2012-10-18, 01:53 | Link #30881 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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I hope it's alright if I barge into the discussion like this. It's a question that has been bugging me for a while and I'm probably just missing the obvious solution. I mean, Rosatrice is so popular that they couldn't have overlooked something this obvious. Because this doesn't really relate to the current topic here, I'll just put it into spoiler-tags to not be an eyesore.
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2012-10-18, 02:02 | Link #30882 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Yeah, I'm curious to see how he explains that one too. I'm at the second twilight of EP1 in my viewing of it, so I'll tell you when I get there. It's probably just as stupid as his ridiculous interpretations of the love trial and the Yasu story, though.
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2012-10-18, 02:12 | Link #30883 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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As I said, to my shame I haven't watched it at all...
Maybe I should add: sure, there is something about an illness for Kanon... we could think, right? Rosatrice is disregarding the entirety of EP7 anyway. Can't go about picking only the "fitting" stuff now can we? And after all if Shkanon doesn't apply the "illness" affects Shannon. 'sides, it's not portrayed as an "illness" that would cause death anytime (though we could argue about it due to the lack of information, sure; heck we can't be sure whether the author, Yasu, was really the child from 19 years ago, assuming that it existed in the first place, but that's primetalk), but as an injury that made love out of Yasu's perspective impossible. "Just adopt some", jeez. On a lighter note, I've found the manuscript of Land of the Golden Witch. Totally legit. ... I sure hope nobody took that seriously. @Drifloon: if you don't mind, what is the general gist of his explanations? Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 03:08. |
2012-10-18, 06:55 | Link #30885 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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KnownNoMore discusses the EP1 5th twilight in detail in his third video, at 23:10. The explanation is about 10 minutes if you can stomach him that long. You might want to know ahead of time that he does use Nanjo as an accomplice for this twilight as well as in his overall theory. By the way, a cute red against Rosatrice: I keep my promises. "Mom of the year" is a serial promise-breaker. Anyway, I brought this one up a while ago to KnownNoMore and he said that the red was not a general statement- that it was only talking about the promise that the murders would stop if the epitaph was solved. How he interprets it that way, I have no idea. |
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2012-10-18, 06:56 | Link #30886 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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This makes Yasu someone who has stopped being a servant and it's just posing as one. Agatha Christie used a similar technique in one of her mystery to have the servant being the culprit. |
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2012-10-18, 07:54 | Link #30887 | |
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2012-10-18, 08:42 | Link #30888 | ||
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"Survivor" as used in the context of this red refers not to actual physically living people, but to people believed to be alive based upon the scenario presented! In the same manner, "body" or "corpse" can refer to the physical body of an individual without specifically stating, even though it implies, their life or death status! Rosa was not believed to be a survivor, and thus is not included as a "survivor," but she wasn't "dead" either. Also "human" doesn't refer to a living human being, but to an individual perceived to be human, which Rosa would not be, because she is a dick she is believed to be dead. Alternatively, Rosa was a survivor with an alibi of "being dead," but was not a human because (personality death/not believed to be human because thought dead/is actually a lizard-person in disguise, which is why we never saw Kinzo's first wife). * By which I mean cheat semantically. Quote:
It's probably better to just pretend that rule isn't even being considered.
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2012-10-18, 10:41 | Link #30889 | |||||
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Thanks to your new definition of "human" I'm thinking whether I should present the Joe the Mighty Seagull of Sadness who was perceived to be human-theory. (finally a theory that refers to the title of this friggin' series!) It's also notable how your semantic definition of "human" actually promotes Shkanon. The other aspect, of being neither dead nor alive, would actually fit quite well with "that old equation" (18>x>19) - Rosa hid in the x during this statement. Similar to Beatrice. ... are we sure that those two theories are different? Quote:
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Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!! And it's mighty nice that Nanjo just left him conveniently alive because he's not a killer, it's like the meta-world has influence over him. Like, this theory is trying to go for realistic behaviour and such, right? 2nd theory: ... oh rly, he just happened to snatch one of the stakes? Just one? Not more? To, you know, prevent more stake killing? Since he knew about their location, as noted by KnowNoMore himself. And even more important: Rosa didn't relocate them for "personal use"? Unknown variables my ass, you can carry the stakes, if you want to kill with the stakes, you better at least have them at hand or hide them somewhere... heck, his first one makes more sense. But let's take his 2nd theory for the following statement that is now, thanks to the might of KnowNoMore, able to live as red: Rosa is f*ckin' retarded. Oh wait. Kanon too. Ah yes, and still the fake-death-drug issue. Btw.: thanks for your translations, Wanderer. Then let's ignore the RosaBAKA-theories for now (a semantical cheat alâ Shkanon still seems like the best bet for Rosatrice.. they can choose between Kanon=/=Yoshiya and playing with the definition of alive, dead, human ... JUST LIKE SHKANON), you folks mentioned something very interesting. About the stories having been written AFTER the incident? Quote:
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Unless it was actually known for about a week that Ange is going to be sick and Yasu just changed it to "suddenly, on this day, she got sick" to add credibility to the story. Why? ... Why do you ask? It's When they Cry. Since the bottles are more of an emotional ventil for Yasu an addition like that seems pointless. And probably is. Was it said somewhere in EP4 or EP8 (therefore, outside the catbox) when Ange got sick? I thought that it said the same as EP1, so on a very short notice, but I might be wrong. Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 11:25. |
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2012-10-18, 13:20 | Link #30890 |
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When you can just make up what definitions mean on the fly, it's fairly easy for random things to run together because it's just as easy as anything else.
Changing, for example, the definition of "human" causes a number of unforseen problems by opening up the possibility of someone who is human not being counted as such and something that is not human being counted as one. This is a problem Shkanon itself runs into, but it's slightly better-defined in that instance (though still potentially problematic if you think about it too hard). So yes, if the definition of "human" somehow permits a seagull to be human, then you can in fact say it's a human... and possibly also say it's not a human at other times, by just changing which definition of "human" you're using. It ain't even remotely sporting, fair, or proper of course.
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2012-10-18, 14:03 | Link #30892 | ||
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So in the end they'd need to use the exact same 'twisted' (non-)logic as for Shkanon (adding to that... Shkanon is a limited-use fake-death-drug in it's execution anyway, basically there's no way out for them, they'll use the exact same solution with different characters), AND they blatantly ignore the narrative at times. Doesn't really look good for Rosatrice in that case if you ask me. Unless anyone else can think of theory that makes Rosatrice work in this case and that doesn't use the exact same reasoning of Shkanon and doesn't violate existing red I'd say that Rosatrice has kinda failed in its goal to provide a 'better' solution, at least for this twilight. Quote:
"Genji is dead, Ronove still kicking." "Kumasawa is dead, hi Virgilia!" Those two wouldn't have been too bad compared to other possibilites... "Rosa is dead, Mystical Creature X runs about." "Gohda is dead, now he is the fantastical cook!" Meaning that any number of "xxx is dead"-truths would've been pointless for everyone, claiming that they had a second name, a second nature, or 'cuz I say so lol'. So in retrospect... as boring and easy (for Ryukishi) the solution is, it could've been worse. He used this cheap trick for the lowest amount of humans possible, 1, and at least made it work in the narrative (instead of being a completely random solution... like Gohda). I suppose we've been warned with "No Dine, No Knox, No Fair." @Joeyscraggy: He/She looks androgynous enough I guess. |
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2012-10-18, 14:24 | Link #30894 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Personally I've thought that the games are "fake", or at least ambiguous, until the red forces a decision (of course, this assumes that whenever 'xxx is dead' is said, that it's not a lie/copout) and the lid to the box is opened. Let's take EP3 - at the end more or less every normal person that "died" received a red (with the one known loophole of course) stating this.
But until this red was said, they could've been alive the whole time, it might've been a light hearted story about a fake-murder-game at the start. The red retroactively (!), similar to the first logic-error-battle in EP6, forces a decision. Puts the red for "Because of you, Ushiromiya Battler, people die" in a whole new light; especially if you consider that 1986 would've happened anyway, if we choose to believe in Lions world, so the blame for the "actual" (... as actual as it gets) event can't be with him, he's neither there nor the cataclyst for anything. Because he demanded this kind of red, they actually die - he turned the gameboards into massacres. Instead of believing. Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-18 at 15:14. |
2012-10-18, 15:05 | Link #30895 | |||
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And I mean exactly that first twilight. A death drug? Makeup? Seriously? I mean, okay man, you may not like Shkanon, but try to live with it. I won't say anything as arrogant as 'it totally violates Knox', just that I fell from my chair when I watched it. (P.S: I think the most hilarious one was that video about Our Confessions where he calls himself one of the few enlighted ones.) Quote:
No, but seriously, I'm convinced that even if you showed a red statement by Ryukishi himself verifying Shkanon, that guy would still manage to find a way round it. Ryukishi is part of the Illuminati or something...
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2012-10-18, 15:23 | Link #30896 | |
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I find the pale (possibly blonde) hair hard to accept, but then, many of the Umineko characters are presented with hair colours they don't actually have. |
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2012-10-18, 16:38 | Link #30899 | |||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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If you believe the EP7 scenario, Kinzo left a will specifying "whoever solves this epitaph", and Gensawajo seems pretty confident that the document, probably backed up by their word and being able to present the VIP room (....maaybe) will be enough to not have to worry about what Krauss has to say. It doesn't matter too much, though, 'cause Yasu quickly decides against rustling any jimmies. "I don't want the headship ... Krauss can have that job." "...well okay. BUT YOU'LL ALWAYS BE THE TRUE MASTER TO USSSSS." Quote:
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When these things were written is one of those things everyone just ... has their own feeling about. One thing we can agree upon, though, is that we definitely are NOT reading the same text that was found in those bottles. For firsties, not a single EP is framing itself like a 9-year old's diary. Huh ... well, honestly surprised they finally gave something. Really surprised by the decision to go with the Lion-looking blonde hair, though like most of the other humans, I'm still 99.99% certain she's supposed to have black hair not worth noting in and of itself. |
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2012-10-18, 17:08 | Link #30900 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Thought I share this:
Found it interesting, not believing it though. Disregard the Rosa part. Quote:
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Since I'm not sure regarding posting images of the novel I'll just quote: "I figured it was too easy, so I guess I tried to twist it too far." "Battlers answer is smaller than the one in the book, Is Battler right?" "Yes he is right." "Battler reached a far better answer than three by thinking of the problem as a riddle.Erika had already known both answers and had even spotted a mistake made by the book" Just sounds to me like as if Ryukishi kinda implies that while there is an actual truth which is correct, there is also another truth that is correct and far better when overthinking the obvious and seeing the mistakes to reach a conclusion that is superior than the actual one. Which is why I think there are two answers to Umineko. Shkanon and something else. Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-18 at 17:57. |
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