Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I'll agree with Cloudedmind, the writers chose anime logic and ignored realistic consistency, just to scare the pirates.

I don't know about you guy but see how I have no real military training when it comes to weaponry. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and let this one slide. It's just a cannon after all and what are the odds that an unauthorized person getting their hands on a cannon located in their own base?

[Triple_R]

I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode.


A couple general comments:

1. Up until this episode, I didn't have a major problem with Pinion. I saw him as something of an Indiana Jones or Han Solo, and so I was cool with his rougher edges. But Pinion's greed and lust for power is truly overcoming him now. He's gradually becoming a monstrous person, imo.

2. I didn't have a problem with how Ledo was portrayed this episode. It's perfectly understandable, and it's honestly what I expected after last episode's dramatic reveals. I'm glad Ledo didn't just easily shake everything off in this episode. However, I hope that Ledo will be a little less shell-shocked in future episodes

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode.

I liked it for its humanity. "I will not accept a worldview that rejects me. Fuck the Hideauze."

A couple general comments:

1. Up until this episode, I didn't have a major problem with Pinion. I saw him as something of an Indiana Jones or Han Solo, and so I was cool with his rougher edges. But Pinion's greed and lust for power is truly overcoming him now. He's gradually becoming a monstrous person, imo.

And a monumental idiot. Without trade, he might as well be a squid himself, sitting on a treasure for which he has no use. And he gathers the worst people around him, like that won't bite him in the ass later.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I liked it for its humanity. "I will not accept a worldview that rejects me. Fuck the Hideauze."

I did like how Chamber's speech reinforced the value of his own existence. You're right, there is a strong element of humanity there.

And a monumental idiot. Without trade, he might as well be a squid himself, sitting on a treasure for which he has no use. And he gathers the worst people around him, like that won't bite him in the ass later.

Agreed. He's attracting cutthroat opportunists. A lot of those people will abandon at the first sign of serious trouble.

Ridget's support will be tinier, but it will also likely be more loyal.


And yeah, hoarding this stuff like he was a dragon defending his wealth isn't going to help anybody. He should use it in trade, and as negotiating pieces.

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I don't know about you guy but see how I have no real military training when it comes to weaponry. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and let this one slide. It's just a cannon after all and what are the odds that an unauthorized person getting their hands on a cannon located in their own base?

Ditto. It's not a world ending weapon for it's time. Neither is it a vehicle. If the weapon is loaded, all you should need is to point and shoot. That they were able to power it is probably as designed. That Pinion would use it right after repairs was alarming. Can they even read "Front Faces Enemy"?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

It wouldn't surprise me if they are an Evolver remnant as it looks like Gargantia make have been a Continental Union/Galactic Alliance remnant all along.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Well you do realize that according to that image you can see a squid even in the GA's symbol?

Perhaps people are trying too hard to see squids in every thing.
I'm not sure how much should I trust that.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

Ditto. It's not a world ending weapon for it's time. Neither is it a vehicle. If the weapon is loaded, all you should need is to point and shoot. That they were able to power it is probably as designed. That Pinion would use it right after repairs was alarming. Can they even read "Front Faces Enemy"?

Someone made a complaint about my comments about this earlier, rather hilariously. It's not a WMD. It doesn't require authentication codes and keys and button pressing.

Targeting takes more effort than firing. If you wanted to fire a missile from a military plane your biggest hurdle would be selecting it, and giving it a target. When it comes down to time to fire it, you still have a button that does it.

That "EMP" weapon was said to be closer to modern human weapons. The laser they fired looked to be purposefully weaker. Looks to me like the sort of thing one points and shoots. Having lasers and chrome doesn't make a bit of difference.

Edit: I agree that Pinion's choices are very poor. I don't necessarily think they're quite as horrible and death-deserving as a lot of other people...

He is setting himself up for failure though. I feel like Gargantia will ultimately have to save him from his demise.

[Piesum]

Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

[mikeomni]

We've got multiple coming of age stories, makes more sense if you put it in a just out of high school context

Ledo the protagonist has to outgrow his school (GA), his parents (Chamber & Kugel) then make his own decisions independently. Coming from a regimented environment where everything was black and white, his struggle is with ambiguity and too many options that have no optimal solution.

Ridget is your classic iinchou-type. She had a known environment with people above and below her while being groomed for a position of power. Graduating from that environment she has to rebuild everything she has previously gained (.e.g. from school to work place). It's not something you can do just by yourself. You have to trust others and earn their respect.

Pinion is your self-confident delinquent. He uses and abuses what's around him for gain. When he acquires power he is going to misuse it because his arrogance blinds him to his mistakes. Bad decision making will compound until it's sad conclusion. Whether he will be an example of what not to follow or how to recover from such tragic mistakes remains to be seen.

Amy is your happy-go-lucky / socialite child. She gets along well with people. But even well meaning people can do harm. Careless words/gestures cost the lives of several pirates to her regret. Imposing her outlook and opinion on others did not result in converting people to her point of view. She must deal with the disparity of her usual positive outlook and reality of what she can affect. At the moment she is set aside being emo, potentially to become a victim of events outside of her control. Somehow she must weather it, would like to see how this point gets illustrated.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed. He's attracting cutthroat opportunists. A lot of those people will abandon at the first sign of serious trouble.

That's exactly where I expect his hubris to hit him, Pinion is building his empire on glass foundations and shaky alliances.

Originally Posted by Piesum

Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

I don't think that's very likely if Chambers is anything to go by. He would just execute whatever directives left to him by the GA should situation arise. Besides it would be pretty anticlimactic if isn't Kugel.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

We've got multiple coming of age stories, makes more sense if you put it in a just out of high school context

Ledo the protagonist has to outgrow his school (GA), his parents (Chamber & Kugel) then make his own decisions independently. Coming from a regimented environment where everything was black and white, his struggle is with ambiguity and too many options that have no optimal solution.

Ridget is your classic iinchou-type. She had a known environment with people above and below her while being groomed for a position of power. Graduating from that environment she has to rebuild everything she has previously gained (.e.g. from school to work place). It's not something you can do just by yourself. You have to trust others and earn their respect.

Pinion is your self-confident delinquent. He uses and abuses what's around him for gain. When he acquires power he is going to misuse it because his arrogance blinds him to his mistakes. Bad decision making will compound until it's sad conclusion. Whether he will be an example of what not to follow or how to recover from such tragic mistakes remains to be seen.

Amy is your happy-go-lucky / socialite child. She gets along well with people. But even well meaning people can do harm. Careless words/gestures cost the lives of several pirates to her regret. Imposing her outlook and opinion on others did not result in converting people to her point of view. She must deal with the disparity of her usual positive outlook and reality of what she can affect. At the moment she is set aside being emo, potentially to become a victim of events outside of her control. Somehow she must weather it, would like to see how this point gets illustrated.

That's an interesting interpretation of this show, but what would the Hideauze represent in that context?

Hmmm, perhaps Chamber, Kugel and the GA represent parents and a schooling system that enforce young people to be competitive, a view that makes them see their peers as nothing more than enemies to defeat.

You must get better scores than them, you must outperform them and be on top and all that stuff.

But then Ledo realizes that they are humans too. And Amy shouts "Why fighting among ourselves? Let's be all friends!"

Oh well, I don't really know if that's what the writers are thinking

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's an interesting interpretation of this show, but what would the Hideauze represent in that context?

Hmmm, perhaps Chamber, Kugel and the GA represent parents and a schooling system that enforce young people to be competitive, a view that makes them see their peers as nothing more than enemies to defeat.

You must get better scores than them, you must outperform them and be on top and all that stuff.

But then Ledo realizes that they are humans too. And Amy shouts "Why fighting among ourselves? Let's be all friends!"

Oh well, I don't really know if that's what the writers are thinking

I would say the Hideauze are "gaijin" and their disconcerting ways. In a connected world there are forces that you must respect and potentially work with. They are people too, despite not following the same culture, therefore being barbaric. Or perhaps their barbarism is an evolution so far advanced to be incomprehensible. Damn America's Google and their cyborg ways! Their innovations will kill us all!

They could also be a catchall for outcasts from society that are necessary for everyone to progress.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

As a very broad oversimplified representation, the Hideauze could represent the outside world, the bad guys from fairy tales, the general "other" that school, parents, and Very Special Episodes warn about. On a basic level they're just the faceless antagonists, but with the last couple of episodes they've provided the existential question for Ledo of "everything he's been told is a lie." There's also an important concept in the idea of "they're like us" (as much as squidbeings can be). We get warned away from a lot of things when we're children, then we hit a certain age and everything is suddenly okay. (Alcohol, naughty dancing, porn... okay, so I'm not making a very strong comparison here, but it's still a part of the feeling that one might have when they reach a point of questioning what they've been told.)

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode....

Yeah, well, I guess I'm being consistent if I say that I found his speech (a) the highlight of the episode and (b) completely wrong and self-interested. I don't know for a fact that the Hideauze have abandoned "civilization." I don't even know for sure that the whale-squid have. But even if they have, it is not at all clear (as you say) that the two forms of humans can't co-exist --- as they do (or have up to now) on Earth.

Originally Posted by mikeomni

I would say the Hideauze are "gaijin" and their disconcerting ways. In a connected world there are forces that you must respect and potentially work with. They are people too, despite not following the same culture, therefore being barbaric. Or perhaps their barbarism is an evolution so far advanced to be incomprehensible. Damn America's Google and their cyborg ways! Their innovations will kill us all!

Yes! Some of the reactions to the Hideauze earlier in these threads did remind me of what many Japanese really think about gaijin.
_____

One thought: I wonder if Kugel is really there, or just his Machine Caliber?

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

As a very broad oversimplified representation, the Hideauze could represent the outside world, the bad guys from fairy tales, the general "other" that school, parents, and Very Special Episodes warn about. On a basic level they're just the faceless antagonists also, but with the last couple of episodes they've provided the existential question for Ledo of "everything he's been told is a lie," but the "they're like us" idea is important too. We get warned away from a lot of things when we're children, then we hit a certain age and everything is suddenly okay. (Alcohol, naughty dancing, porn... okay, so I'm not making a very strong comparison here, but it's still a part of the feeling that one might have when they reach a point of questioning what they've been told.)

Scratch my previous reply. I like your interpretation! Hideauze being the taboos and contradictions we must confront to "grow up" is a better angle.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Yeah, well, I guess I'm being consistent if I say that I found his speech (a) the highlight of the episode and (b) completely wrong and self-interested. I don't know for a fact that the Hideauze have abandoned "civilization." I don't even know for sure that the whale-squid have. But even if they have, it is not at all clear (as you say) that the two forms of humans can't co-exist --- as they do (or have up to now) on Earth.

The Space Hideauze are a largely open question, but we've seen a fair bit of the Earth Hideauze now. I think Chamber has good reason for arguing that the Hideauze has thrown away civilization.

What have they built? What is their culture? What is their form of government? Do they even have a culture or a government? On Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, how many are operating beyond the Safety Level, or even the Physiological Level?

When Ledo massacred these beings, I saw no sign of higher thinking from them. I saw no attempt to communicate with Ledo. I saw no discernible military tactics in their counter-attacks against Ledo. I saw no defensive mechanisms built for their nest.

None of this is to say that it's Ok to kill them if they're not attacking you. But I don't know why some people here assume the absolute best about the Hideauze with little, if any, evidence to point towards.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

Scratch my previous reply. I like your interpretation! Hideauze being the taboos and contradications we must confront to "grow up" is a better angle.

I had to go back and fix my grammar after re-reading it.

It's actually rather convenient for analysis that the Hideauze have no speaking characters and our main source of information of them is indirect... with only circumstantial evidence to fight against, I can come up with ideas that could work in a film interpretation class.

And despite what they've become (a cautionary tale in itself), it does appear that at first a significant number of people did choose to become symbionts... this is where the joke about becoming IRS agents would go. (Or any other job that carries a negative connotation.)

[FateAnomaly]

I see a bad end coming up for Pinion.

I don't see the hideauze as humans at all. Just because they have human cells doesn't make them humans. In the first place, to be willing to undergo the evolve procedure they have already chosen to give up their humanity.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well you do realize that according to that image you can see a squid even in the GA's symbol?

Perhaps people are trying too hard to see squids in every thing.
I'm not sure how much should I trust that.

Yes

I'm expecting a role reversal of Evolvers and Continental Union.

The human supporters of the Evolvers get abandoned and become bitter cultists.

Continental Union survivors become Gargantians thanking the Whalesquids for their contribution to their survival. The lightbug nanomachines.

Of course history is forgotten mostly. And it turns out the CU remnant are still the smart ones on Earth. Except for Pinion.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Yes

I'm expecting a role reversal of Evolvers and Continental Union.

The human supporters of the Evolvers get abandoned and become bitter cultists.

Continental Union survivors become Gargantians thanking the Whalesquids for their contribution to their survival. The lightbug nanomachines.

Of course history is forgotten mostly. And it turns out the CU remnant are still the smart ones on Earth. Except for Pinion.

I still don't understand how you can infer that from the symbols. Even if what you said was true, there isn't a point in history where the GA or their precursors would want to have a squid reference within their symbol.

Ergo I think there are reasonable doubts about all the other alleged squid symbolisms. The symbol seen near the Gargantians could be something completely unrelated to squids, and so could be the symbol of the cultists.

For example, did anyone ever suggest that the symbol on Sheik's chest is a squid?


And yet it's pretty close to that of the cultists.