[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 433 Discussion

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

So the gist of it is...you're fretting because you miss Rukia, and Renji, you want to see Chad stop being the weakest character in the manga, and you want Renji to have his moment of glory that is WAY overdue. I agree with that last one. I want to see Renji be a bad ass too

And ...you want Kubo to write your story and not his? Since you're saying how it should go. Amirite?

Hey how about you go a post without being an rude and condescending when you're points aren't even intelligent? I want Kubo to write a GOOD story. His story has potential but then he drags things on, rushes the important stuff and almost never touches on them again, decays characters etc..., he can have his plot but all I'm saying is he can write it in a way that doesn't cause the fanbase to face palm.

Question: How come you don't care where Ganju is? Don't you care if he decays? Or is it just the characters you like, because that's what it sounds like

Ok one thing where did I ever mention I like Renji, Rukia, Chad etc...? Nowhere, they were examples so stop trying to act smart by nitpicking at me for not mentioning every character. Ganju isn't that memorable so I never picked him and he never had much use in the story to begin with.

Also if it's that bad, why are we having this conversation. You won't ever catch me in the OP thread complaining about the boring story, or those weird looking characters. Are you a masochist? Well I am sadist...let's get together sometime. I will hurt you worse than Kubo did.

I'm curious about how this thing will end, just because I read it I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

I do think Ishida got played. Chad lasted longer than he did. The outrage!! *shakes fist at Kubo* I agree, I said that all characters exist to develop the main character. Where did you see me say I liked one dimensional stories

Since you're nitpicking, where did you see me say that you liked one dimensional stories? If you're going to nitpick make sure you're not doing the exact same thing I apparently did, which I didn't actually do. As stormwhite said having all characters exist solely for the development of the main character with no real substance of their own (I'm paraphrasing here just in case you feel like nitpicking again) is very one dimensional. Then you said that you thought thats how you write a story and I said no, no one likes a one dimensional story.

May I ask you a question? Are you drunk or high? Or did you quote me by accident and just post without checking it? Because I didn't say that either. Where are you getting this from? I don't read OP. It's really boring....comparisons like that is lost on little ol me
How can you call my argument simple when you don't seem to know what is was?

How bout you revisit it then try again?

You said:

I believe that every character exists for the development of Ichigo's character. You don't have to see him for him to get development besides weren't you complaining that the minor characters didn't have enough screen time

This implies that Ichigo and the minor characters cannot be developed at the same time or get more screen time at the same time, so now get off your high horse, stop talking as if your points are smart, stop trying to subtly insult my intelligence and please stop doing whatever it is that causes you to forget what you wrote. Gonna argue with me, at least have a point and don't simply result to nitpicking wrongly I might add and trying to subtly insult my intelligence

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Ehm Aizen's sole base in beating everyone was Kyouka Suigetsu what are you talking about he didn't use it? lol he used it on everyone?

He did use it on everyone. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was conjuring up illusions for the vast majority of the fight. As far as we know, the ONLY confirmed and official illusion used during Aizen's entire fight against the Captains was the one involving Momo. That's it. To claim it was used to do anything else is pure speculation at best.

Originally Posted by Farscape

I am kinda lost how did you think he beat them? :s He hasn't beaten/injured/killed anyone without it..

Remember all those captains and VC's he took down before being confronted by Soifon and pulling off the Momo troll trick? Hypnosis wasn't used there. In fact, he did all that while Gin was confirming Aizen's strength without his ability. That heavily implies he legitimately took down Love, Rose, Lisa, & Komamura together without it.

Remember that final assault that took place immediately after Aizen released Kyouka Suigetsu (to reveal the one and only illusion we can prove he actually used)? Aizen specifically stated that they were all full of openings during their final assault. He was apparently strong enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to be able to see the openings and take advantage of them. As far as we can prove, Kyouka Suigetsu had absolutely nothing to do with that. Besides, like I stated above, Gin testifies for Aizen's strength *without* hypnosis. He was basically Kubo's proxy for trying to tell you that yes--Aizen is genuinely strong.

Originally Posted by Farscape

One of the reason for Kubo's plothole in the battle between Ishin could've been that Isshin was never around to witness Aizen's release or perhaps the retard just completly forgot and thought of a battle where Aizen gets spanked and is forced to use the hyogku because seriously if he can rape anyone with just his Shikai why use Hyogku?

So perhaps Kubo forgot about Aizen's release just to give the Hougyoku a purpose? Like I stated, it's bad writing pure and simple.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Guys, as much as I've enjoyed reading this conversation, this thread is for Ch. 433 only...

[Alchemist007]

Yeah...it's interesting all right. But 433 only offered so much

Ichigo's reactions are...jeez

Spoiler for size:

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by sayde

He did use it on everyone. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was conjuring up illusions for the vast majority of the fight. As far as we know, the ONLY confirmed and official illusion used during Aizen's entire fight against the Captains was the one involving Momo. That's it. To claim it was used to do anything else is pure speculation at best.



Remember all those captains and VC's he took down before being confronted by Soifon and pulling off the Momo troll trick? Hypnosis wasn't used there. In fact, he did all that while Gin was confirming Aizen's strength without his ability. That heavily implies he legitimately took down Love, Rose, Lisa, & Komamura together without it.

Remember that final assault that took place immediately after Aizen released Kyouka Suigetsu (to reveal the one and only illusion we can prove he actually used)? Aizen specifically stated that they were all full of openings during their final assault. He was apparently strong enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to be able to see the openings and take advantage of them. As far as we can prove, Kyouka Suigetsu had absolutely nothing to do with that. Besides, like I stated above, Gin testifies for Aizen's strength *without* hypnosis. He was basically Kubo's proxy for trying to tell you that yes--Aizen is genuinely strong.

Gin did state that but we all know how bad the writer really is. Because if he was that strong why did Isshin didn't have that much trouble. But this is beside the point.

About his shikai, they were all trapped offcourse some of them are just weak but those that teamed up and not just randomly attacked Aizen eg love/rose/lisa/komomaru and thought of a plan eg Hitsugaya, Shinsui, Hirako they were trapped in the illusion, this could simple be implied by Ichigo's reaction. They were all probably confused in the target without even knowing it only Ichigo knew.

And Aizen is not that fast that he could hit all of them wide open, he's obviously not the only one who masterd hoho. And Aizen never unreleased his sword thats the whole point. The thing is we never knew the lengths of his ability. But he clearly implied to Hirako that Kyoga was already activated. He can control peoples sense at any given time.. if its already activated. if he doesn't want to doesn't mean he has to unrelease his sword.

It's just the assumption that they made that he didn't release yet, because they don't know when it hits them when you have already witnessed it once. A good example is what happend in the fight against Yama, Aizen had him in his trap already.. only Yama knew it already and was prepared to get stabbed and turned the tables around.

When you are trapped in an illusion you have no idea where ur enemy is at the moment, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he can cut them down instantly because they don't know his were abouts.

Why bother with Love, Rose and Komomaru seriously they are weak.. was anyone impressed with that? seriously. But you are right he didn't use it there but obviously he didn't need to.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Gin did state that but we all know how bad the writer really is. Because if he was that strong why did Isshin didn't have that much trouble.

Exactly. It seems you're finally beginning to understand my point.

Originally Posted by Farscape

But this is beside the point.

On the contrary. That's a very big part of the point.

Originally Posted by Farscape

About his shikai, they were all trapped offcourse some of them are just weak but those that teamed up and not just randomly attacked Aizen eg love/rose/lisa/komomaru and thought of a plan eg Hitsugaya, Shinsui, Hirako they were trapped in the illusion, this could simple be implied by Ichigo's reaction. They were all probably confused in the target without even knowing it only Ichigo knew.

"Probably"? Seriously, do you have anything aside from speculation you can use to officially prove Aizen used illusions to help him deliver finishing blows to Love, Rose, Lisa, Komomaru, Shunsui, Soifon, Hitsugaya, or Shinji?

Originally Posted by Farscape

And Aizen is not that fast that he could hit all of them wide open, he's obviously not the only one who masterd hoho.

1.) Aizen IS that fast. Kubo made it a point to try and convey that when Ichigo first arrived in FKT. Remember when Aizen approached and touched Ichigo's chest while he was standing right in front of Ichigo? Aizen was so fast, that not even Bankai Vizard Ichigo's eyes could keep up with him. Besides, Gin/Kubo specifically stated that " All of Aizen's abilities are far removed from any other".

2.) Complete Hypnosis is a cheap ability, but it still doesn't actually strike opponents for Aizen. In the end, he still has to be the one to attack. So if "he could hit all of them wide open" in the way that he did, then he had to have the skill and the speed to do it. Because his illusions can't do it for him.

*edit*

Originally Posted by Farscape

Why bother with Love, Rose and Komomaru seriously they are weak.. was anyone impressed with that? seriously. But you are right he didn't use it there but obviously he didn't need to.

Don't try to down play it too much. They were still captain level.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by sayde

"Probably"? Seriously, do you have anything aside from speculation you can use to officially prove Aizen used illusions to help him deliver finishing blows to Love, Rose, Lisa, Komomaru, Shunsui, Soifon, Hitsugaya, or Shinji?



1.) Aizen IS that fast. Kubo made it a point to try and convey that when Ichigo first arrived in FKT. Remember when Aizen approached and touched Ichigo's chest while he was standing right in front of Ichigo? Aizen was so fast, that not even Bankai Vizard Ichigo's eyes could keep up with him. Besides, Gin/Kubo specifically stated that " All of Aizen's abilities are far removed from any other".

2.) Complete Hypnosis is a cheap ability, but it still doesn't actually strike opponents for Aizen. In the end, he still has to be the one to attack. So if "he could hit all of them wide open" in the way that he did, then he had to have the skill and the speed to do it. Because his illusions can't do it for him.

*edit*


Don't try to down play it. Out of those 4 opponents, 3 of them were captain level.

Why do you even mention Love, Rose, Lisa and Komomaru they were defeated because they are weak and attacked head on. That pure force. I agreed to that. I could've also mentioned that they were on 5% life having fought and lost fairly easy in earlier battles. WOW the resistance.


The others were stroke in an instant similar to how Aizen attacked Yamamoto how hard is this to understand it's not pure speculation. Or do you believe that Aizen was fast enough for Yamamoto to? when he clearley states that Yamamoto is already to late implying that he is already in an illusion.

And my point was if someone is not aware of the situation you can easily strike them without them noticing doh? Some of the VC got sliced down due to kyoga because they thought Hinomari stood up but it was Aizen

And officiously? seriously what do you think this is a power rank? It's what you observe. Similar to how you made Aizen super fast because Ichigo wasn't paying attention. You can observe alot from that situation one of them being that he was unaware/scared. So why is Aizen in your situation "officiously" fast. And why do you take everything down to what is stated only in situations were it suits you. When in fact you know that the writer doesn't make much sense. Eg Gin's troll speaks and there you have Isshins spanking. Doesn't leave much does it.

There have been similar moments where Ichigo was suppose to be really fast but couldn't keep up those are called plotholes or inconsistencies buddy.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

This implies that Ichigo and the minor characters cannot be developed at the same time or get more screen time at the same time, so now get off your high horse, stop talking as if your points are smart, stop trying to subtly insult my intelligence and please stop doing whatever it is that causes you to forget what you wrote. Gonna argue with me, at least have a point and don't simply result to nitpicking wrongly I might add and trying to subtly insult my intelligence

No that's NOT an implication that is your assumption.Please don't argue pov's that I don't have.(that's annoying) If you know a character is pulling the strings, if you see a character mention him. If they use something he created...that is development. You don't have to see him for him to get development. Ichigo was mia for a year. Yet HM developed hollows. FKT developed Arrancar and Hollows all which developed Ichigo and you never saw him. Capiche? Now when you argue with the things I actually said and not what you "assumed" we will pick that up

I am sorry if you felt insulted but dude because I like to joke around..you were also insulting but I am not going to hold it against you.

Now if you're going to get your panties in a bunch. I can just ignore you and you can do the same.

Edit: Isshin is the father of Ichigo. You should expect him to do better than the others, he's the father of the hero. Also he seemed to have the same ability to conceal his reiatsu in similar manner as Ichigo after he came out of the Dagai

Also a lot of people commented on Aizen's poor performance during that match but fail to realized Aizen was testing his new powers. He said he had no need to dodge and purposely took hits. Isshin did well but got owned along with everyone else. So I don't know why so many people "rage"
It's not who's winning in the beginning, that determines the fight, it is the one who standing in the end that counts

Aizen is the man!!!

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Farscape

The others were stroke in an instant similar to how Aizen attacked Yamamoto how hard is this to understand it's not pure speculation.

Except it is speculation. You can't prove what Aizen did to Yamamoto was the same thing he did Shunsui and the others. We can't even prove Aizen used illusions on Yamamoto in the first place.

Originally Posted by Farscape

Or do you believe that Aizen was fast enough for Yamamoto to?

Who knows? He could've been. It's not like speed alone defines strength. Aizen could very well be overall weaker than the old man but still be faster. Or the old man could've intentionally used an attack to lure Aizen into avoiding it and stabbing him. It's not like we could prove it one way or the other though. All we know for sure is that Yamamoto planned to take a hit.

Originally Posted by Farscape

he clearley states that Yamamoto is already to late implying that he is already in an illusion.

Aizen stating the old man is already too late is not an implication or proof of the use of illusions. How many times has Aizen made similar declarations about already accomplishing something he's yet to do? So it could just be more of Aizen being Aizen.

Originally Posted by Farscape

And my point was if someone is not aware of the situation you can easily strike them without them noticing doh? Some of the VC got sliced down due to kyoga because they thought Hinomari stood up but it was Aizen

And my point is that you keep assuming illusions were used during moments when you can't really prove they were. (duh)

Originally Posted by Farscape

And officiously? seriously what do you think this is a power rank? It's what you observe. Similar to how you made Aizen super fast because Ichigo wasn't paying attention.

Not paying attention? Ichigo couldn't have been more focused on him at the time he did that. So I'm not sure where you're drawing your observations from.

Originally Posted by Farscape

So why is Aizen in your situation "officiously" fast.

Because of the massive amounts of evidence we have to confirm it.

Originally Posted by Farscape

And why do you take everything down to what is stated only in situations were it suits you.

That's kind of what you do in a debate. Finding stated evidence to prove your point is hardly a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Farscape

you know that the writer doesn't make much sense. Eg Gin's troll speaks and there you have Isshins spanking. Doesn't leave much does it.

There have been similar moments where Ichigo was suppose to be really fast but couldn't keep up those are called plotholes or inconsistencies buddy.

Good points. Here's what I don't get. How can you acknowledge Kubo to be a bad writer, and see that his work has plot holes and inconsistencies, but yet find it hard accept Aizen to be strong? Better yet, how can you have trouble acknowledging the outcome of Isshin's fight with Aizen to be another inconsistency?

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by sayde

Except it is speculation. You can't prove what Aizen did to Yamamoto was the same thing he did Shunsui and the others. We can't even prove Aizen used illusions on Yamamoto in the first place.

Who knows? He could've been. It's not like speed alone defines strength. Aizen could very well be overall weaker than the old man but still be faster. Or the old man could've intentionally used an attack to lure Aizen into avoiding it and stabbing him. It's not like we could prove it one way or the other though. All we know for sure is that Yamamoto planned to take a hit.

Aizen stating the old man is already too late is not an implication or proof of the use of illusions. How many times has Aizen made similar declarations about already accomplishing something he's yet to do? So it could just be more of Aizen being Aizen.

Why don't you go and read the dialogue between Aizen and the old man chapter 393 page starting page 8 and then come back to me with your "facts".

Originally Posted by sayde

And my point is that you keep assuming illusions were used during moments when you can't really prove they were. (duh)

Why don't you go ahead and read chapter 392 page 12 and then come back to me.

Originally Posted by sayde

Because of the massive amounts of evidence we have to confirm it.

Where? There has been one point you made against Ichigo? where else?

Originally Posted by sayde

Not paying attention? Ichigo couldn't have been more focused on him at the time he did that. So I'm not sure where you're drawing your observations from.

Ichigo lacks experience he can be startled by any person remotley fast eg Ulquirroa. And he was not very observent in that match because he was scared, he needs time to adjust and he didn't know how to approach or prepare for his opponent. So focused i think not, you are focused when ur mind is clear, his was definitley in chaos.

Originally Posted by sayde

That's kind of what you do in a debate. Finding stated evidence to prove your point is hardly a bad thing.

No, i don't believe you understand what i meant. You only approve of inconsitencies when it favors you but when i make a case out of it it's pure speculation etc.

Originally Posted by sayde

Good points. Here's what I don't get. How can you acknowledge Kubo to be a bad writer, and see that his work has plot holes and inconsistencies, but yet find it hard accept Aizen to be strong? Better yet, how can you have trouble acknowledging the outcome of Isshin's fight with Aizen to be another inconsistency?

Simple because we don't know if Issin was ever exposed to Kyoga making him another person other then Ichigo being able to fight him on par without holding back.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Why don't you go and read the dialogue between Aizen and the old man chapter 393 page starting page 8 and then come back to me with your "facts".




Why don't you go ahead and read chapter 392 page 12 and then come back to me.


Simple because we don't know if Issin was ever exposed to Kyoga making him another person other then Ichigo being able to fight him on par without holding back.

Soooooooo are you telling me you missed Isshin getting owned. He didn't fight on par with Aizen. Aizen didn't bother to dodge after awhile. Ichigo is the only one who seriously managed to wound him. Landing a hit doesn't mean much. It's a fight. That happens. Aizen won. Nor did really want Isshin or the others to die. Partially because he's a megalomaniac wanted them to witness his greatness and because.. Who else would train Ichigo and teach him final getsuga. It was actually Aizen who held back, not Isshin

Isshin already said that Aizen was light years ahead of everyone there


If Aizen used KS so what? How come Aizen is the only one fanboys get mad at when he uses his Zanpakuto like any other Shinigami? Were you upset when Yama let loose his flame. Believe it or not Intelligence is also a strength. A win is win and Aizen had been winning for the past 100 years

Aizen owned everyone but Ichigo (as it should be) , that is something that cannot be denied

[Stormwhite]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Um that's what makes them the main character. Because the story revolves around them If it didn't he'd be the supporting character

Mmm, this is why there's more than *one* major character in good anime/manga. Mahou Sensei Negima, One Piece (I'm not a fan, but I still rate it as a good example), HSD Kenichi...the list goes on.

Hell, although I hate it, even Naruto develops characters better than Bleach does. Recurring, supposedly major characters should be able to stand up on their own, not be merely a plot tool for the main character to supposedly "develop".

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I thought it was how you write a story... (Are you telling me I was wrong all these years!?)

If you're using Kubo's writing as a reference, yes

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I thought he was like that from the start...

that's what makes him a hero. If he said "I WANT TO KILL ALL MY FRIENDS" it would make him the villain (A psychotic one as well)

Speaking of bat shit insane, where is your avatar from? I like characters who are crazy, if they kill a lot of people it's even better.

Yeah, but he also had a personality besides that, or at least a glimmer of one. He kinda doesn't now.

And as other people have said, it's from Angel Beats, but my avatar really doesn't give an accurate representation of it, I just like scaring small children

@Power debate: Aizen himself admitted Yamamoto was stronger than him, but Yamamoto's an idiot, so it all works out.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Soooooooo are you telling me you missed Isshin getting owned. He didn't fight on par with Aizen. Aizen didn't bother to dodge after awhile. Ichigo is the only one who seriously managed to wound him. Landing a hit doesn't mean much. It's a fight. That happens. Aizen won. Nor did really want Isshin or the others to die. Partially because he's a megalomaniac wanted them to witness his greatness and because.. Who else would train Ichigo and teach him final getsuga. It was actually Aizen who held back, not Isshin

Isshin already said that Aizen was light years ahead of everyone there


If Aizen used KS so what? How come Aizen is the only one fanboys get mad at when he uses his Zanpakuto like any other Shinigami? Were you upset when Yama let loose his flame. Believe it or not Intelligence is also a strength. A win is win and Aizen had been winning for the past 100 years

Aizen owned everyone but Ichigo (as it should be) , that is something that cannot be denied

Aizen didn't pwn Isshin what are you talking about? And he didn't bother after awhile because he was at his limit and he let the Hyogku take control. Nobody said that Isshin had any chance when he merged with the Hyogku.

And I am not denying Aizen's power i am mearly pointing out that he wasn't godlike. Getting Spanked by Isshin like it was nothing. Pls reread the chapter. And i am not getting mad at Aizen. Actually i find it very sad because even without his Shikai, he'd probably own alot of people. But because of his Shikai, he is overrated. Because he has no normal battles like for example Byakuya those are equal grounds thats my point. His shikai takes away a fair fight and with this i am not saying that other people don't have crazy abilities and advantages but they don't control peoples mind. Because of Aizen's shikai his intelligence gets underrated imo. At least in Naruto with Mangekyou you have a chance, to not get trapped and possible get out of it.. with kyoga you have zero chance to avoid it at least from the point of the info we have now and the only way to get out of it is to get close to him, yea good luck with that if you are his enemy :s

And aizen didn't own Urahara either because his arts won in the end which was planted with intellect. Now what?

And Isshin didn't state that, that was Gin.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

No that's NOT an implication that is your assumption.Please don't argue pov's that I don't have.(that's annoying) If you know a character is pulling the strings, if you see a character mention him. If they use something he created...that is development. You don't have to see him for him to get development. Ichigo was mia for a year. Yet HM developed hollows. FKT developed Arrancar and Hollows all which developed Ichigo and you never saw him. Capiche? Now when you argue with the things I actually said and not what you "assumed" we will pick that up!

It was an implication, certain words imply one thing therefore people assume it to be that thing, I know I use it as a way cheating people all the time

Also tad bit hypocritical when you made assumptions of what I was saying too don't you think? My point was that constantly reoccurring minor characters shouldn't be without substance otherwise it makes the story and characters seem flat. All characters can be developed around the same time without too much effort.

Furthermore after 3 long posts I am officially bored with arguing, attention span be damned.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Why don't you go and read the dialogue between Aizen and the old man chapter 393 page starting page 8 and then come back to me with your "facts".

You want to know the "facts"? Aizen specficially states "I am not thinking of cutting you down. I already have". Yamamoto then attacks. Now in both the anime, and manga we can see Aizen turning around to stab the old man AFTER Yamamoto's attack. So in the end, Aizen's statements about already stabbing Yamamoto was just talk. He didn't *literally* mean it as you like to imply. Aizen avoided the slash, turned around, and then stabbed him. It wasn't like Yamamoto missed his attack and saw a sword through his body. If that happened, then you would indeed be correct and we wouldn't be debating this issue right now. He and Aizen both had time to turn their entire bodies around after Yamamoto's attack and before the stab connected. Once again, there's no way to prove illusions were used to avoid the old mans slash. So try again.

Originally Posted by Farscape

Why don't you go ahead and read chapter 392 page 12 and then come back to me.

Why do you insist on bringing that up? Ichigo's statements confirm only ONE illusion was used. It's the same illusion I've already constantly acknowledged. That fact barely holds any relevance. All it proves is that Aizen dispelled that one illusion to allow his opponents to see that the Captains got trolled. It doesn't prove he used illusions again to finish them off.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by sayde

You want to know the "facts"? Aizen specficially states "I am not thinking of cutting you down. I already have". Yamamoto then attacks. Now in both the anime, and manga we can see Aizen turning around to stab the old man AFTER Yamamoto's attack. So in the end, Aizen's statements about already stabbing Yamamoto was just talk. He didn't *literally* mean it as you like to imply. Aizen avoided the slash, turned around, and then stabbed him. It wasn't like Yamamoto missed his attack and saw a sword through his body. If that happened, then you would indeed be correct and we wouldn't be debating this issue right now. He and Aizen both had time to turn their entire bodies around after Yamamoto's attack and before the stab connected. Once again, there's no way to prove illusions were used to avoid the old mans slash. So try again.

I can't really see an obvious attack from the old man in the manga but if you say in the anime thats what happens oke

Originally Posted by sayde

Why do you insist on bringing that up? Ichigo's statements confirm only ONE illusion was used. It's the same illusion I've already constantly acknowledged. That fact barely holds any relevance. All it proves is that Aizen dispelled that one illusion to allow his opponents to see that the Captains got trolled. It doesn't prove he used illusions again to finish them off.

Dude, lol wasn't that point about the VC's? So what are you saying Hinomari can be at two places at the same time? When Hitsugaya stabbed Hinomari in the air..
a few slides later you see her standing up shocking 2 VC's few seconds later Aizen slices them? ( I can't say that i really understood that piece but what else is there then another illusion? or am i missing something)

And why would he use Illusion to finish them off? I said and i quote "And my point was if someone is not aware of the situation you can easily strike them without them noticing doh?"

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Dude, lol wasn't that point about the VC's? So what are you saying Hinomari can be at two places at the same time? When Hitsugaya stabbed Hinomari in the air..

I don't recall bringing the VC's into this. So I assume I must've missed your point.

Originally Posted by Farscape

a few slides later you see her standing up shocking 2 VC's few seconds later Aizen slices them? ( I can't say that i really understood that piece but what else is there then another illusion? or am i missing something)

Yes. I'm not really referring to this scene. I have however, intentionally referred to the scene afterwards where Aizen finishes off Shunsui and a few other captains at the same time. That's the scene in question which I'm debating whether or not hypnosis was used.

Originally Posted by Farscape

And why would he use Illusion to finish them off? I said and i quote "And my point was if someone is not aware of the situation you can easily strike them without them noticing doh?"

Seeing as how we're apparently referring to two different situations, I guess this no longer applies.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Farscape

Aizen didn't pwn Isshin what are you talking about? And he didn't bother after awhile because he was at his limit and he let the Hyogku take control. Nobody said that Isshin had any chance when he merged with the Hyogku.

And I am not denying Aizen's power i am mearly pointing out that he wasn't godlike. Getting Spanked by Isshin like it was nothing. Pls reread the chapter. And i am not getting mad at Aizen. Actually i find it very sad because even without his Shikai, he'd probably own alot of people. But because of his Shikai, he is overrated. Because he has no normal battles like for example Byakuya those are equal grounds thats my point. His shikai takes away a fair fight and with this i am not saying that other people don't have crazy abilities and advantages but they don't control peoples mind. Because of Aizen's shikai his intelligence gets underrated imo. At least in Naruto with Mangekyou you have a chance, to not get trapped and possible get out of it.. with kyoga you have zero chance to avoid it at least from the point of the info we have now and the only way to get out of it is to get close to him, yea good luck with that if you are his enemy :s

And aizen didn't own Urahara either because his arts won in the end which was planted with intellect. Now what?

And Isshin didn't state that, that was Gin.

Okay..I am not a Naruto fan. It is another manga, that bores me to tears..and after the first chapter. The anime is flasback hell, the only one that I have ever seen that has flasbacks in the middle of a flasback. Can I make but one request?

Please don't use an ability from another manga to explain the characters in Bleach. Please don't compare one Mangaka's story telling, with the another. Because that is a matter of preference--the one you like the best, is the guy who you will say is the best writer. Plus they are two diffrent people. Each tells the story in their own way. . . If you want me to understand. Explain Aizen's ability, by explaining his ability. Seriously can we discuss Bleach without the comparisons- please

Actually I was paraphrasing Isshin not quoting him verbatim. Gin also said it but now you have to people cosigning his ability then a crowd...a CROWD of people had to fight him and still got owned. I respect Aizen's intelligence, because I believe it's his greatest asset. Mindfuking Yama into owning himself was gold. Still no one owned Aizen, instead they all got pwned. Aizen has said himself and Gin agreed. KS doesn't work on everyone..Aizen has other abilities

Also you have a chance not to get trapped. It's just like that ability you brought up. If you can't get close to him. That's on you, not him.


You can't have it both ways, either his shikai is overrated or it's so hax it's an unfair advantage. It can't be both.
No Urahara didn't do it. Ichigo did. It wouldn't have worked if Ichigo had not weakened him. Urahara states this himself. So like Aizen > than the entire Gotei 13, plus Vaizards, Urahara, Yourichi and Isshin

It's been confirmed. Ichigo had to use a move that almost cut him in half and still didn't kill him. Merely weakened him a bit

Also it's like Aizen's said to SoiFon and it's been said many time. Shinigami fight with reiatsu. The ability is null, if the reiatsu level is higher. Only Aizen and Ichigo have been said to have twice the reiatsu of Captain. That means...Yama is beneath Aizen's level. That is why it took the combined efforts of everyone who lost and then Ichigo to beat him

I just thought of something. Yama's flame, was put out by superchunky who got pwned by Mashiro. Does that mean she's stronger than Yama

Aizen has more than just KS. KT demonstrated it in that arc. This cannot be denied but you get a gold star for trying. Jking...

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

It was an implication, certain words imply one thing therefore people assume it to be that thing, I know I use it as a way cheating people all the time
Also tad bit hypocritical when you made assumptions of what I was saying too don't you think

Fair enough..

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

? My point was that constantly reoccurring minor characters shouldn't be without substance otherwise it makes the story and characters seem flat. All characters can be developed around the same time without too much effort.

How come you didn't just say that the first time? I disagree, I think the characters do have substance. It's a character driven manga..but both are an opinion.

We will agree to disagree fair enough? (I am a bleach enthusiast, you aren't. To each his own)

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Furthermore after 3 long posts I am officially bored with arguing, attention span be damned.

You sure you don't smoke weed? JOKING...

So we're good now? Meaning it's no hard feelings right?

[Stormwhite]

If I'm not allowed to use other Manga authors as a reference, what can I use precisely? Western literature? Because I can make a case with that too, see "A Song of Ice and Fire", and the "Wheel of Time" for details - or "To Aru Majutsu no Index" and "Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria" for Japanese novels. Hell, even 'classics' such as "Catcher in the Rye" that typically focus on mostly one character and their development develop others - Phoebe Caulfield leaps to mind.

Where has it been stated that Yamamoto has less reiatsu than Aizen and/or Ichigo? Considering Yamamoto can take two of the stronger captains in SS at once without breaking sweat, surely that means he's more than twice as powerful as a regular captain?

Quite frankly though, the power levels do what Kubo tells them, they are not consistent. See Zaraki's fights for details.

EDIT: I misinterpreted what you wrote, nevermind the top half - rant wasted

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Stormwhite

See Zaraki's fights for details.

Zaraki is the weakest Captain next to Mayuri. Noi was just as weak.

Yammy doesn't count. Zero just means loser....



It's like this--Kubo is an individual and should be treated as such and I don't agree. You don't like his story telling and I live for it. I won't agree, don't beat a dead horse. There can be no winner...or you give me an example. You know, not everyone finds fault with Ichigo's character. You may hate him but trust me, there are some who really love him. It's not really worth the argument. For every fault you can find with him or Kubo's writing. Some fan will disagree.

Now facts like Aizen owning everyone, or anything like that and abilities. Is worth the argument. This manga is crap, this is better is a matter of preference.