bet in Episode 8 we will get everyone coming to the island though.


Or maybe we can say that Ange is irrelevant. Cause if the murderer is after the gold leaving one Ushiromiya alive is not going to stop him/her from taking the gold.

Spoiler for other ideas (EP 1-3):

With the inclusion of red text. I'm interested if we are ever going to get fake deaths. Cause ever since episode 2 we have not been able to get any. Actually only episode 1 has any implication of fake deaths with the "unrecognizable faces"

Spoiler for Connecting theories:

I just realized that the theroy me and one other had concerning the possiblity:

"Kinzo (or perhaps someone else) gets killed before the conference and the body of his that we find is the real body and the imposter is still around murdering"

This could fix to the paradox that Eva-Beatrice forms at the end when......oh wait does she state that only Eva, Battler, and Jessica are alive ? Cause then nevermind then.

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by Avisch

An earlier theory on Ange's sickness said

Spoiler for other ideas (EP 1-3):

With the inclusion of red text. I'm interested if we are ever going to get fake deaths. Cause ever since episode 2 we have not been able to get any. Actually only episode 1 has any implication of fake deaths with the "unrecognizable faces"

There's a theory that there might be a time limit on Beatrice's red text. A character might've still be alive until Beatrice stated he/she was dead.

Spoiler for Connecting theories:

I just realized that the theroy me and one other had concerning the possiblity:

"Kinzo (or perhaps someone else) gets killed before the conference and the body of his that we find is the real body and the imposter is still around murdering"

This could fix to the paradox that Eva-Beatrice forms at the end when......oh wait does she state that only Eva, Battler, and Jessica are alive ? Cause then nevermind then.

She stated that Kinzo was dead.

[Marion]

Spoiler for Kinzo/Episode 1 spoilers:

My guess is that every time we see Kinzo in each game it's an imposter. Kinzo never leaves his study and the only people ever in it are Genji, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon. Unless Kinzo dies before the First Twilight murders occur we can say that the servants become possible accomplices.

As far as his body in episode 1 I remember he went missing. Then later they found his body burned up. Possible theory: There is a Kinzo impersonator and the real Kinzo has been dead for some time. Going back to episode 1 we can say that the Kinzo impersonator was putting the body into the burner when Kanon ran down. By the time he was finished putting in the body Kanon got to the boiler room and was stabbed. This could explain why Kinzo's body was badly burned by the time they took it out but his toes were still intact enough for them to tell it was him.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Avisch

An earlier theory on Ange's sickness said

Spoiler for ideas:

Someone said that the murderer could have been thrown off by Ange's absence.
But it's interesting to think...That the murderer perhaps plans Ange's absence therefore ruling the consistency as not coincidence. Bet in Episode 8 we will get everyone coming to the island though.


Or maybe we can say that Ange is irrelevant. Cause if the murderer is after the gold leaving one Ushiromiya alive is not going to stop him/her from taking the gold.

Spoiler:

Hmmm I think Ange's presence may be more important than we think. Not necessarily to stop or lessen the progress of the murders directly, but maybe in some other way she is actually a very important piece. Perhaps if she was there she might be able to help in some form without knowing... since her and Maria are young girls and seem to get along from what I've read, let's assume that Maria is an accomplice to the culprit while Ange would be an ally to the rest, if they talk then maybe Maria would accidentally spill a bit of information to her that she wouldn't tell any of the older members of the family. The same may happen if Rudolf or Kyrie are the culprits and Ange notices some weird things while she's around them and let's Battler know about them without knowing that she's helping...

Of course those are just scenarios, I'm most likely WAAAAAAAY off. But I'd still like to see 6 year old Ange become a part of the story and show some significance other than being the poor lonely soul left after the event takes place.

If her sickness is in fact part of the plan... then who could get her sick and make sure it happens each and every time? The only people that come to mind are Rudolf and Kyrie who are her parents and would know how to do such things if they really wanted to. I might be wrong, but did Rudolf mention something about him dieing before it happened in a previous episode? If so, then it may be possible that they did get Ange sick so that she couldn't attend the family conference... if they knew that a murdering spree would take place, of course they would want to keep their young daughter safe.

[Avisch]

Spoiler for maho's spoilers:

Hmmm I think Ange's presence may be more important than we think.

Of course those are just scenarios, I'm most likely WAAAAAAAY off. But I'd still like to see 6 year old Ange become a part of the story and show some significance other than being the poor lonely soul left after the event takes place.

Spoiler for response:

I agree Maho. I think Ange is important. I am very sure that Ange will come to the island eventually, well this is sort of what I believe after following Higurashi's presentation

Originally Posted by Haruyan

She stated that Kinzo was dead.

Are you getting confused by my post? Otherwise I'm alittle confused by your response.

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Kinzo/Episode 1 spoilers:

My guess is that every time we see Kinzo in each game it's an imposter. Kinzo never leaves his study and the only people ever in it are Genji, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon. Unless Kinzo dies before the First Twilight murders occur we can say that the servants become possible accomplices.

As far as his body in episode 1 I remember he went missing. Then later they found his body burned up. Possible theory: There is a Kinzo impersonator and the real Kinzo has been dead for some time. Going back to episode 1 we can say that the Kinzo impersonator was putting the body into the burner when Kanon ran down. By the time he was finished putting in the body Kanon got to the boiler room and was stabbed. This could explain why Kinzo's body was badly burned by the time they took it out but his toes were still intact enough for them to tell it was him.

First off Marion. You have a very nice Rosa avatar.

Spoiler for Theories:

The (possible) Imposter's behavior apparently is able to fool his children. But his unwillingness to meet everyone could support the theory as the imposter may not know how to behave around Kinzo's family.