[Manga] Can anyone Beat Itachi?

[Faktor-IV]

Originally Posted by raikage

• • Leaders aren't always stronger. With such logic, all one would have to do is break the Hokage's hand and bam! No seals = no jutsu = no longer strongest = no longer Hokage. When his (or her) hand heals in a month or so, the title will change back.

We haven't heard of co-Kage's, which would more than likely happen at least a few times if selection were based solely on strength alone.

Most tellingly, Orochimaru and the Yondaime were both considered to be candidates.
Yondaime was chosen because of his devotion to the village and its people, NOT because of his raw strength.
Were he stronger than Oro, there would be no question at all.

• I would add something else, but I have no Photoshop at the moment.

• With such logic? what logic? breaking his hand? with such logic, all one would have to do is break the Hokage's neck and bam! no Hokage but i dont know how is that even relevant. Breaking his hand and temporarily he is not the strongest? was that your point?

yes, that was Most telling. saindame considered orochimaru when he knew his ill intent for a long time. why ? cuz Stregnth is valued in naruto world.

whats even more telling is that they selected a kid in the early twenties to become Hokage.. becuz he was devoted to the village and its people? that passion and devotion couldve waited 5-10 more yrs like every other energetic young shinobi

• For the selection of the 5th, the chose were limited due to circumstance. Since both of them wasnt involved or were part of konoha for sometime the issue was which one would accept. Furthermore, the circumstance was even less favorable for thorough selection cuz they needed a immediate protection from other threats. They ended up with a compulsive gambler and a thief to become the 5th when they had a shinobi like Kakashi and Gai .


• back to the topic... As for Akatsuki, if they have a leader. Now Strip down every personality complex, and strip down different ideaology which effects selection of Hokage. What is the determing faktor to become the leader in a criminal organization?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kayess

I must say.. I have never seen such a fool as Macbrother.. or whoever is fighting with hunter..
Please.. just shut up... use your brain for a fraction of a second.. think... and you will clearly realise how WRONG you are.

Man.. why are you fighting such a stupid battle?....

Why should he shut up? I mean that's just arguing, not fighting.
And obviously we both like wasting our time arguing over stupid subject or we wouldn't even post in a Naruto forum to begin with

Originally Posted by Macbrother

We know neither their origin, location, make up, or mortality. Again, they show emotion, so what? So does Kyuubi. You didn't say anything contrary to what I was saying as I never said they didn't show emotion or had feelings, I said that fact alone is not enough to prove they would be subject or defeated by the Tsukiyomi without knowing anything else about them. Itachi knew how to harm someone like Kakashi and especially his brother, to even begin to know how to bring mental collapse to a grand summon frog is something else entirely.

You said that Summon seemed to work completely differently than human, that's precisely your point since the beginning.
And it's simply wrong, they never seemed to work differently than human in anything as far as we saw in the manga.
For the 3rd or 4th time now we did see some of Oro's snakes dying and there corpses remaining on the ground. Without even speaking of those crushed under Jiraiya's frog, Sasuke and Naruto both killed one of them in the forest of death.
Itachi knew how to hurt Sasuke but he just tortured Kakashi with pain and contrary to what you say there is no indications that these creature are differently affected by pain than regular ninja.

As for Enma, so Kishimoto didn't want to take that point to show about summon and genjutsu, so what? He's simply not in the picture at that time, not a focal point, nor did he have anything to do with the point of the moment Kishimoto was trying to get across.

Which shouldn't be the case if Enma was perfectly able to see despite the Genjutsu and help the 3rd.
As you said Kishimoto never tried to hint to the fact that these creature aren't subject to Genjutsu.
To let Enma out of the picture when the 3rd is blinded due to a Genjutsu shows clearly that he's not not in a different case. Actually you perfectly know that, that's why you answer by deciding what Kishimoto thought about that and not what the hell Enma was doing if he could see and help the 3rd.

I never said summons were incapable of taking damage; and considering the fact that the mess always disappears (like after the sannin battle) it's hard to say if they in fact do die or not.

Same as above, we saw the corpses of Oro's snakes.

And just because we haven't seen Kyuubi in a serious fight you're actually going to take a non-stance here and say you don't know? Curious you seem not to have a problem applying liberally the effects of Tsukiyomi from human to summon considering we haven't seen anything which implies it. (other than they have emotions, whoopdi-do, as does Kyuubi)

Contrary to the creature summoned, we have never seen the Kyubi being wounded or even scratched, saying that he's hurt, etc.
Beside re-read what I said, it's also perfectly possible that the Kyubi could be affected by this jutsu like any other Genjutsu.

Interesting thing about the mind and the soul by the way:
Sounds like Tsukiyomi would attack one and the same.

lol we could start a discussion about the philosophic difference between the mind and the soul, that could be funny.

But in the world of Naruto the soul was clearly showed as something real, touchable in certain case and even collectable.
If you cut a part of it the body fall apart as well.

Whereas the Tsukiyomi "only" attacks the mind throught hypnotism, if it attacked the soul directly the body of Kakashi would have been a horrible mess.
And the Tsukiyomi would be 10 time more powerful that it already is.

Actually no, that's another one of your inventions, I couldn't possibly care less whether they are effected or not, you saying "what I would like to see" is rather silly, just like you inventing the rest of your little examples that seem to relate to me, I haven't made any assumptions about any jutsu. My opinion is simply we haven't seen the crossover yet so assuming one way or the other on that jutsu is foolish.

My little example aren't relating to what you said but to the logic you use, given that we haven't seen if it's true or not yet then from your own word assuming that one way or the other about that is foolish.
Hell I can also say that Shikamaru is a woman disguised.
Whatever one say is an assumption, can Jiraiya beats Konohamaru? "We haven't seen the crossover yet so assuming one way or the other on that fight is foolish."

That's not a point, that's basically killing any possible discussion which wasn't perfectly showed. And even an already existing event can have several interpretation so you can stop to discuss about absolutely anything because it's foolish.

The manga simply didn't show a reason to think the Tsukiyomi couldn't work on a creature summoned yet.

I'm not twisting anything, some, little, same difference here. He didn't say you can resist it tremendously, he implied a small amount right? Not something like 3 times as much? Quite simply again the point here is only that someone with a stronger will or capabaility (like Kakashi) took much longer to crack, didn't even lose his conciousness immediately for that matter, and caused noticable (the eye strain, the one bead of sweat) to Itachi whereas he simply showed nothing against Sasuke.

Tremendously? Kakashi fell in the coma as well, actually Itachi didn't stop after "3 days" because that was the time he needed particulary contrary to Sasuke, that was the amount of times he decided to use since before he even started to torture Kakashi.
I didn't heard 'as long as someone has a strong personality some resistance could be made'.
As a matter of fact Zabuza wasn't weak minded which didn't stop Kakashi to hypnotize him, and Kakashi isn't weak minded either.

No, and your exaggerations are quite amusing, I might add. You love to act like I'm claiming the sannin/summon know everything, but no, I'm saying they know enough to get by and be hailed is some of the greatest living ninja in the world, you don't get that far being completely ignorant of your enemies, no? A simple basic fact like looking into the eyes of someone with a very obvious clan eye doujutsu would suffice.

I don't see how I can exagerate, your point is merely to say that they're old so they know it.
I can use that for absolutely anything.
And the Uchiha weren't enemy by the way, opponents of Konoha have more reasons to learn how to fight Konoha's clan than the ninja of Konoha have.
And again it was so obvious that Gai had to explain it to Asuma and Kurenai and that Zabuza had no idea about that either whereas he has informations about the Sharingan collected by the Mist village.
Ninja doesn't share their secrets on E-bay.

It had everything to do with his ability to deal with genjutsu, darkness, or anything else for that matter. Yes, we all know he was blinded, your point in repeating that? My point is despite being blinded he was very much able to "use his senses", find them out, and render the jutsu essentially worthless.

My point should be rather obvious given that you answered beside it again.
To be able to smell the other Hokage had nothing to do with his Genjutsu abilities.
The Genjutsu of the 1st worked perfectly and the 3rd had to use his other overall capacities to deal with the situation.*And that didn't change that his clones were badly stabbed repeatedly which would have been a real problem if he wasn't using a suicidal jutsu to begin with.

Could the 3rd fight with Itachi thanks to his overall strength without being taken by the Tsukiyomi? Yes more than probably and he already showed that he could know where were his opponents while closing his eyes for that matters.
Could the 3rd resist to the Tsukiyomi and continue to fight if he couldn't avoid the Sharingan glance? No the manga never hinted a reason for that.

No, alot of things are never said which is why we have these arguments, after all. The point is it seems logical, given how long Kakashi lasted and Itachi's slight strain, attributing all of that resistance (3 times as much) to the sharingan when Itachi said it only helps somewhat is illogical.

Same as above and it contradict directly what Itachi said about this jutsu, ie the only thing we know about it.
I don't see how it's illogival anyway.

Based on their actions and notions, do you really see Gamabunta as someone to waver easily?

I don't see Gamabunta as someone to waver easily, neither I see Kakashi like that and certainely not Sasuke when he had to figth Itachi which is basically all his life.

No, I never said they wouldn't be fooled in as much as they would be less susceptible due to their insight. Like I said before, assuming they would continually fall for exploding kage bunshin would be silly. Like the sannin won't simply have kage bunshin / kawarimi of their own to prepare for any surprises like exploding kage bunshin.

You precisely said that a Sannin would be able to recognize a Kage Bunshin because they're supposed to have a great insight.
I don't think they would "continually" fall for that, they just couldn't know if the Kage Bunshin was the real one or not and would have to deal with the situation not knowing that.
Are they able to do that? Hell yeah, they're not the Sannin for nothing.
Did they showed however that an opponent as Itachi couldn't outsmart them?
Not at all.

Besides we were talking about a summon, not the Sannin.

Indeed, the fact that he isn't and the sannin have even moreso only futher shows my point. Again, having the sharingan mattering or that there's a slight change is something of your invention, no more logical than it would be due to Kakashi's insight. The point about Orochimaru was that no he couldn't see through it but he would be prepared for it and able to deal with it with either Kage bunshin or Kawarimi of his own, same way with Itachi.

Except that Kakashi was able to do that whereas a Sannin and 2 Kage couldn't and whereas Kakashi himself couldn't tell if a clone was real or not before.

Anybody seeing a bunch of Kage Bunshin could be prepared for it, that doesn't mean that one will understand the strategy of his opponent, they don't read in each other mind, not even the Sannin.
Like I said above being a Sannin or a huge summon doesn't mean that you can't be fooled by a Kage Bunshin.
Manda fooled Gamabunta by feinting an attack in the front with his tail whereas he really attacked behind him and Gamabunta fell for that though it wasn't a so incredibly smart strategy.
__________________________________________________ _

Originally Posted by Faktor-IV

back to the topic... As for Akatsuki, if they have a leader. Now Strip down every personality complex, and strip down different ideaology which effects selection of Hokage. What is the determing faktor to become the leader in a criminal organization?

So Gatou was supposed to be the stongest among his crew?
Not only as Raikage said there isn't necessarily a boss even if it's possible but it could be simply the one who started their project.

[Faktor-IV]

Originally Posted by Hunter

__________________________________________________ _



So Gatou was supposed to be the stongest among his crew?
Not only as Raikage said there isn't necessarily a boss even if it's possible but it could be simply the one who started their project.

No one is saying there is a boss, IF there is a boss what kind of organization structure would be in placed. THat is the source of conflicting onpinons.


The Sound 5 didnt have a official leader, but Kimmaro showcased his authority by giving out orders to tatuya. Not because he was going to die and felt bad for him, not because he was the most intellgient to understand the situation at the time. It was very cut throat and simple. Not to say the scale and magnitude compares to akatsuki with this example, but this is an example we can relate in terms of Criminal Hiearchy. Power and Fear rules. Same with ITachi showing his dominance over Kisame. The leadership role have many parts to its body for well organized organization.Thus my opinion is not more probable in a specific situation then the next but for educated GUESS of probablity, it is more favorable then "There is no reason to believe that the leader is stronger than anyone else in the organization" and succumbs that statement with the limited evidence it was presented and the GENERAL structure and Hiearchy of Naruto world.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Kimimaro was indeed the official leader of the sound 5 before he was ill the 4 said so and told Sasuke he would be leader when he got the level 2 curse seal. There is no reason to not expect a hierarcy based on strength in Akatsuki. Itachi is obviously the boss of Kisame he is stronger than him and orders him around. It is however too early to say someone can beat Itachi in Akatsuki because we don't know anything else about them, we have only been introduced to them talking in the shadows. Sure there are organizations like Gatou's group that are based on who pays who and some that are based on who's the smartest but we are talking about S-ranked criminal ninjas here. Itachi is stronger than Kisame and Orochimaru they both said so. He might be the strongest and he might be midlevel we don't know. Kisame could be the weakest Akatsuki member and everyone else is just as strong as Itachi. Is that logical? No. But its too hasty to assume any of them can beat Itachi or are stronger than him and we don't even know if akatsuki has a leader.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Faktor-IV

• With such logic? what logic? breaking his hand? with such logic, all one would have to do is break the Hokage's neck and bam! no Hokage but i dont know how is that even relevant. Breaking his hand and temporarily he is not the strongest? was that your point?

yes, that was Most telling. saindame considered orochimaru when he knew his ill intent for a long time. why ? cuz Stregnth is valued in naruto world.

whats even more telling is that they selected a kid in the early twenties to become Hokage.. becuz he was devoted to the village and its people? that passion and devotion couldve waited 5-10 more yrs like every other energetic young shinobi

• For the selection of the 5th, the chose were limited due to circumstance. Since both of them wasnt involved or were part of konoha for sometime the issue was which one would accept. Furthermore, the circumstance was even less favorable for thorough selection cuz they needed a immediate protection from other threats. They ended up with a compulsive gambler and a thief to become the 5th when they had a shinobi like Kakashi and Gai .


• back to the topic... As for Akatsuki, if they have a leader. Now Strip down every personality complex, and strip down different ideaology which effects selection of Hokage. What is the determing faktor to become the leader in a criminal organization?

• That was exactly my point. Saying "the strongest is in charge, PERIOD." is quite foolish, especially in this series where true strength comes from dedication and some of the most powerful people didn't advance to Chuunin.

The Yondaime would probably have been around Kakashi's current age when he died. Just as an aside.

• Why did they pick Tsunade as the Godaime? Good question - but for some reason I don't think it's exclusively because of her power.

• What is the determining factor to become the leader in a criminal organization? Vision.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by raikage

What is the determining factor to become the leader in a criminal organization? Vision.

Here here!

[Kage-Shinobi]

Yondaime would be a good match for itachi unfortunately...........
mdr
It is pretty clear that no one is to defeat him until sasuke is strong enough to kill him
can anyone give me information about yondaime except the usual stuff
naruto's father, etc .....

[BrownRukus]

Originally Posted by Kage-Shinobi

Yondaime would be a good match for itachi unfortunately...........
mdr
It is pretty clear that no one is to defeat him until sasuke is strong enough to kill him
can anyone give me information about yondaime except the usual stuff
naruto's father, etc .....

Naruto's father is not the 4th. However, that is the usual rumor here that the 4th is Naruto's father and/or the 4th is alive. Don't belive it till u see it with ur own eyes.

[vampiro]

only for up to date manga readers (otherwise you'll read spoilers)

Spoiler:

It seems to me that orochimaru can beat Itachi. In chapter 238 akatsuki members say that they need to work together to kill oro. So to me that means that Itachi alone wont be enough to kill oro.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by vampiro

Spoiler:

It seems to me that orochimaru can beat Itachi. In chapter 238 akatsuki members say that they need to work together to kill oro. So to me that means that Itachi alone wont be enough to kill oro.

Spoiler:

Sadly, your wrong. When upside-down guy says: "We'll kill itachi someday" he merely implying that they will kill him someday, not that they need more men to kill him.
Akatsuki always speaks in terms of the collective, hence batguys quote.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

Spoiler:

Sadly, your wrong. When upside-down guy says: "We'll kill itachi someday" he merely implying that they will kill him someday, not that they need more men to kill him.
Akatsuki always speaks in terms of the collective, hence batguys quote.

Spoiler:

The bat memeber did say that ganging up on Oro was the wise thing to do, implying that he is so dangerous they need to attack as a collective but that could be the same thing. One thing is clear. Orochiamru with a sharingan = extreme danger

[Hunter]

Spoiler:

That's funny because it's not that way I understood the sentence, the bat dude says that someday Oro will get killed and end this sentence as that.
Then he says that more importantly they only have 3 years to do what they wan to do whatever it is (their "ambition" to gain everything inluding the Kyubi).
It doesn't seem like they're still talking of Oro at all but about the fact that as Jiraiya said they won't come after Naruto for this amount of time (for unknown reason).

Note that I do think it's wiser to attack Orochimaru all together if they don't want to lose several people of the level of Kisame for example.

[MiniSilverTiger]

Originally Posted by vampiro

only for up to date manga readers (otherwise you'll read spoilers)

Spoiler:

It seems to me that orochimaru can beat Itachi. In chapter 238 akatsuki members say that they need to work together to kill oro. So to me that means that Itachi alone wont be enough to kill oro.

they don't have to, it just would be easier and more successful...

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Note that I do think it's wiser to attack Orochimaru all together if they don't want to lose several people of the level of Kisame for example.

I agree. Though, Itachi could do it by himself.

[Mirtual]

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

So far, it seems that many folks here believe that Itachi is God incarnate. That in a one on one match, no one can beat him. Most of this is based on Oro saying that Itachi is stronger than he is, and his fight with Kakashi.

However.. I think he can be beaten by someone who knows how to deal with his Sharingan.

Personally, I think Jiyaira and Gai would be a good match for Itachi. I'm betting that Jiyaira knows how to deal with Sharingan users, and Gai has had enough battles with Kakashi (whether or not these were actually fights is unknown), that he'll know what needs to be done in order to fight a Sharingan user. Then, include him opening a few gates....

So my 2 choices for beating Itachi are:

Jiyaira - Too much knowledge, battle experience and pure power. I'm sure he'll be able to come up with something to put the smackdown on Itachi.

Gai - The fastest and strongest jounin by far, not including opening the gates. Once he does... it'll be something to see. If Itachi can't use his Sharingan on him, I don't think his body would be able to keep up with Gai's extreme high speed gates opened taijutsu.

I wtill think that all this who-can-beat-whom discussions are completely useless. However I would like to post some facts on Itachi himself, so that those who are interested can make themselfesan opinion.

1) .Orochimaru stated he could not defeat him.
Orochimaru was always portrayed as being arrogant and self confident, so he wouldn't have said that just out of the blue. I remeber his fight with Sandaime here as an exapmle. He was toying around with an oppnent on Kage level. Not to mention he took down the Kazekage without a scratch. So, what is my point? My point is Orochimaru is very strong and can't beat Itachi, so this clearly indicates at what level Itachi is.
Tough I have to admit here that this was in the past arc. No one can say for sure how strong Oro is right now.

2) .He took down the Uchiha Clan on his own around the age of 13.
Seeing how much the other members disliked him I somehow doubt they went easy on him. Although his mother, or father (may have been holding back), or the old guy shouldn't have been much of a challenge, there should have been some really powerful and experienced Jounin there.

3) .Itachi avoided the fight with Jiraiya.
A lot of people think he is afraid and/or weaker than Jiraiya because Itachi avoided the fight with him. This is pure speculation. In fact Itachi has this strange attitude of not killing anyone and avoiding trouble whenever it is possible. (he did not kill Sasuke, he did not kill Kurenai or Asuma, he did not kill Kakashi --> He could have done it). Altough I would agree on the fact that Itachi seems to have some respect for Jiraiya, I doubt he is weaker. In their case I would say their chances are not 50:50 but rather they are in a league where both of them could win.
Some people add here that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya (seeing Jiraiya loosing in the flash back, plus Orochimaru fighting the other two Sanin even without his arms,...). But even if this was true, there is no connection between this fact and the outcome of an Itachi vs. Jiraiya fight.

4) .The Sharingan.
The most superior Doujutsu we have seen so far (and NO, I will not count that crappy made up nonsense of the anime fillers). I think it is rather sure to say that no Genjutsu user will ever beat Itachi. This leaves Tai and Ninjitsu. Itachi should be able to read most Taijutsu, and Ninjitsu. I still remember Kakashi fighting Zabuza, and so on... So does this mean he can not get beat? No. Altough only someone with an intense knowledge of the Sharingan would stand a chance against him. wich means Kakashi or Sasuke. Why not Jiraiya? Because unless you know what he can do, you have no chance. Jiraiya did not know the Amaterasu. So using the most basic anti-Sharingan Strategy and avoiding eye contact, he would have gotten melt. Now he knows it. Since we have only seen two of the Uchiha master Jutsu and Itachis superior Genjutsu handling, it is tough to say if one of the characters we know so far could beat it. Fact is, that if you manage to have no eye contact at all and stay out of the 5 meter max range of Amaterasu you have a chance.

5) .Itachi is a genius.
Yes he is. But nothinig spectecular in my point of view. The only really impressive thing he ever did was taking out hte Uchiha clan at the age of 13 on his own, wich might not be true (but this is another story).
So, some facts. All mighty Itachi graded from the academy at the age of 7. All three Sanin graded at the age of 6, Kakashi at the age of 5. Itachi was an Chunin at the age of 10. Kakashi was Chunin at the age of 6. He activated the Sharingan at 8. We have no comparsion how good this is, since the only two other Uchiha members we see are Obito and Sasuke. All the Hyuga seemed to have had the Byakugan activated at 8 or early, but lets asume this is impressive. He stated that you would have two kill your closest friend to master Mange, and he stated Kakashi could never use the true strengh of the Sharingan since he has no Uchiha blood. Both is wrong. So he either knows little about his Sharingan or is simply a lier.

6) .Itachi never fough serious.
Up until now we have never seen Itachi go all out. Unless he does it is impossible to tell how strong or fast or clever he is when it counts. Of course this does not mean the things we have seen so far do not show us some previews of his skills.

So, enough for now.
To make it short. Itachi is one of the genius in the Naruto world. Not the most gifted one, but still impressive. He should be somewhere around Kage level, and the best chances to beat him are to have a blood line limit (Sharingan is a lot more useless here) and/or experience with the Sharingan itself. The fact that you need to be on his level of Skill goes without saying.

[Yellow Flash]

Yondaime is stronger than Itachi. Even Jiraiya was strong enough to handle Itachi and Kisame.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by Yellow Flash

Yondaime is stronger than Itachi.

Facts? You don't know, I don't know... stop taking things for granted.

Even Jiraiya was strong enough to handle Itachi and Kisame.

They never fought really... The only thing we saw was Jirayia summoning the Esophagus and Itachi knowing a way to escape. Wouldn't call that "handle" somebody.

[animefullmetal]

nobody so far can beat itachi because three jounins went up and fought him and at the end he won

[gibits]

I'd add Sasori to the list as well. Itachi could take on a little clan in a village, but Sasori could take on a whole freakin' country all by himself.

I'd like to see him try to use the MS on a puppet.

PS Itachi would make a fine addition to Sasori's collection of living puppets.

[Yellow Flash]

Originally Posted by gibits

I'd add Sasori to the list as well. Itachi could take on a little clan in a village, but Sasori could take on a whole freakin' country all by himself.

I'd like to see him try to use the MS on a puppet.

PS Itachi would make a fine addition to Sasori's collection of living puppets.

Sasori doesn't stand a chance against Itachi. It's not even a fight.
The Sharingan can see the puppet strings and predict all attacks.