AnimeSuki Forums

TnAdct1 · 2013-11-23, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichuki

If they keep this up there will be more contestants than voters. For next year I hope they bring better policies, since I like AST so much I don't want it gone.

First policy that needs to be placed IMO: Franchises that have already won most retire to give new blood a chance (I'm looking at you Madoka, Saki, and Rozen Maiden

).

Triple_R · 2013-11-23, 19:19

J-SaiMoe is already more inviting to "new blood" than other moe competitions are, including ISML.

J-SaiMoe's rule of "Must have been featured in an anime property of the last calender year" generally limits how long/frequently any one series or character can be dominant for.

As much as people complain about Saki and/or Madoka Magica, I'm not convinced that their absence would increase vote totals. If anything, I think it could be the opposite. Let's face it - Most voters don't seem to care about most of the new girls. In 2012, the Final 8 was 6 Saki girls and two old KugRie standbys (Shana and Louise, IIRC). This year, Watashi was the only true newcomer to have a truly good run, and old standby Kuroneko was probably the strongest girl not from Madoka Magica.

To a degree, J-SaiMoe has much the same problem as ISML has - Voters tend to stick to older favorites over newcomers. When it comes to an issue like that, you can only hope that some new show and new characters will really catch on with moe fans/voters.

npal · 2013-11-23, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnAdct1

First policy that needs to be placed IMO: Franchises that have already won most retire to give new blood a chance (I'm looking at you Madoka, Saki, and Rozen Maiden

).

I disagree on that. Unlike ISML, Saimoe already disqualifies any character that didn't appear in an anime in the previous year. If a franchise is still running each year, it should be eligible for entry, despite having won a championship or not, in the previous years. If anything, the other contests should pick that specific Saimoe policy. I'm neither for your suggestion, nor for ISML's "everyone's included, plus their grandma" rule. I consider Saimoe to be a happy medium in that situation.

Triple_R · 2013-11-23, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by npal

I disagree on that. Unlike ISML, Saimoe already disqualifies any character that didn't appear in an anime in the previous year. If a franchise is still running each year, it should be eligible for entry, despite having won a championship or not, in the previous years. If anything, the other contests should pick that specific Saimoe policy. I'm neither for your suggestion, nor for ISML's "everyone's included, plus their grandma" rule. I consider Saimoe to be a happy medium in that situation.

I agree. It's a happy medium between giving new girls a real chance, while still giving girls from more successful/longer-running anime shows the added opportunity that they probably deserve (since successful/long-running shows tend to speak to well-received characters).

Coldlight · 2013-11-23, 21:38

*cue Kalafina - Hikari Furu (Falling Light)*
Congratulations to Madoka Kaname for winning Saimoe 2013.

The benevolent light of hope shines upon all who both wished for and believed in her to win. As for me, I went 'All in' and had a fun, cardboard-filled night.

Still, no regrets. Sayaka already went as far as anyone could ever go without becoming champion, and even kept up with Madoka's tense 10-vote lead for the first several hours of the match.

My thanks go to my fellow stalwart Sayaka fans and everyone who supported Sayaka at some point in this tournament; the relative outpouring of support I saw for her compared to 2011 has already made me happy more than once.

No thanks for those who would continue to deny her any shred of respect by indirectly claiming that Sayaka can't have at least 190+ core supporters and insisting that there had to be a sizeable pile of anti-voters at play in there somewhere.

The aftermath:

Images

at the end of the road

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Sayaka may have lost, but even for this outcome I still have a piece of music in store for those of us who wished for her to win. (sorry, no video)

Spoiler for Eri Kitamura - My Singing:

TL;DR…

partial TL of lyrics segment

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Almost as if it was for everyone who supported her.

Houreki · 2013-11-23, 23:49

Well, since this is the first year I know about the Saimoe, I was really exited about it the whole year even though the low votes and all the new rules which I still don't understand, but I'll hope for the next year's saimoe.

Hachiko · 2013-11-24, 00:04

One more thing before I exit for the year...this.

Spoiler for Saimoe 2013:

Aya Reiko · 2013-11-24, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree. It's a happy medium between giving new girls a real chance, while still giving girls from more successful/longer-running anime shows the added opportunity that they probably deserve (since successful/long-running shows tend to speak to well-received characters).

Also agreed, the qualification system works plenty well as is. It gives newcomers a better chance overall.

The big problem is that the voting system is badly out of date and desperately needs to be redesigned.

Ichuki · 2013-11-24, 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To a degree, J-SaiMoe has much the same problem as ISML has - Voters tend to stick to older favorites over newcomers. When it comes to an issue like that, you can only hope that some new show and new characters will really catch on with moe fans/voters.

I do think J-Saimoe voters tend to stick older series too. Hence that's why I think Rozen may have a comeback or ends up being slightly weaker but does good anyways. Plus if the voters doesn't really stick with older favourites I think Saki and Madoka's performance would be worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree. It's a happy medium between giving new girls a real chance, while still giving girls from more successful/longer-running anime shows the added opportunity that they probably deserve (since successful/long-running shows tend to speak to well-received characters).

This is my main reason why I like AST a lot to be honest.

spirits having flown · 2013-11-24, 01:16

Congratulations to the pink haired Puella Magi for winning this year's Saimoe Tournament. It was a well-fought match and no matter what the result was, I still consider my favorite, Sayaka, a winner as well...

Spoiler for Kitaeri thanks you!:

Feedback:
- have all anime be grouped according the the season they appeared...then have each character from that season compete against each other in the prelims. Top 32 of each season will enter the main round.
- only new anime that aired during the year should be allowed to participate "what complicated this a bit was when OVAs and movies were also considered hence return contestants)
- characters in the Top 16 of every Saimoe should have their separate bracket like a Champions' League of sorts, so long as we give new anime a chance

Wanderer · 2013-11-24, 02:37

Congrats to Madoka for the crown. It's a GOOD END for me, even if it's not the best.

As for another tournament, I've never paid any attention to any of them but AST. I wouldn't mind seeing a new one take over for it, though.

Important things:
1- It should be international, of course, but it should include a strong Japanese following. I feel like it lacks authenticity if not.
2- It can't be too drawn out. Single elimination, or something like it, is critical for the tournament to remain exciting. The repechage as it was run this year was awful.
3- Use AST's qualifying criteria. Only current shows allowed, but don't punish a series or character for winning; it's too contrived.
4- A more easily secured voting system. Rampant cheating ruins the fun.

For a "second chance" system, I was thinking something like this:

The tournament is split into 6 main brackets and 2 survival brackets. Let's say that a standard match for round 1 is between 3 girls.

First, the 6 main brackets do normal matches.

Then, a "survival runoff" for all the girls that didn't advance is held. It works a lot like the AST preliminaries, where the voters get multiple votes. There are 6 survival slots to be had (3 for each survival bracket) and voters get that number (6) of votes for the survival runoff. Everyone who doesn't earn a slot is eliminated. Then the 6 runoff survivors are distributed randomly to the 2 survival brackets and have their 2 respective 3-way survival matches.

This way, of all the girls that lost in round 1, only 2 of them will continue to round 2 of the survival brackets. Only the truly worthy will survive.

For the round 2 losers (let's say they were also 3-way matches) there will only be 4 available slots (because each survival bracket will have had 1 girl advance during round 1 to fill a spot for the round 2 match). But it will work otherwise just the same, where losers from the current round will fill up the available slots in the survival brackets, and then immediately play off. After the round 2 survival matches, only 2 girls that have lost before will still be alive. And so on to round 3.

I think this format would provide for some very exciting matches, because only the strongest losers will get into the survival bracket, and only 2 will ever advance each round.

Top 8 is done normally, like in AST.

Also, with a few number tweaks the survival bracket system could be adapted easily from <6 normal, 2 survival, top 8> to <5 normal, 3 survival, top 8> or <12 normal, 4 survival, top 16> or however we'd want to do it.

That, or just keep it simple with no second chance system.

chaosprophet · 2013-11-24, 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichuki

I do think J-Saimoe voters tend to stick older series too. Hence that's why I think Rozen may have a comeback or ends up being slightly weaker but does good anyways. Plus if the voters doesn't really stick with older favourites I think Saki and Madoka's performance would be worse.

At least a few years back, something interesting you would see on AST is how being fresh makes a lot of difference. Shows that got in but aired almost a a year ago would be weaker. Strong series and characters from the past, but that returned in a year just because something small like an OVA, would be much weaker than before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

[B]1- It should be international, of course, but it should include a strong Japanese following. I feel like it lacks authenticity if not.

The problem with this point, if someone here were to organize a tournament, it would be hard to attract lots of Japanese to a tournament that wasn't made by them. Maybe after a few years when the tournament is big enough.

spirits having flown · 2013-11-24, 08:56

Even this site caught up with the Saimoe tournament. (NSFW!!!!!)

npal · 2013-11-24, 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirits having flown

Even this site caught up with the Saimoe tournament. (NSFW!!!!!)

That's what you get when your main attractions (Hirano Aya gossip and China blunders) have no interesting stuff in a while :P

RegalStar · 2013-11-24, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

[B]1- It should be international, of course, but it should include a strong Japanese following. I feel like it lacks authenticity if not.

The thing is, a lot of Japanese don't want gaijins in any tournament they're in. They feel it lacks authenticity if otherwise.

wontaek · 2013-11-24, 11:23

For almost anything people mentioned as a desirable quality in a Saimoe event, I can think/cook up something that might help it. Except for Japanese participation...........

Demi. · 2013-11-24, 13:11

As impossibly shitty as I found the results this year, it is their contest...And if they wish to limit the number of non-Japanese in their contest, then power to them. It's not intended to be an international contest, after all.

Even back during Saimoe's prime, I only recall international voters being around 20% of the voting pool. The lack of voters is not derived exclusively from the banning of international voters. Most of the Japanese voters have also lost interest. Which I believe plays a large part in the dominance the Madoka/Saki characters of recent years. The only voters who stayed around are the ones that got what they wanted. And as it stands, pretty much anyone who wasn't rooting for a Madoka character one way or the other, is going to be left pretty disappointed with the results. Only Kuroneko I can give credit to for putting up a decent fight. The rest were mere fodder in the way of the MadoMagi troupe.

On a somewhat unrelated note. Dafuq is wrong with you Japan? Choosing to side with Madoka over Homura...

wontaek · 2013-11-24, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demi.

As impossibly shitty as I found the results this year, it is their contest...And if they wish to limit the number of non-Japanese in their contest, then power to them. It's not intended to be an international contest, after all.

Even back during Saimoe's prime, I only recall international voters being around 20% of the voting pool. The lack of voters is not derived exclusively from the banning of international voters. Most of the Japanese voters have also lost interest. Which I believe plays a large part in the dominance the Madoka/Saki characters of recent years. The only voters who stayed around are the ones that got what they wanted. And as it stands, pretty much anyone who wasn't rooting for a Madoka character one way or the other, is going to be left pretty disappointed with the results. Only Kuroneko I can give credit to for putting up a decent fight. The rest were mere fodder in the way of the MadoMagi troupe.

On a somewhat unrelated note. Dafuq is wrong with you Japan? Choosing to side with Madoka over Homura...

What I observed with Japanese and Korean crowd and organizers is that there is a disconnect between subconscious desire of the crowd for international acclaim and expressed desire of the organizers to weed out voters with undesirable tendency. The organizers may have felt the international voters to be either cheating or voting mostly for "poor/bad characters", thus sought to remove them from the process. The crowds who wanted international attention felt the events to not be worth their attention when this happened. The organizers probably thought these crowds who wants international fame are unworthy to vote anyway, thus figured they would do well without them. As the voter pool shrinks, another batch of crowds felt that the event was too small to be worth their attention so they left. This reduction in voter pool revealed some extreme tendencies that used to be buried under good number of random voters. When this extreme tendencies became noticeable, the organizers again tried to remove the bad voters, and more voters left because of these extreme tendencies. This vicious negative feedback cycle continued, and thus we no longer have Best Moe Tournament and J AST is as of today. The Morale of the story, to me, is that you have to suffer through and abide by the bad people in order to have enough good people on your side. When you act to remove 10 bad people, there is good chance you might turn away 100 good people.

KanbeKotori · 2013-11-24, 14:20

Oh AST13 ended? The shitty tourney final have come to an end.

Just gonna hope next year's AST would be a fair one with no absurd rules suddenly introduced mid-way of the tourney.

Gohan78 · 2013-11-24, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnAdct1

First policy that needs to be placed IMO: Franchises that have already won most retire to give new blood a chance (I'm looking at you Madoka, Saki, and Rozen Maiden

).

I disagree. I tend to view moe competitions as sports tournaments. When a team dominates for multiple years, they become legends, like Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls.
Would you exclude Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt from the Olympics because they alread won the gold medal?

The rule that only shows which aired in the last calendar year can qualify already acts as a failsafe against a single franchise domination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichuki

I do think J-Saimoe voters tend to stick older series too. Hence that's why I think Rozen may have a comeback or ends up being slightly weaker but does good anyways. Plus if the voters doesn't really stick with older favourites I think Saki and Madoka's performance would be worse.

That's not quite true, Ichuki. Look at the Nanoha and Hayate franchises. Once they were powerhouses who had one win (Nanoha) and multiple finals (once Fate, twice Nagi) to their name. Nowadays they struggle to pass Round 1.

I think that Saimoe factions have a natural "life expectancy". When the show becomes too old and the new material is not deemed interesting, the fans abandon the ship for a new one.
For the same reason I don't expect Rozen Maiden to do very well next year. The BD sales numbers are mediocre.

2013-11-23, 19:19	Link #2702
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	J-SaiMoe is already more inviting to "new blood" than other moe competitions are, including ISML. J-SaiMoe's rule of "Must have been featured in an anime property of the last calender year" generally limits how long/frequently any one series or character can be dominant for. As much as people complain about Saki and/or Madoka Magica, I'm not convinced that their absence would increase vote totals. If anything, I think it could be the opposite. Let's face it - Most voters don't seem to care about most of the new girls. In 2012, the Final 8 was 6 Saki girls and two old KugRie standbys (Shana and Louise, IIRC). This year, Watashi was the only true newcomer to have a truly good run, and old standby Kuroneko was probably the strongest girl not from Madoka Magica. To a degree, J-SaiMoe has much the same problem as ISML has - Voters tend to stick to older favorites over newcomers. When it comes to an issue like that, you can only hope that some new show and new characters will really catch on with moe fans/voters. __________________

2013-11-23, 21:38	Link #2705
Coldlight Sayaka★Magica Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Under the piercing blue sky	cue Kalafina - Hikari Furu (Falling Light) Congratulations to Madoka Kaname for winning Saimoe 2013. The benevolent light of hope shines upon all who both wished for and believed in her to win. As for me, I went 'All in' and had a fun, cardboard-filled night. Still, no regrets. Sayaka already went as far as anyone could ever go without becoming champion, and even kept up with Madoka's tense 10-vote lead for the first several hours of the match. My thanks go to my fellow stalwart Sayaka fans and everyone who supported Sayaka at some point in this tournament; the relative outpouring of support I saw for her compared to 2011 has already made me happy more than once. No thanks for those who would continue to deny her any shred of respect by indirectly claiming that Sayaka can't have at least 190+ core supporters and insisting that there had to be a sizeable pile of anti-voters at play in there somewhere. The aftermath: Images at the end of the road Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? Sayaka may have lost, but even for this outcome I still have a piece of music in store for those of us who wished for her to win. (sorry, no video) Spoiler for Eri Kitamura - My Singing: Utsumuku kage ni kasanaru omoi Machi ni tokemagireteku Itsumo jibun ga jibun de aru tame Riyuu wo sagashite ita Dakedo hontou wa sou tanjun de Kizukeba soba ni atta Kimi ni utau yo (All for you)(My singing) Zutto utaitsuzukete iku yo (Just with you)(My singing) Zenbu dakishimete itai Kawaranai ai ga kawaru yuuki wo Kureta kara Naita kinou mo waratta kyou mo Mirai no michi ni natte Magarikado toka mizutamari toka Kitto jibun rashii mono Donna isshun no kiseki datte Tomo ni tsunaide kita ne Kimi ni utau yo (All for you)(My singing) Zutto utaitsuzukete iku yo (Just with you)(My singing) Konna ni mo afureteru no Watashi no ryoute ja tarinakute mo Kimi ga iru (All for you)(My singing) Hibike takaku tooku he (Just with you)(My singing) Dokomademo tsuzuku kara (All for you)(My singing) Massugu ni mitsumeru yo (Just with you)(My singing) Motto jouzu ni ikite ikou Nante muitenai kamo Ari no mama de ii…? Kokoro no koe mo Hitokakera utsushita sekai mo Kimi no moto he todoketai Daisuki na iro ga saite iku yo Kono basho ni Kimi ni utau yo (All for you)(My singing) Zutto utaitsuzukete iku yo (Just with you)(My singing) Dakara wasurenai de ite Tsumazuita toki wa watashi ga iru yo Hora koko ni (All for you)(My singing) Deaeta kono kimochi wo (Just with you)(My singing) Shinjitsuzuketai kara (All for you)(My singing) Ai de mitashite iku yo (Just with you)(My singing) TL;DR… partial TL of lyrics segment Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? Almost as if it was for everyone who supported her. __________________ Miracles and magic do exist. I have no regrets.

2013-11-24, 00:04	Link #2707
Hachiko The Akita Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Long Beach, CA	One more thing before I exit for the year...this. Spoiler for Saimoe 2013: __________________

2013-11-24, 11:23	Link #2716
wontaek Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Planet Earth Age: 54	For almost anything people mentioned as a desirable quality in a Saimoe event, I can think/cook up something that might help it. Except for Japanese participation........... __________________

2013-11-24, 13:11	Link #2717
Demi. Ass connoisseur Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Florida Age: 37	As impossibly shitty as I found the results this year, it is their contest...And if they wish to limit the number of non-Japanese in their contest, then power to them. It's not intended to be an international contest, after all. Even back during Saimoe's prime, I only recall international voters being around 20% of the voting pool. The lack of voters is not derived exclusively from the banning of international voters. Most of the Japanese voters have also lost interest. Which I believe plays a large part in the dominance the Madoka/Saki characters of recent years. The only voters who stayed around are the ones that got what they wanted. And as it stands, pretty much anyone who wasn't rooting for a Madoka character one way or the other, is going to be left pretty disappointed with the results. Only Kuroneko I can give credit to for putting up a decent fight. The rest were mere fodder in the way of the MadoMagi troupe. On a somewhat unrelated note. Dafuq is wrong with you Japan? Choosing to side with Madoka over Homura... __________________

2013-11-23, 23:49	Link #2706
Houreki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Age: 29	Well, since this is the first year I know about the Saimoe, I was really exited about it the whole year even though the low votes and all the new rules which I still don't understand, but I'll hope for the next year's saimoe.

2013-11-24, 01:16	Link #2710
spirits having flown Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 42	Congratulations to the pink haired Puella Magi for winning this year's Saimoe Tournament. It was a well-fought match and no matter what the result was, I still consider my favorite, Sayaka, a winner as well... Spoiler for Kitaeri thanks you!: Feedback: - have all anime be grouped according the the season they appeared...then have each character from that season compete against each other in the prelims. Top 32 of each season will enter the main round. - only new anime that aired during the year should be allowed to participate "what complicated this a bit was when OVAs and movies were also considered hence return contestants) - characters in the Top 16 of every Saimoe should have their separate bracket like a Champions' League of sorts, so long as we give new anime a chance

2013-11-24, 02:37	Link #2711
Wanderer Goat Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima	Congrats to Madoka for the crown. It's a GOOD END for me, even if it's not the best. As for another tournament, I've never paid any attention to any of them but AST. I wouldn't mind seeing a new one take over for it, though. Important things: 1- It should be international, of course, but it should include a strong Japanese following. I feel like it lacks authenticity if not. 2- It can't be too drawn out. Single elimination, or something like it, is critical for the tournament to remain exciting. The repechage as it was run this year was awful. 3- Use AST's qualifying criteria. Only current shows allowed, but don't punish a series or character for winning; it's too contrived. 4- A more easily secured voting system. Rampant cheating ruins the fun. For a "second chance" system, I was thinking something like this: The tournament is split into 6 main brackets and 2 survival brackets. Let's say that a standard match for round 1 is between 3 girls. First, the 6 main brackets do normal matches. Then, a "survival runoff" for all the girls that didn't advance is held. It works a lot like the AST preliminaries, where the voters get multiple votes. There are 6 survival slots to be had (3 for each survival bracket) and voters get that number (6) of votes for the survival runoff. Everyone who doesn't earn a slot is eliminated. Then the 6 runoff survivors are distributed randomly to the 2 survival brackets and have their 2 respective 3-way survival matches. This way, of all the girls that lost in round 1, only 2 of them will continue to round 2 of the survival brackets. Only the truly worthy will survive. For the round 2 losers (let's say they were also 3-way matches) there will only be 4 available slots (because each survival bracket will have had 1 girl advance during round 1 to fill a spot for the round 2 match). But it will work otherwise just the same, where losers from the current round will fill up the available slots in the survival brackets, and then immediately play off. After the round 2 survival matches, only 2 girls that have lost before will still be alive. And so on to round 3. I think this format would provide for some very exciting matches, because only the strongest losers will get into the survival bracket, and only 2 will ever advance each round. Top 8 is done normally, like in AST. Also, with a few number tweaks the survival bracket system could be adapted easily from <6 normal, 2 survival, top 8> to <5 normal, 3 survival, top 8> or <12 normal, 4 survival, top 16> or however we'd want to do it. That, or just keep it simple with no second chance system.

2013-11-24, 08:56	Link #2713
spirits having flown Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 42	Even this site caught up with the Saimoe tournament. (NSFW!!!!!)

2013-11-24, 14:20	Link #2719
KanbeKotori 失礼、噛みました Join Date: Jul 2013	Oh AST13 ended? The shitty tourney final have come to an end. Just gonna hope next year's AST would be a fair one with no absurd rules suddenly introduced mid-way of the tourney. __________________ 「友達なんていない。人はすぐに裏切るし、学校っていうのは誰かを標的にしないとやってられない馬鹿共の集まり。ままごとみたいな役決めて、仲のいいふりして都合が悪くなったら知らんぷり。そんな奴らと仲良くしたいとか全然思わない。」