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Old 2012-10-18, 01:53   Link #30881
qno2
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I hope it's alright if I barge into the discussion like this. It's a question that has been bugging me for a while and I'm probably just missing the obvious solution. I mean, Rosatrice is so popular that they couldn't have overlooked something this obvious. Because this doesn't really relate to the current topic here, I'll just put it into spoiler-tags to not be an eyesore.
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-10-18, 02:02   Link #30882
Drifloon
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Yeah, I'm curious to see how he explains that one too. I'm at the second twilight of EP1 in my viewing of it, so I'll tell you when I get there. It's probably just as stupid as his ridiculous interpretations of the love trial and the Yasu story, though.
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Old 2012-10-18, 02:12   Link #30883
qno2
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As I said, to my shame I haven't watched it at all...

Maybe I should add: sure, there is something about an illness for Kanon... we could think, right? Rosatrice is disregarding the entirety of EP7 anyway. Can't go about picking only the "fitting" stuff now can we? And after all if Shkanon doesn't apply the "illness" affects Shannon.

'sides, it's not portrayed as an "illness" that would cause death anytime (though we could argue about it due to the lack of information, sure; heck we can't be sure whether the author, Yasu, was really the child from 19 years ago, assuming that it existed in the first place, but that's primetalk), but as an injury that made love out of Yasu's perspective impossible. "Just adopt some", jeez.

On a lighter note, I've found the manuscript of Land of the Golden Witch. Totally legit.


...

I sure hope nobody took that seriously.

@Drifloon: if you don't mind, what is the general gist of his explanations?

Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 03:08.
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Old 2012-10-18, 04:31   Link #30884
Ryuudou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If it does, there's still no contradiction. The culprit isn't a servant, it's the head of the Ushiromiya family posing as a servant.
They aren't mutually exclusive actually. If Yasu is employed as a servant then Yasu is a servant regardless of heritage; after all he/she was raised that way.
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Old 2012-10-18, 06:55   Link #30885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
I hope it's alright if I barge into the discussion like this. It's a question that has been bugging me for a while and I'm probably just missing the obvious solution. I mean, Rosatrice is so popular that they couldn't have overlooked something this obvious. Because this doesn't really relate to the current topic here, I'll just put it into spoiler-tags to not be an eyesore.
Spoiler:
"ShKanon scum"? Tell me where those bullies are and I'll gladly support you; I like arguing with Rosatricers.

KnownNoMore discusses the EP1 5th twilight in detail in his third video, at 23:10. The explanation is about 10 minutes if you can stomach him that long. You might want to know ahead of time that he does use Nanjo as an accomplice for this twilight as well as in his overall theory.

By the way, a cute red against Rosatrice: I keep my promises. "Mom of the year" is a serial promise-breaker. Anyway, I brought this one up a while ago to KnownNoMore and he said that the red was not a general statement- that it was only talking about the promise that the murders would stop if the epitaph was solved. How he interprets it that way, I have no idea.
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Old 2012-10-18, 06:56   Link #30886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
They aren't mutually exclusive actually. If Yasu is employed as a servant then Yasu is a servant regardless of heritage; after all he/she was raised that way.
Yasu in the end was employed by Kinzo and was a servant under him. Kinzo died, Yasu remains without a work but hey also inherits everything. Natsuhi and Krauss don't know about the inheritance part and ask Yasu to continue being a servant of the head however the head is Yasu so all the job he/she is doing is... to serve himself/herself. In short, it's due to his/her own will he/she is doing what Natsuhi & Krauss ask him and not because he/she is on their paycheck.
This makes Yasu someone who has stopped being a servant and it's just posing as one.

Agatha Christie used a similar technique in one of her mystery to have the servant being the culprit.
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Old 2012-10-18, 07:54   Link #30887
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu in the end was employed by Kinzo and was a servant under him. Kinzo died, Yasu remains without a work but hey also inherits everything. Natsuhi and Krauss don't know about the inheritance part and ask Yasu to continue being a servant of the head however the head is Yasu so all the job he/she is doing is... to serve himself/herself. In short, it's due to his/her own will he/she is doing what Natsuhi & Krauss ask him and not because he/she is on their paycheck.
This makes Yasu someone who has stopped being a servant and it's just posing as one.

Agatha Christie used a similar technique in one of her mystery to have the servant being the culprit.
What would make Yasu the head over Krauss anyways? Krauss vastly outranks Yasu who should be on the same level as the cousins, or slightly below Rosa whether you count her as a child or a grandchild. Is it the epitaph? Is there any confirmation Yasu actually solved it? There's a scene in EP3 that implicitly shows Kinzo stating that he thinks a female heir is completely, absolutely, and utterly unfitting (mentioning this because Beatrice 2 is Kinzo's child and was actually female) and this is when Eva was around 17-20 I assume so it's not like it was before he was crazed over Beatrice 1/2. Sure he loved Beatrice 1 more than his marriage wife, but did Kinzo ever put it in writing about Yasu getting it over Krauss? Krauss was born before Beatrice 2.
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Old 2012-10-18, 08:42   Link #30888
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Why am I insisting on Kanon's death? Rosa just went in there, injured him mortally and he died due to that then, right? Well... all this leaves one of the "canon"-red. You see where I'm going, in fact you probably saw it coming a mile away.

Red from EP4: All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Lord only knows why I would bother defending this other than fun, and I haven't seen that thing either, but let's do it, Ryukishi-style*:

"Survivor" as used in the context of this red refers not to actual physically living people, but to people believed to be alive based upon the scenario presented! In the same manner, "body" or "corpse" can refer to the physical body of an individual without specifically stating, even though it implies, their life or death status! Rosa was not believed to be a survivor, and thus is not included as a "survivor," but she wasn't "dead" either. Also "human" doesn't refer to a living human being, but to an individual perceived to be human, which Rosa would not be, because she is a dick she is believed to be dead.

Alternatively, Rosa was a survivor with an alibi of "being dead," but was not a human because (personality death/not believed to be human because thought dead/is actually a lizard-person in disguise, which is why we never saw Kinzo's first wife).

* By which I mean cheat semantically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
This makes Yasu someone who has stopped being a servant and it's just posing as one.

Agatha Christie used a similar technique in one of her mystery to have the servant being the culprit.
And Christie was wrong to do so, I think. It's a stupid technical detail related to a stupid misleading rule. It's also, like, the first thing I thought of in ep4, but like all things I thought of Shkanon-related I discarded it for being too goddamn stupid. Oh well.

It's probably better to just pretend that rule isn't even being considered.
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Old 2012-10-18, 10:41   Link #30889
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Lord only knows why I would bother defending this other than fun, and I haven't seen that thing either, but let's do it, Ryukishi-style*:

"Survivor" as used in the context of this red refers not to actual physically living people, but to people believed to be alive based upon the scenario presented! In the same manner, "body" or "corpse" can refer to the physical body of an individual without specifically stating, even though it implies, their life or death status! Rosa was not believed to be a survivor, and thus is not included as a "survivor," but she wasn't "dead" either. Also "human" doesn't refer to a living human being, but to an individual perceived to be human, which Rosa would not be, because she is a dick she is believed to be dead.

Alternatively, Rosa was a survivor with an alibi of "being dead," but was not a human because (personality death/not believed to be human because thought dead/is actually a lizard-person in disguise, which is why we never saw Kinzo's first wife).

* By which I mean cheat semantically.
Very impressive semantic cheat, I'm tempted to ask whether you are Ryukishi but I suppose that wouldn't be very nice, eh?

Thanks to your new definition of "human" I'm thinking whether I should present the Joe the Mighty Seagull of Sadness who was perceived to be human-theory. (finally a theory that refers to the title of this friggin' series!)
It's also notable how your semantic definition of "human" actually promotes Shkanon. The other aspect, of being neither dead nor alive, would actually fit quite well with "that old equation" (18>x>19) - Rosa hid in the x during this statement. Similar to Beatrice.

... are we sure that those two theories are different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
"ShKanon scum"? Tell me where those bullies are and I'll gladly support you; I like arguing with Rosatricers.
Basically everywhere in the english Umineko "community" except here. No point in going against it, if others prefer an empty story about nothing and more than 80% of pure filler-material, let them have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
KnownNoMore discusses the EP1 5th twilight in detail in his third video, at 23:10. The explanation is about 10 minutes if you can stomach him that long. You might want to know ahead of time that he does use Nanjo as an accomplice for this twilight as well as in his overall theory.
1st theory (that he doesn't support himself): Fake-death drug? Wasn't there something about drugs and all, scientific stuff and all... one of the Knox's.
Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!!
And it's mighty nice that Nanjo just left him conveniently alive because he's not a killer, it's like the meta-world has influence over him. Like, this theory is trying to go for realistic behaviour and such, right?

2nd theory: ... oh rly, he just happened to snatch one of the stakes? Just one? Not more? To, you know, prevent more stake killing? Since he knew about their location, as noted by KnowNoMore himself.
And even more important: Rosa didn't relocate them for "personal use"? Unknown variables my ass, you can carry the stakes, if you want to kill with the stakes, you better at least have them at hand or hide them somewhere... heck, his first one makes more sense. But let's take his 2nd theory for the following statement that is now, thanks to the might of KnowNoMore, able to live as red: Rosa is f*ckin' retarded. Oh wait. Kanon too. Ah yes, and still the fake-death-drug issue.


Btw.: thanks for your translations, Wanderer.

Then let's ignore the RosaBAKA-theories for now (a semantical cheat alâ Shkanon still seems like the best bet for Rosatrice.. they can choose between Kanon=/=Yoshiya and playing with the definition of alive, dead, human ... JUST LIKE SHKANON), you folks mentioned something very interesting. About the stories having been written AFTER the incident?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan
I mean, in EP8 was still have the whole "No one is to blame" spin in Battler's game. Sacrificing one's self to be a scapegoat comes up too. We also have the fact that Ange did not appear in Yasu's tales, something Yasu would not have been able to know about until much closer to the date of the conference, not enough time to have written those stories before the banquet anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ootsuki, EP4
Later on, it was confirmed that a smilar message bottle had been recovered from the nearby ocean on the day of the accident by the police in their search for lost articles, and this caused a sensation.It seems that, due to evidence from the surrounding area and the fact that the bottle was sealed, the police had decided that it's likelihood of being a fabrication was low and that it had been abandoned no earlier than a few days before the accident.
So either we didn't see the "original bottle"-stories or... well. Ryukishi, it happens to the best of us.

Unless it was actually known for about a week that Ange is going to be sick and Yasu just changed it to "suddenly, on this day, she got sick" to add credibility to the story. Why?
...
Why do you ask? It's When they Cry. Since the bottles are more of an emotional ventil for Yasu an addition like that seems pointless. And probably is.

Was it said somewhere in EP4 or EP8 (therefore, outside the catbox) when Ange got sick? I thought that it said the same as EP1, so on a very short notice, but I might be wrong.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 11:25.
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:20   Link #30890
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
... are we sure that those two theories are different?
When you can just make up what definitions mean on the fly, it's fairly easy for random things to run together because it's just as easy as anything else.

Changing, for example, the definition of "human" causes a number of unforseen problems by opening up the possibility of someone who is human not being counted as such and something that is not human being counted as one. This is a problem Shkanon itself runs into, but it's slightly better-defined in that instance (though still potentially problematic if you think about it too hard).

So yes, if the definition of "human" somehow permits a seagull to be human, then you can in fact say it's a human... and possibly also say it's not a human at other times, by just changing which definition of "human" you're using.

It ain't even remotely sporting, fair, or proper of course.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:01   Link #30891
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Yasu, ladies an gentlemen:

Spoiler for Yasu, really:


And yup, that's Yasu
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:03   Link #30892
qno2
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When you can just make up what definitions mean on the fly, it's fairly easy for random things to run together because it's just as easy as anything else.
Indeed, which is why I noted that I don't really see a difference in the approach of both theories, in reference to how Rosatrice-theorists claim to follow the truth. KnowNoMore's explanations haven't convinced me in this case since there's already a red that might prove to be quite the problem. Sure, NOW we could argue about the nature of the "standard" that determines what counts as "unknown" - by "normal" standards or mystery standards. If we use "mystery standards" it basically allows any kind of drugs one could think of, therefore fake-death-drugs are fair play. If we start thinking this way, then this entire rule is completely pointless by default. If however we apply "normal" standards... then a fake-death-drug looks like a violation to me.

So in the end they'd need to use the exact same 'twisted' (non-)logic as for Shkanon (adding to that... Shkanon is a limited-use fake-death-drug in it's execution anyway, basically there's no way out for them, they'll use the exact same solution with different characters), AND they blatantly ignore the narrative at times. Doesn't really look good for Rosatrice in that case if you ask me.


Unless anyone else can think of theory that makes Rosatrice work in this case and that doesn't use the exact same reasoning of Shkanon and doesn't violate existing red I'd say that Rosatrice has kinda failed in its goal to provide a 'better' solution, at least for this twilight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
Changing, for example, the definition of "human" causes a number of unforseen problems by opening up the possibility of someone who is human not being counted as such and something that is not human being counted as one. This is a problem Shkanon itself runs into, but it's slightly better-defined in that instance (though still potentially problematic if you think about it too hard).

So yes, if the definition of "human" somehow permits a seagull to be human, then you can in fact say it's a human... and possibly also say it's not a human at other times, by just changing which definition of "human" you're using.

It ain't even remotely sporting, fair, or proper of course.
Reminds me of the fears I had starting from EP3 - when I noticed the difference between Battler's demand of "There are no more than 18 persons" and Beatrice response, a tad later, "There are no more than 18 HUMANS". So I thought about the difference (even if this might be just the choice of words that Witch-Hunt decided to use) and obviously arrived at Shannon-Sayo, Kanon-Yoshiya (wasn't ready for Shkanon myself back then), both having two "persons". My fear was however, that this would be exploited and used on any random person.
"Genji is dead, Ronove still kicking."
"Kumasawa is dead, hi Virgilia!"
Those two wouldn't have been too bad compared to other possibilites...

"Rosa is dead, Mystical Creature X runs about."
"Gohda is dead, now he is the fantastical cook!"

Meaning that any number of "xxx is dead"-truths would've been pointless for everyone, claiming that they had a second name, a second nature, or 'cuz I say so lol'.

So in retrospect... as boring and easy (for Ryukishi) the solution is, it could've been worse. He used this cheap trick for the lowest amount of humans possible, 1, and at least made it work in the narrative (instead of being a completely random solution... like Gohda).

I suppose we've been warned with "No Dine, No Knox, No Fair."

@Joeyscraggy: He/She looks androgynous enough I guess.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:07   Link #30893
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Technically speaking, it is possible to say that "xxx is dead" is pointless for everyone. I suppose some theories of Fake Murder Games could even turn on that very point.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:24   Link #30894
qno2
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Personally I've thought that the games are "fake", or at least ambiguous, until the red forces a decision (of course, this assumes that whenever 'xxx is dead' is said, that it's not a lie/copout) and the lid to the box is opened. Let's take EP3 - at the end more or less every normal person that "died" received a red (with the one known loophole of course) stating this.
But until this red was said, they could've been alive the whole time, it might've been a light hearted story about a fake-murder-game at the start. The red retroactively (!), similar to the first logic-error-battle in EP6, forces a decision.

Puts the red for "Because of you, Ushiromiya Battler, people die" in a whole new light; especially if you consider that 1986 would've happened anyway, if we choose to believe in Lions world, so the blame for the "actual" (... as actual as it gets) event can't be with him, he's neither there nor the cataclyst for anything.

Because he demanded this kind of red, they actually die - he turned the gameboards into massacres. Instead of believing.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 15:14.
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Old 2012-10-18, 15:05   Link #30895
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
"ShKanon scum"? Tell me where those bullies are and I'll gladly support you; I like arguing with Rosatricers.
Those guys aren't even worth your time XD

Quote:
KnownNoMore discusses the EP1 5th twilight in detail in his third video, at 23:10. The explanation is about 10 minutes if you can stomach him that long. You might want to know ahead of time that he does use Nanjo as an accomplice for this twilight as well as in his overall theory.
I really like how he goes bersek against the Shkannon theory and spends entire minutes of his video calling it impossible and would go as far as using diagrams(!) to prove it when his own explanation is like an aspull pulled out of an ass' ass.

And I mean exactly that first twilight. A death drug? Makeup? Seriously? I mean, okay man, you may not like Shkanon, but try to live with it. I won't say anything as arrogant as 'it totally violates Knox', just that I fell from my chair when I watched it.

(P.S: I think the most hilarious one was that video about Our Confessions where he calls himself one of the few enlighted ones.)

Quote:
By the way, a cute red against Rosatrice: I keep my promises. "Mom of the year" is a serial promise-breaker. Anyway, I brought this one up a while ago to KnownNoMore and he said that the red was not a general statement- that it was only talking about the promise that the murders would stop if the epitaph was solved. How he interprets it that way, I have no idea.
Oh, so suddenly we can twist and bend eeeeverything in whatever way we like so that it can match whatever we want to pull out of our butt, why is this not surprising? (No, seriously, Ryukishi does that too, but his case is a bit ... hmm... les paranoid because he actually did write the stuff)

No, but seriously, I'm convinced that even if you showed a red statement by Ryukishi himself verifying Shkanon, that guy would still manage to find a way round it. Ryukishi is part of the Illuminati or something...
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Old 2012-10-18, 15:23   Link #30896
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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Yasu, ladies an gentlemen:

Spoiler for Yasu, really:


And yup, that's Yasu
Well I never. They actually showed her! What a shock. She looks very much like Lion.

I find the pale (possibly blonde) hair hard to accept, but then, many of the Umineko characters are presented with hair colours they don't actually have.
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Old 2012-10-18, 15:35   Link #30897
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She looks more like a Lion-Claire to me, so it could be white....
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Old 2012-10-18, 16:03   Link #30898
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Yup. They completely fucked up Yasu's appearance just like I said they would.
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Old 2012-10-18, 16:38   Link #30899
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Do the Van Dine rules presented in EP7 apply to the Rokkenjima gameboards?
Well, I personally think they are not in effect, and that the "servants can't be culprits" was ... how to put this ... a sort of tease about the sentimentality of such rules. I also don't remember where, but didn't Bern have a line questioning whether Beato's gameboard could withstand the harsher restrictions of Van Dine?

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
What would make Yasu the head over Krauss anyways?
If you believe the EP7 scenario, Kinzo left a will specifying "whoever solves this epitaph", and Gensawajo seems pretty confident that the document, probably backed up by their word and being able to present the VIP room (....maaybe) will be enough to not have to worry about what Krauss has to say.

It doesn't matter too much, though, 'cause Yasu quickly decides against rustling any jimmies.
"I don't want the headship ... Krauss can have that job."
"...well okay. BUT YOU'LL ALWAYS BE THE TRUE MASTER TO USSSSS."

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Lord only knows why I would bother defending this other than fun, and I haven't seen that thing either, but let's do it, Ryukishi-style*:
Oh my glob, STAY AMAZING, RENALL.

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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
On a lighter note, I've found the manuscript of Land of the Golden Witch. Totally legit.
SEEMS LEGIT, INDEED.

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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Basically everywhere in the english Umineko "community" except here. No point in going against it, if others prefer an empty story about nothing and more than 80% of pure filler-material, let them have it.
...really? I know KnownoMore has a fair amount of people who are wowed by at the least, his thoroughness, and like the theory, but ... did these people just NOT read the same Dawn that we did..? I pretty actively dislike Shkanon as "the" solution, but the Love Duel just does not allow me to read it any other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
So either we didn't see the "original bottle"-stories or... well. Ryukishi, it happens to the best of us.

Unless it was actually known for about a week that Ange is going to be sick and Yasu just changed it to "suddenly, on this day, she got sick" to add credibility to the story. Why?
...
Why do you ask? It's When they Cry. Since the bottles are more of an emotional ventil for Yasu an addition like that seems pointless. And probably is.

Was it said somewhere in EP4 or EP8 (therefore, outside the catbox) when Ange got sick? I thought that it said the same as EP1, so on a very short notice, but I might be wrong.
I don't think a specific time-frame was mentioned on either Ange getting sick (I got the impression it was just a few days, at most), or Battler returning to his fathers household. It's not so much the idea that a change could have been made that's problematic, but that the first two bottles are handwritten, presumably not covered in scratch0outs and edits, and is described as being a "massive" amount of text.

When these things were written is one of those things everyone just ... has their own feeling about. One thing we can agree upon, though, is that we definitely are NOT reading the same text that was found in those bottles. For firsties, not a single EP is framing itself like a 9-year old's diary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Yasu, ladies an gentlemen:

Spoiler for Yasu, really:


And yup, that's Yasu
Huh ... well, honestly surprised they finally gave something. Really surprised by the decision to go with the Lion-looking blonde hair, though like most of the other humans, I'm still 99.99% certain she's supposed to have black hair not worth noting in and of itself.
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Old 2012-10-18, 17:08   Link #30900
Kiltias
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Thought I share this:
Found it interesting, not believing it though.

Disregard the Rosa part.
Quote:
ve bene listening to all the soundtracks and its all about maria. I mean even in ep 4 the bunny girls were killing them all I mean the whole umineko is maria from when she was young to the events in umineko, then to the maybe maria after the event=ange 98 is maria. even all the ending point to it being marias story. but r07 has told us it was rosa in the story many times, in ep 2 kanon says its rosa, and rosa blames kanon, who doesnt exist by the way, in ep 7 maria says that rosa killed them all, and in ep 7 it was rosa who shot first. To me umineko is a story of maria's fantasy's and the events in umineko just happen to look like a murder mystery, yes if you look at it like a mystery its rosa, but if you look at the whole 8 umineko series, its maria from begginng to end. Her diary is the foundation for it all.

Ange meeting Maria in the golden land also seems like an inner turmoil to me of her child self and her adult self. Turmoil reason being the realization her mother isn't a witch/beatrice (as in a real witch).Which is the reason Rosa fades away again and child Maria freaking out. I always wondered why Sakutaro appeared to Ange when it was Marias friend. It was her inner self recollecting the memories of her lonesome childhood wanting a friend resulting from the loss of Eva and being bullied in school giving birth to Sakutaro once more. Becoming Ange-Beatrice is actually the story of Maria thus her transformation to AB is the portrayal of this. Thus beatrice isn't merely a Killer but also refers to the "King" of the story, Anges/Marias transformation is thus the final straw to show: It's her story, its her fantasy.Ange just relived it all again.

thats the answer, kinda like the alternate reality in higurashi when they show rena older like 20 years old and it was the first episode of higurashi no naku koro ni kai, the first episode

i mean you have ange loning for her beloved friend never getting to see him, she finds the doll and i think it triggers her memories of being young and remebering that all that magic was hers to begin with.
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I pretty actively dislike Shkanon as "the" solution, but the Love Duel just does not allow me to read it any other way.
My only doubts are due to the Cheese Riddle.
Since I'm not sure regarding posting images of the novel I'll just quote:
"I figured it was too easy, so I guess I tried to twist it too far."
"Battlers answer is smaller than the one in the book, Is Battler right?"
"Yes he is right."
"Battler reached a far better answer than three by thinking of the problem as a riddle.Erika had already known both answers and had even spotted a mistake made by the book"

Just sounds to me like as if Ryukishi kinda implies that while there is an actual truth which is correct, there is also another truth that is correct and far better when overthinking the obvious and seeing the mistakes to reach a conclusion that is superior than the actual one.

Which is why I think there are two answers to Umineko.
Shkanon and something else.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-18 at 17:57.
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