Sword Art Online - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Clarste]

I disagree that living is the same thing as enjoying. Some people enjoy life, some people hate life. It takes a certain kind of personality to enjoy living in reality too. That's just what it means to live.

Why do you live? To spend time with friends and loved ones? To make a lot of money? To enjoy or create art? To eat good food? To do work you can be proud of? To help others? I don't know anything about you, but surely you have some reason to live.

So what is it about the world of SAO that makes finding such a reason impossible?

[Key Board]

we're in semantics territory, so perhaps I should clarify

maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that earlier you were arguing that you can see SAO as genuine virtual life environment, and that SAO players are merely experiencing a different kind of living

I argue that this environment is too shackled. Not enough choices. That's key word: choices. With so many things restricted and pre-programmed, I disagree on calling it a online life. In fact, I have a lot of problems in calling it an online game either, because that indicates that the purpose is to have fun.

As said earlier, to me this is a virtual prison. A virtual trial. It is something that you must overcome or die. And it is a trial in which you have noticeably limited options to win.

Can people find paradise in hell? possibly. Does it make it hell something other that is not hell?

No, I don't think so.

[Dengar]

I think the argument still stands that it's up to the players whether it's hell or not.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The game is cruel to begin with. I don't think you can say it was fair to have a "impending doom" treasure room associated with anti crystal field to boot back in episode 3 like that, and Kirito only survived because he was way overleveled for the dungeon, otherwise he would have been sparkling pixels like Sachi & co. So anything can happen, and relying on past floors experience is not a good idea, while Asuna already stated things are going unpredictable back starting with floor 70.

The SAO world is fair. Know why we know? Because someone stuck in the world believes it to be fair. Now this may be Stockholm syndrome, and Kirito isn't our fairest assessor of what is / isn't fair as a definite MMO addict, but from his POV it's a fair system.

Many of the front-line fighters likely also consider it a fair system. Else they'd be with everyone else hiding in the starter cities. The fact that people are growing comfortable with the world means they've become used to it's methods, and have found ways to live there, and likely even enjoy their lives. We don't see a lot of unhappy people in the background during these crowd scenes, right?

What would be more interesting is to see if his answer changes in the new few episodes. Assuming his relationship with Asuna deepens and he finds meaning in things other than grinding solo it's possible he'll change his opinion.

Originally Posted by Key Board

we're in semantics territory, so perhaps I should clarify

maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that earlier you were arguing that you can see SAO as genuine virtual life environment, and that SAO players are merely experiencing a different kind of living

I argue that this environment is too shackled. Not enough choices. That's key word: choices. With so many things restricted and pre-programmed, I disagree on calling it a online life. In fact, I have a lot of problems in calling it an online game either, because that indicates that the purpose is to have fun.

As said earlier, to me this is a virtual prison. A virtual trial. It is something that you must overcome or die. And it is a trial in which you have noticeably limited options to win.

Can people find paradise in hell? possibly. Does it make it hell something other that is not hell?

No, I don't think so.

I think you're projecting far too much into this... honestly. The characters inside the game are not hanging themselves off the architecture, nor jumping off bridges. If it was that bad, they'd be doing so and the fatality rates would be nearer to 100%, rather than 40%.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Adigard

The characters inside the game are not... jumping off bridges.

Well, there was the leader of the Black Cats...

[relentlessflame]

Mostly posting just for this:

Originally Posted by Key Board

from what I've seen so far, SAO is consisted of

1) suicidal Cleaners that will do everything to beat the game, often, forgetting their own safety
2) people who form relationships with other players to take their mind off all the sorrow and depression
3) people who have lost their sanity and started killing other players to ease their boredom
4) beggars in the starting area which live sad uncertain lives

This sounds a lot like real life to me.

At the end of the day, people are surprisingly resilient. They can learn to adapt, survive, and even thrive to a certain extent in situations that we might otherwise think unimaginable -- think in periods of war, or under oppressive regimes. I think this is one of those situations. Episode 8 drove this point home when Kirito and Asuna started discussing about having gotten used to life in that world, and sometimes not even fully remembering what life in the real world was like. I'm sure they're not by any means the only ones in that situation. This may or may not be hell, but it's also their reality. A child born in this world (if it were possible) would not know anything else; sooner or later, after generations pass, the rules and restrictions of this world become no different than the law of gravity.

In the end, SAO is hell only in comparison to reality and because they know the difference. But how do we know that our reality isn't hell in comparison to some other reality that we aren't aware of? It's all about context.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There isn't any contradiction: considering the fact you don't feel any pain in SAO, there is no way for you to realize you are being attacked while asleep in SAO.
Therefore, pk sleep completely bypass the point, since the only way for the victim to avoid that is to wake up before being killed and forfeit on the spot.
The fact you can surrender in a duel doesn't mean it would save you from sleep pk. Much to the contrary, it means -so long you cannot do that, you are at the pk mercy-.

Originally Posted by Krono

No, you need to be awake to issue the command, so by the time you wake up from the sensation of being hit, and figure out what's happening, you're usually dead. It's possible someone waking up too soon was how they discovered the exploit existed and was being used, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be viable 9 times out of 10.

I was replying to this point:

Originally Posted by Adigard

An exploit that makes people fear falling asleep outside their rooms... as the anime has already proven multiple times that private rooms are totally safe (part of why the murder arc was such a drastic shift).

And if the SAO duel's are anything like standard MMO-fare duel's there's probably an opt-out button somewhere.

Spoiler:

The LN states you can cancel a duel with a simple vocal command.

My understanding of this is a settings option that some MMOs have that allow you to auto-block/reject duel requests. If such a thing existed, the sleep pk would've been an non-issue, since the only thing you can force someone to do by using their hands is to reply to a request, either of trade/guild or party invitation/duel request etc.

If you were referring to a forfeit button, my bad.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I was replying to this point:

My understanding of this is a settings option that some MMOs have that allow you to auto-block/reject duel requests. If such a thing existed, the sleep pk would've been an non-issue, since the only thing you can force someone to do by using their hands is to reply to a request, either of trade/guild or party invitation/duel request etc.

If you were referring to a forfeit button, my bad.

This is novel discussion and not really proper for here... but on that topic.

The LN version of this EP's duel end:

Spoiler:

Kuradeel didn't even try to look at me. He shook with both hands on the ground as if he was sick. But soon, he said with an almost creaky voice, “I resign.” He could have just said <I give up> or <I lose> in Japanese.

I don't really see a problem with the duel option. There are obviously loopholes that result in people dying, but they apparently took a year+ to find. The simple solution to avoiding sleep PK is... don't sleep in a public location. If you fall asleep in the real world in a public place you're apt to wake up in A) Jail, or B) a dumpster without your money.

SAO likely doesn't have a opt-out of duels button... that's typically a later addition to most MMO's, assuming your MMO even has such an option.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Adigard

The SAO world is fair. Know why we know? Because someone stuck in the world believes it to be fair. Now this may be Stockholm syndrome, and Kirito isn't our fairest assessor of what is / isn't fair as a definite MMO addict, but from his POV it's a fair system.

Many of the front-line fighters likely also consider it a fair system. Else they'd be with everyone else hiding in the starter cities. The fact that people are growing comfortable with the world means they've become used to it's methods, and have found ways to live there, and likely even enjoy their lives. We don't see a lot of unhappy people in the background during these crowd scenes, right?

What would be more interesting is to see if his answer changes in the new few episodes. Assuming his relationship with Asuna deepens and he finds meaning in things other than grinding solo it's possible he'll change his opinion.

I'd buy it being fair as a world if only because Kirito is an MMO addict and can judge the systems in that world. He's had a couple years to take in SAO so as a game it's probably pretty fair. Of course it's still a death trap, just a survivable one. The situation is unfair, but at least the world itself at this point seems possible to clear. Unless the guy who took 10,000 people hostage is capable of lying...

Besides whether it's a fair system or not wouldn't really matter to the front liners. If they want to get out of there and get back to their lives they have to clear this game. If it was really unfair more people might give up, but people would keep going. I'm not even sure what being fair has to do with most of this. People would be able to adapt even to an unfair situation.

I think you're projecting far too much into this... honestly. The characters inside the game are not hanging themselves off the architecture, nor jumping off bridges. If it was that bad, they'd be doing so and the fatality rates would be nearer to 100%, rather than 40%.

Interesting way to phrase it since we have seen a character do that before.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Interesting way to phrase it since we have seen A character do that before.

A single character, out of 6,000.

If the inhabitants of hell are enjoying themselves, who are outsiders to judge?

Isn't that the whole point of the show after all?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Adigard

A single character, out of 6,000.

That was the only one we saw, but chances are there were lots of players who met a similar end.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That was the only one we saw, but chances are there were lots of players who met a similar end.

Most of them probably in the first month. The one we saw was a special case because his entire group of real life friends died at the same time.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Most of them probably in the first month. The one we saw was a special case because his entire group of real life friends died at the same time.

I think 2,000 died the first month or two.

[Rising Dragon]

213 in the first day by the announcement, 2000 within the first month of gameplay, yeah.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I think 2,000 died the first month or two.

Yes, I meant that most of the suicides would likely have happened earlier rather than later.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Key Board

we're in semantics territory, so perhaps I should clarify

maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that earlier you were arguing that you can see SAO as genuine virtual life environment, and that SAO players are merely experiencing a different kind of living

I argue that this environment is too shackled. Not enough choices. That's key word: choices. With so many things restricted and pre-programmed, I disagree on calling it a online life. In fact, I have a lot of problems in calling it an online game either, because that indicates that the purpose is to have fun.

As said earlier, to me this is a virtual prison. A virtual trial. It is something that you must overcome or die. And it is a trial in which you have noticeably limited options to win.

Can people find paradise in hell? possibly. Does it make it hell something other that is not hell?

No, I don't think so.

I'm with this 100%. Nobody is staying in the current SAO because they want to, it's just due to the whims of a madman. This is no different than put into a kid's Ant Farm then becoming it's plaything. Most denizens of SAO are trying their best to adjust to what meager living they can make out in the game, but definitely hoping someday to be free to see their families, lovers and whatnot again.

[Clarste]

No one chooses to be born on Earth either. You just end up here and you can either find your own happiness or die. It's your own choice.

What you seem to be missing is the fact that SAO is only particularly dangerous when you're trying to get out. If there's anything sadistic about it, that's it. You can either risk your life with the hope of getting out, or stop trying to get out at all and live a peaceful if somewhat boring life there. This is the choice that every person trapped in there is forced to make. Do I value my old life enough to risk my current life? Based on the conversation in this episode, it seems that increasingly people are choosing not to risk their lives. Which means that they consider living there a valid option.

Is it "settling for less"? Sure, why not. We don't know everyone's circumstances, but we can grant this assumption without changing anything. But "settling for less" isn't the mark of being imprisoned or undergoing a trial, it's just another part of living. I'd argue that every single one of us "settles for less" every single day. You don't always get the person you love most, you don't always get the job you want, you can't afford to eat the best food every day. People go through that all the time.

...and since I know someone's going to mention PK, how exactly is that different from murder in real life? It's not different at all. Lock your doors and don't fall asleep in the middle of the street and you should be fine. The entire mystery arc was about Kirito and Asuna freaking out over the rules possibly being broken, to the point where they considered it more important than furthering the escape attempt, which tells you exactly how much reassurance the rules normally provide.

[justinstrife]

I think most of these posts could be moved into other threads and away from specific episode threads...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I was replying to this point:

My understanding of this is a settings option that some MMOs have that allow you to auto-block/reject duel requests. If such a thing existed, the sleep pk would've been an non-issue, since the only thing you can force someone to do by using their hands is to reply to a request, either of trade/guild or party invitation/duel request etc.

Or, you know, turn off the auto-refuse.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Mostly posting just for this:This sounds a lot like real life to me.

At the end of the day, people are surprisingly resilient. They can learn to adapt, survive, and even thrive to a certain extent in situations that we might otherwise think unimaginable -- think in periods of war, or under oppressive regimes. I think this is one of those situations. Episode 8 drove this point home when Kirito and Asuna started discussing about having gotten used to life in that world, and sometimes not even fully remembering what life in the real world was like. I'm sure they're not by any means the only ones in that situation. This may or may not be hell, but it's also their reality. A child born in this world (if it were possible) would not know anything else; sooner or later, after generations pass, the rules and restrictions of this world become no different than the law of gravity.

In the end, SAO is hell only in comparison to reality and because they know the difference. But how do we know that our reality isn't hell in comparison to some other reality that we aren't aware of? It's all about context.

interesting

SAO is really an aesop about people adapting to an oppressive environment. Some chose defiance. Some surrender to it. Some endure. Some break.

True, people can endure with unhappy situations.

But I think it's also true that given time they will always seek for better options. Inevitably change will happen or they will FORCE change to happen.

This has once again got me thinking about AccelWorld (same author. written later)

in AccelWorld, it is actually possible to not only destroy the environment, but also bend the laws of the game. In fact the whole theme of the story is to accelerate beyond set rules. This role reversal is an interesting contrast, don't you think?

Right now, part of Kirito has chose to submit to his environment, and SAO is not an sandbox game. It's quite rigid

But it would be interesting to see if eventually becomes the Neo of this Matrix and breaks the source code

That would complete the Aesop