The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 7]

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

It should also be pointed out that a good portion of the 10s for BLR were from people who were just glad to see a new episode of Haruhi.

Ironic, isn't it?

[mokuseimaru]

The poll should open.

As for the opinion expressed above about a true second season coming shortly after this one: in the spirit of those constantly repeating that "they never promised you/they don't owe you this or that" I will say, when did they ever promise such a thing.

I am almost beyond the point of trying to intelligently criticize this decision---and I consider it as more of a "decision" than an "arc". This is what would be what is called "conceptual art"---it's supposed to be about some kind of idea without any of the usual aesthetic appeal. Take for example, "One and Three Chairs" by Joseph Kosuth



Now, I am not a fan of this kind of art, mainly because it is just too easy. However, from another perspective, its ease of creation is supposed to be one of its merits, because it emphasizes the idea instead of traditional aesthetic appeal.

Very well. I may not like it but I can accept it.

Endless Eight, though, doesn't have this merit. The best comparison I can come up with would be, if the chair in the above work was made of solid gold, then painted over in a very clever way so it looked like an ordinary wooden chair. That would be Endless Eight.

I think if this has taught me anything, it is that I will never again complain about original filler in any series ever again. It makes you realize, hey, were the Bounts that bad? Was Curry of Life that bad? I mean, it was curry, but of life...I mean, what more do you want?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Otaku = Anime nerd (I use neither of these terms derogatorily, I hasten to add - I myself am an anime nerd to a certain extent)

Nerds never forget anything that's related to something that they're interested in. That's one of the key characteristics of nerds - their ability to remember the most mundane details of their favorite shows several years after they last aired.

So... otaku don't have a three-year old memory. The continuing immense popularity of Neon Genesis Evangelion proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If anime studios seriously think that otakus have three-year old memories (especially when it comes to a series as popular as Haruhi Suzumiya) then they have even bigger problems than I thought.

No, this isn't why the three-year theory exists. Anime fandom (and especially anime merchandise purchasing) is a revolving door. Every year, some new people enter the fandom and others exist having gotten bored of it (or having found other priorities in life). There will always be a remnant who will stick around for the long-term, but these are the exceptions and not the rule. The actual membership pattern of this forum can attest to this phenomenon. I've heard multiple interviews with people in the Industry who've explained that anime merchandising in Japan is done with this model in mind -- they hit them hard and fast before they lose interest, since most customers won't keep buying DVDs for long. Even the Evangelion stuff -- they keep on remaking it and adding more spin-offs because of the revolving door of fandom. While some people stick around forever and buy everything, many people enter at a random point, buy a few things, and then leave/stop buying. I remember them saying that the average "life expectancy" of a "hardcore" anime fan is something like 12-18 months. Most people just disappear.

So, the remnant aside, that's what the three-year memory refers to: the regular turnaround of fandom. Of course they're also banking on a remnant that didn't forget and are using that remnant to bring some of the buzz back about their show, which they expect will get people to check out the first season to see what they missed.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

The poll should open.

No, there's no point.

Until there's new episodes I fail to see the point of rating Endless Eight again.


My current theory is that they're trying to kill off the popularity of the Haruhi franchise, since KyoAni probably wants to forget about it and go on to new projects, and that's fine.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

My current theory is that they're trying to kill off the popularity of the Haruhi franchise, since KyoAni probably wants to forget about it and go on to new projects, and that's fine.

They're doing a pretty poor job of killing it, then, because fan awareness and buzz is higher than ever (even if "opinion" is pretty low). Just wait until the episode that ends this arc airs, or the episode subsequent. People are so desperate now for something new that whatever we get next will seem amazing by comparison.

Edit: Also, I opened the poll now. Why not...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

They're doing a pretty poor job of killing it, then, because fan awareness and buzz is higher than ever (even if "opinion" is pretty low). Just wait until the episode that ends this arc airs, or the episode subsequent. People are so desperate now for something new that whatever we get next will seem amazing by comparison.

Sighs still sucks regardless of E8. >_>

Although I'm sure I'll be enjoying it a hell of a lot more than I would otherwise.

[Midonin]

If they were trying to kill it, I don't think they'd be continually promoting all the things from this season that aren't Endless Eight. Character songs, the singles, a remix CD, and no doubt several new figures and other goodies. Trying to "kill" something involves a much more devious set of plans that are...well, pretty much the opposite of what Haruhi's getting.

[Mentar]

I wonder how many people are like me. People who liked the original Haruhi without going all gaga over it, and who started watching S2 with a mild feeling of disappointment in the early 2 eps (particularly the K-Oned art style), and who simply don't watch any iterations (and don't plan to) except for the one ep which breaks the loop.

My guess is that KyoAni/Kadokawa think that we don't matter at all, since we don't buy DVDs... and they may be right. But is hungering the fanbase down to the bone, and POing lots of their paying fans in the process...

Strange. But I'm not really angry. I'm giggling at the remaining "true believers" and don't care anymore. And hope that the DVD sales tank to record lows.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

They're doing a pretty poor job of killing it, then, because fan awareness and buzz is higher than ever (even if "opinion" is pretty low). Just wait until the episode that ends this arc airs, or the episode subsequent. People are so desperate now for something new that whatever we get next will seem amazing by comparison.

It has been said that T.V. ratings are not important for a show like Haruhi. "Buzz" may be enough to get people to tune in, but it won't be enough for most to buy DVDs. Based on this model, I would say that, if they are trying to kill Haruhi, they certainly are doing the best they can.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Strange. But I'm not really angry. I'm giggling at the remaining "true believers" and don't care anymore. And hope that the DVD sales tank to record lows.

I quite agree. I lot of supporters repeat time and again how much they enjoy watching the fandom "rage". But I'm starting enjoy watching the them say again and again that they are "loving every episode", and even more so when they try to defend it as innovative.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Solachinx

I think most fans would take Sigh over E8 anyday, now.

I'm saying that if there's a new 14 episode DVD release and 8 of those episodes are E8, I don't think that many people will buy the DVD's.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

But it's kinda fun trying to guess when it's going to end.............. Or so I keep telling myself.

Time to start believing in the 8 episode theory!

The Cycles will not end. They will continue for all time. Only with total annihilation of all Fandom will the cycles finally come to an end. Only then will you Crazy Eddies win.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

They're doing a pretty poor job of killing it, then, because fan awareness and buzz is higher than ever (even if "opinion" is pretty low). Just wait until the episode that ends this arc airs, or the episode subsequent. People are so desperate now for something new that whatever we get next will seem amazing by comparison.

This kind of move definitely creates buzz about the series. If the shows makers made most of their money of TV ratings this would actually be a pretty deviously good idea. But they make money off DVD sales. I'm not sure this kind of hype will translate into DVD sales.

Best case scenario is most likely gonna be that they don't lose any extra income. But they still lose money because they have the additional expense of 5-6 E8 episodes which don't really pull their own weight.

[panzerfan]

well, mokuseimaru, you cannot deny that here we are talking about this act of masochism with eyes open, which means you can't say that you are not soiled by it!

People can say that it is rather unbecoming to get enjoyment out of something and having a 'us' vs 'them' mentality, when it's ultimately only entertainment XD

I seriously have a bad case of déjà vu, as Myssa Rei does. It's like we're party like it's 2015, or 1996.

@Mentar, or to paraphrase Jean Chrétien:

"No, publicity is publicity. Some publicity is publicity and when you have good publicity, is when you've got publicity"

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

They're doing a pretty poor job of killing it, then, because fan awareness and buzz is higher than ever (even if "opinion" is pretty low).

In other words, they're testing the "there's no such thing as bad publicity, publicity is everything that counts" mantra.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

It has been said that T.V. ratings are not important for a show like Haruhi. "Buzz" may be enough to get people to tune in, but it won't be enough for most to buy DVDs. Based on this model, I would say that, if they are trying to kill Haruhi, they certainly are doing the best they can.

How is this an effective kill strategy at all? To kill it, all they have to do is not air anything. Don't make a sequel, don't re-air it, and don't say anything more about it. Just let it die. Then it would live on forever in infamy as a great one-season show that, like so many others, was never continued. (Incidentally, I bet some people will choose to look at it this way anyway. )

This airing may not be enough to get people to buy DVDs of these episodes. But is it generating enough attention to get people to tune in for a second season? Time will tell...

Originally Posted by Mentar

In other words, they're testing the "there's no such thing as bad publicity, publicity is everything that counts" mantra.

I think so. The question, then, is what are they selling? If current theories are to be believed, then perhaps they were never trying to sell DVDs of Endless Eight at all.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

@Mentar, or to paraphrase Jean Chrétien:

"No, publicity is publicity. Some publicity is publicity and when you have good publicity, is when you've got publicity"

You're Canadian?

Originally Posted by Mentar

In other words, they're testing the "there's no such thing as bad publicity, publicity is everything that counts" mantra.

I really do think this is a bad way of looking at things though. It's only true to a point.

Past that point you've lost everything.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

No, this isn't why the three-year theory exists. Anime fandom (and especially anime merchandise purchasing) is a revolving door. Every year, some new people enter the fandom and others exist having gotten bored of it (or having found other priorities in life). There will always be a remnant who will stick around for the long-term, but these are the exceptions and not the rule. The actual membership pattern of this forum can attest to this phenomenon. I've heard multiple interviews with people in the Industry who've explained that anime merchandising in Japan is done with this model in mind -- they hit them hard and fast before they lose interest, since most customers won't keep buying DVDs for long.

Bold emphasis mine.


Then a three-year gap between Season 1 Haruhi and... some new episodes, is terrible... wouldn't you agree?

Even the Evangelion stuff -- they keep on remaking it and adding more spin-offs because of the revolving door of fandom. While some people stick around forever and buy everything, many people enter at a random point, buy a few things, and then leave/stop buying. I remember them saying that the average "life expectancy" of a "hardcore" anime fan is something like 12-18 months. Most people just disappear.

So, the remnant aside, that's what the three-year memory refers to: the regular turnaround of fandom. Of course they're also banking on a remnant that didn't forget and are using that remnant to bring some of the buzz back about their show, which they expect will get people to check out the first season to see what they missed.

Bold emphasis mine


Then how is pi$$ing off your remnant - your hardcore fans - a lot of your novel readers who want Disappearance (in Haruhi's case) - with something like Endless Eight a good idea? The part of the fanbase you're counting on to create positive buzz for the show, and you are deliberately pi$$ing them off?

There are exceptions to the rule of "all publicity is good publicity".

One obvious exception, for example, is how a lot of bad word of mouth from initial movie goers during a huge opening week for a movie can cause following weeks to plummet in sales for that movie. People like seeing train wrecks, but in the modern internet age, genuinely good worthwhile content by its own merits = DVD sales, and train wrecks = a lot of free internet downloads out of people curious to see the train wreck but little actual sales.

Here's an analogy for you...

The popularity of the Haruhi Suzumiya anime is like a speeding locomotive gathering steam.

KyoAni is Superman flying down to stop the locomotive.

Endless Eight is the resulting train wreck - and like a train wreck, it brings everything to a halt.

People may flock to see the train wreck for free, but they're not going to pay to ride on it...

[Conan-san]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Chair'n'art stuff

Disapear,
This arc is an eyesore;
This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc.
This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc.
This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc. This arc.
THIS ARC!

Originally Posted by Triple_R

KyoAni is Superman flying down to stop the locomotive

So what you're saying is This is the Countdown of japanese animation? I can buy that.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This airing may not be enough to get people to buy DVDs of these episodes. But is it generating enough attention to get people to tune in for a second season? Time will tell...

Which makes no sense. The airing of a 2nd season would have been enough hype. And allot cheaper than making a faux season that you never plan to sell.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think so. The question, then, is what are they selling? If current theories are to be believed, then perhaps they were never trying to sell DVDs of Endless Eight at all.

Which as I have mentioned before is like dumping money down the drain.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Roseweave

The thing is at this stage it's just getting more and more unimaginably pointless and wasteful. Though some people might be going LOL TROLL HILARIOUS, people are just loosing interest and importantly like so many other shitty anime, the time and money put into this could be put into something worthwhile.

I'm really starting to get angry not just because of fanboy rage, but because it's so ridiculously wasteful in a time we should really not be.

It strikes me as a way to avoid showing disappointment with what some "LOL EPIC TROLL" posters probably think deep down has been a waste of their time. It saves face too.

Anyway, if 2ch actually is getting genuinely upset with this arc then DVD sales will drop somewhat, but what upsets 2ch and what upsets us here follow very different criteria. Otaku need to feel personally slighted as a group in some way before the DVD sales will ever drop substantially, and it's hard to tell yet if Haruhi has fallen out of "buy" status with them. In other words don't be surprised and RAEG if the DVD's consistently top the Oricon charts as they are released, because by all measurements and gauges that could be said to exist for Otaku (that I am aware of) it's still in 15,000+ category of DVD marketability at least.

P.S: Note that Super Driver is selling at the regular level for a high profile moe show single. Let that be a sign.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then a three-year gap between Season 1 Haruhi and... some new episodes, is terrible... wouldn't you agree?

As opposed to a three-year gap and a re-airing with no new episodes? It's not exactly either better or worse from that perspective.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then how is pi$$ing off your remnant - your hardcore fans - a lot of your novel readers who want Disappearance (in Haruhi's case) - with something like Endless Eight is a good idea? The part of the fanbase you're counting on to create positive buzz for the show, and you are deliberately pi$$ing them off?

Oh, please. They're pissed off now, sure. But what will happen when they do animate the part they're waiting for? Are you telling me that, given this show's otherwise long-standing tradition of being rather faithful to the novels, they're going to say "nope, not interested" even though they've been looking forward to it for so long?

What people are so pissed off about is that they're being made to wait even longer, and they feel like they've been mislead to think that they'd get it sooner rather than later. But once you get over that anger, it's just a delay. They haven't "destroyed the novels" or "ruined our chances of seeing the rest of the novels animated". And when that happens, I don't think all the novel fans who have waited this long are going to seriously be like "I don't care anymore about Haruhi". They've waited three years already, what's a little bit longer?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One obvious exception, for example, is how a lot of bad word of mouth from initial movie goers during a huge opening week for a movie can cause following weeks to plummet in sales for that movie. People like seeing train wrecks, but in the modern internet age, genuinely good worthwhile content by its own merits = DVD sales, and train wrecks = a lot of free internet downloads out of people curious to see the train wreck but little actual sales.

Why do DVD sales of Endless Eight matter to you? They only matter if Kadokawa thought they were going to use those sales as a barometer of whether it's worth continuing on with the project. Do you really honestly believe they have those expectations...?

I mean, disappointment is understandable, but let's be reasonable here.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Which makes no sense. The airing of a 2nd season would have been enough hype. And allot cheaper than making a faux season that you never plan to sell.

It doesn't have to make sense to us, though. If they want to burn money on something many around here feel is a waste of time, why not?

[Jenni]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I'm saying that if there's a new 14 episode DVD release and 8 of those episodes are E8, I don't think that many people will buy the DVD's.


The Cycles will not end. They will continue for all time. Only with total annihilation of all Fandom will the cycles finally come to an end. Only then will you Crazy Eddies win.

What's with all these Mote In God's Eye references?